LDS Why do Mormons really not understand the Cross?

dzheremi said:

Yes, I see the big difference, and the result is that you are placing the law of Moses above the sacrifice of Christ. That is the most horrible reading of the Bible that I can possibly think of. Christians read the Old (Testament) in the Light of the New, which is Christ Himself, Who gives light to every man that comes into the world. It seems that Mormons or at least Mormons like you read the NT through an OT lens (and a warped one, at that), as though Christ is basically nothing. I guess Moses is the way for you?

Christ is most definitely above the law of Moses, having fulfilled it in His coming, preaching, miracles, death, and resurrection. And in His second coming, which we look to. So your reading is incredibly wrong. There are many very good reasons we are not Jews, all of which are concluded in Christ; Christ Himself is the reason why we do not read the scriptures as you do.

Click to expand...

You said: "you are placing the law of Moses above the sacrifice of Christ." That is a false accusation I said no such thing nor did I even insinuate such a thing. The law of Moses was the law the Jews lived by at the time of Christ. Jesus Christ gave us the higher law on the sermon on the mount. It is a known fact that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus Christ for blasphemy. It is also a well known fact that there were others who were killed for blasphemy. There is also no doubt that Jesus suffered greater than any man could suffer and not die even before He died. We KNOW that the charge against Jesus Christ was blasphemy.

Jamesone5 said:

Fine, as you say---why exclude it if otherwise your claim to understand it.

Click to expand...

The cross is a similitude of Christ's suffering. We don't buy crossed and carry them around with us or worship them. We do remember Christ's body which He shed for us and His blood which He spilled for us:

This is what we believe:
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 56:2)

2 And he that will not take up his cross and follow me, and keep my commandments, the same shall not be saved.

He is the way said:

You said: "you are placing the law of Moses above the sacrifice of Christ." That is a false accusation I said no such thing nor did I even insinuate such a thing.

Click to expand...

You already are, though, by your own responses. Or are you going to change them now so as to no longer privilege the law of Moses and the Jews who were just following orders when they executed a 'blasphemer' Who was and is exactly Who He said He is, and hence was not committing blasphemy at all? Until you change your way of posting, I will not believe that you are doing other than that, because I take it you are not lying or misrepresenting the Mormon position. So we can Judaizing to the long list of Mormon heresies.

The law of Moses was the law the Jews lived by at the time of Christ. Jesus Christ gave us the higher law on the sermon on the mount. It is a known fact that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus Christ for blasphemy. It is also a well known fact that there were others who were killed for blasphemy. There is also no doubt that Jesus suffered greater than any man could suffer and not die even before He died. We KNOW that the charge against Jesus Christ was blasphemy.

Click to expand...

Again, my point is He was not actually guilty of it, hence the people who killed Him do not have the excuse of "This is what the Law of Moses says". The Law of Moses is overturned by the fulfillment of it in Christ. The Church has baptized all the things we have taken over from Judaism, hence deference to it as a religion or to its laws is a grave heresy. This was dealt with in the Bible itself, in the Book of Acts which preserves the ruling of the Apostolic Council in Jerusalem (c. 50 AD), wherein the Judaizers lost very definitively. This is where St. Paul famously withstood St. Peter to his face over the latter's Judaizing tendencies. This is a defining moment in the early life of the Christian Church and Christianity in general.

Please join the rest of us in the post-50 AD world.

Jamesone5 said:

Most versions do not list it as a"sin". If some of them do, it is an "eternal sin"---far different than sins of the law.

I go to Bible Gateway which probably has 30 or so English versions.

Now with this display of arguing over something that is really small, you have shown me how badly you want to be just right--even if you have to change scripture to pretend you are right.

Not a way to determine God's Truth by any means.

Click to expand...

I now see how you are thinking. According to you, most versions do not list blaspheming against the Holy Ghost as a "sin". OK, if somehow you are thinking that "it" is an "eternal sin", and not a "sin of the law", then at least I can see your logic. I don't follow it, but I can see it. Too me "all" sins are "all" sins, sins of the law, eternal sins, sins of omission, sins of passion are "sins". Only 1 of them is not forgiven by Jesus.

BTW are there any other "eternal sins" that I am not aware of?

Thanks for the discussion, but I will not respond again to this subject. Your right it is just too small.

dzheremi said:

You already are, though, by your own responses. Or are you going to change them now so as to no longer privilege the law of Moses and the Jews who were just following orders when they executed a 'blasphemer' Who was and is exactly Who He said He is, and hence was not committing blasphemy at all? Until you change your way of posting, I will not believe that you are doing other than that, because I take it you are not lying or misrepresenting the Mormon position. So we can Judaizing to the long list of Mormon heresies.



Again, my point is He was not actually guilty of it, hence the people who killed Him do not have the excuse of "This is what the Law of Moses says". The Law of Moses is overturned by the fulfillment of it in Christ. The Church has baptized all the things we have taken over from Judaism, hence deference to it as a religion or to its laws is a grave heresy. This was dealt with in the Bible itself, in the Book of Acts which preserves the ruling of the Apostolic Council in Jerusalem (c. 50 AD), wherein the Judaizers lost very definitively. This is where St. Paul famously withstood St. Peter to his face over the latter's Judaizing tendencies. This is a defining moment in the early life of the Christian Church and Christianity in general.

Please join the rest of us in the post-50 AD world.

Click to expand...

So are you saying that Jesus being a Jew was not subject to the law of Moses even though the rest of the Jews were? Blasphemy was against the law of Moses. Although Jesus did not lie when He said that He, the son of man, would sit on the right hand of God, it was counted as blasphemy to the Jews. That is what Jesus was charged with by the high priest. The penalty for blasphemy was death. Those who killed Christ were just following orders. They didn't know who He was. All of this is Biblical.

Jamesone5 said:

Fine, as you say---why exclude it if otherwise your claim to understand it.

Click to expand...

So are you saying that we have to include the cross on our buildings in order to understand it?

IOW if we started to include the cross on our buildings, then you would agree that we understand the meaning of it?

dzheremi said:

You already are, though, by your own responses. Or are you going to change them now so as to no longer privilege the law of Moses and the Jews who were just following orders when they executed a 'blasphemer' Who was and is exactly Who He said He is, and hence was not committing blasphemy at all? Until you change your way of posting, I will not believe that you are doing other than that, because I take it you are not lying or misrepresenting the Mormon position. So we can Judaizing to the long list of Mormon heresies.



Again, my point is He was not actually guilty of it, hence the people who killed Him do not have the excuse of "This is what the Law of Moses says". The Law of Moses is overturned by the fulfillment of it in Christ. The Church has baptized all the things we have taken over from Judaism, hence deference to it as a religion or to its laws is a grave heresy. This was dealt with in the Bible itself, in the Book of Acts which preserves the ruling of the Apostolic Council in Jerusalem (c. 50 AD), wherein the Judaizers lost very definitively. This is where St. Paul famously withstood St. Peter to his face over the latter's Judaizing tendencies. This is a defining moment in the early life of the Christian Church and Christianity in general.

Please join the rest of us in the post-50 AD world.

Click to expand...

The members of the Church of Jesus Christ are not Judaizers, never have been, and never will be. We know Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses with his atoning sacrifice and that the new testament/covenant was established in the place of the old testament, and that we now live in the light of the new testament, and the light of Christ, and the Law of Christ.

You are misreading, and misinterpreting He is the Way.

He is the way said:

So are you saying that Jesus being a Jew was not subject to the law of Moses even though the rest of the Jews were?

Click to expand...

I am saying that Jesus Himself is the fulfillment of the law. What He did, What He said, What He established is our law, and it is superior to and a fulfillment of the law of Moses. Again, "You have heard it said ____ (old, false understanding), but I say unto you ____ (true meaning)" is Him literally correcting the boundaries and understanding of the law of Moses, and it is binding upon everyone.

His entire life is why we do not live under the law ourselves. His coming freed us from it. To again quote part of an anaphora belonging to the Ethiopians (useful here, as they are the most outwardly 'Hebraic' in character of all the apostolic churches), "Let us not be circumcized like the Jews, for we know that He Who had to fulfill the law has come."

Blasphemy was against the law of Moses.

Click to expand...

He did not commit blasphemy, so this is immaterial.

Although Jesus did not lie when He said that He, the son of man, would sit on the right hand of God, it was counted as blasphemy to the Jews.

Click to expand...

And the Jews were quite simply wrong about that.

That is what Jesus was charged with by the high priest. The penalty for blasphemy was death. Those who killed Christ were just following orders. They didn't know who He was. All of this is Biblical.

Click to expand...

So what? A great deal of things that are 'Biblical', when placed into the hands of people who don't know what the heck they're talking about, lead to horrible blasphemies like placing God Himself -- Jesus Christ -- under the control of the Mosaic law, as you have done. Such people and such thinking does not respect the New Testament, wherein the promised Messiah of the Old Testament came to us as Jesus Christ, Who revealed Himself also to be the Son of God (see: the Transfiguration, His baptism, etc.), and was persecuted, tried, and put to death on the cross on account of that. And you are correct that doing so was simply following the law of Moses as they knew it. My point, however, is that their knowledge of whatever principle they had is absolutely obliterated by Christ Himself. That's why what He says goes, and when He says that He has come to fulfill the law (Matthew 5:17), we take it seriously and count it as fulfilled in His life, death, and resurrection.

The old law has passed away, but Christ Who lives forever has established the way for us. There is now no recourse to what was done before Him, no matter how much we may venerate the patriarchs of the OT (which we do in the traditional churches), because again what He did -- what He preached, what He established -- is what we follow.

Peter1000 said:

The members of the Church of Jesus Christ are not Judaizers, never have been, and never will be. We know Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses with his atoning sacrifice and that the new testament/covenant was established in the place of the old testament, and that we now live in the light of the new testament, and the light of Christ, and the Law of Christ.

Click to expand...

Tell that to Moses Is The Way over here.

You are misreading, and misinterpreting He is the Way.

Click to expand...

Am I, or is his only argument "This was what they did according to the law of Moses", as though Christ Himself is not there before them?

What of the Jews who followed Him and the way He gave them already? What of saints and apostles Peter, Paul (perhaps especially Paul, as He was a pharisee; he knew his religion quite well), Mark, and the rest? They were Jews are well. Are you or He Is The Way going to try to tell the thread that they also should have crucified the Lord for His 'blasphemy', which He did not even commit to begin with? After all, as observant Jews, why wouldn't they be bound by the law of Moses?

That's the thing, Peter: You can't have this pride of place for the old law and also be a Christian. Even if you remain within an entirely Jewish paradigm (as the Church did for quite a while), you're going to run into these conflicts between the law of Moses and the faith given to us by Jesus Christ Himself. And it's not because Christ is a transgressor of the law (God forbid), but because the law is insufficient to be salvific as it is practiced. This is why 'works of the law' do not save anyone.

I'm merely pointing out to HITW and the thread in general that when you pick a side in this conflict, you better pick the right one if you don't want to be on the side of those who were clamoring for His death on that day. It is better to be at the foot of the cross with the Theotokos and all of the saints.

dzheremi said:

I am saying that Jesus Himself is the fulfillment of the law. What He did, What He said, What He established is our law, and it is superior to and a fulfillment of the law of Moses. Again, "You have heard it said ____ (old, false understanding), but I say unto you ____ (true meaning)" is Him literally correcting the boundaries and understanding of the law of Moses, and it is binding upon everyone.

His entire life is why we do not live under the law ourselves. His coming freed us from it. To again quote part of an anaphora belonging to the Ethiopians (useful here, as they are the most outwardly 'Hebraic' in character of all the apostolic churches), "Let us not be circumcized like the Jews, for we know that He Who had to fulfill the law has come."



He did not commit blasphemy, so this is immaterial.



And the Jews were quite simply wrong about that.



So what? A great deal of things that are 'Biblical', when placed into the hands of people who don't know what the heck they're talking about, lead to horrible blasphemies like placing God Himself -- Jesus Christ -- under the control of the Mosaic law, as you have done. Such people and such thinking does not respect the New Testament, wherein the promised Messiah of the Old Testament came to us as Jesus Christ, Who revealed Himself also to be the Son of God (see: the Transfiguration, His baptism, etc.), and was persecuted, tried, and put to death on the cross on account of that. And you are correct that doing so was simply following the law of Moses as they knew it. My point, however, is that their knowledge of whatever principle they had is absolutely obliterated by Christ Himself. That's why what He says goes, and when He says that He has come to fulfill the law (Matthew 5:17), we take it seriously and count it as fulfilled in His life, death, and resurrection.

The old law has passed away, but Christ Who lives forever has established the way for us. There is now no recourse to what was done before Him, no matter how much we may venerate the patriarchs of the OT (which we do in the traditional churches), because again what He did -- what He preached, what He established -- is what we follow.

Click to expand...

Yes we follow the higher law that He preached in the sermon on the mount. We also follow the two great commandments of LOVE which He preached:

(New Testament | Matthew 22:36 - 40)

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

However we are no longer under the law as we are under grace yet we should NOT sin:

(New Testament | Romans 6:1 - 15)

1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Jamesone5 said:

Anyone can claim anything and pretend they understand the significance of what they are talking about.

Mormons seem to talk a lot about what they say they understand, but neglect to truly understand.

What is a "crossed", by the way?

You do not even check you own spelling to see if you are referring to the right thing.

Click to expand...

Well you should know I meant crosses. Everyone here makes mistakes. Sometimes baptism signifies Christ's suffering:

(New Testament | Mark 10:35 - 40)

35 ¶ And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

Jamesone5 said:

I finally figured out through God's Holy Spirit, just why Mormons do not understand the message of the Cross.

Simple---they believe their spiritual brother Jesus was the one on that Cross and died for them. It's like they are saying "nice thing you did for me on that Cross brother Christ and I will take it from here"
Hardly what it truly is for us Christians who believe God came down and died for us.

It is really another case with Mormons, where their beliefs and doctrines handed down to them by JS are so conflicting.

Answered my very own question in the OP, through the Holy Spirit.

Click to expand...

Yes, God the Father sent His Son down to take on the sins of the world as per the Bible:

(New Testament | Acts 3:26)

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

(New Testament | Romans 8:3 - 6)

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.


(New Testament | Galatians 4:1 - 9)

1 NOW I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

dzheremi said:

Tell that to Moses Is The Way over here.



Am I, or is his only argument "This was what they did according to the law of Moses", as though Christ Himself is not there before them?

What of the Jews who followed Him and the way He gave them already? What of saints and apostles Peter, Paul (perhaps especially Paul, as He was a pharisee; he knew his religion quite well), Mark, and the rest? They were Jews are well. Are you or He Is The Way going to try to tell the thread that they also should have crucified the Lord for His 'blasphemy', which He did not even commit to begin with? After all, as observant Jews, why wouldn't they be bound by the law of Moses?

That's the thing, Peter: You can't have this pride of place for the old law and also be a Christian. Even if you remain within an entirely Jewish paradigm (as the Church did for quite a while), you're going to run into these conflicts between the law of Moses and the faith given to us by Jesus Christ Himself. And it's not because Christ is a transgressor of the law (God forbid), but because the law is insufficient to be salvific as it is practiced. This is why 'works of the law' do not save anyone.

I'm merely pointing out to HITW and the thread in general that when you pick a side in this conflict, you better pick the right one if you don't want to be on the side of those who were clamoring for His death on that day. It is better to be at the foot of the cross with the Theotokos and all of the saints.

Click to expand...

You are still misreading HITW. I know he does not believe Christ was a transgressor of the law.

Both HITV and I are at the foot of the cross with Mary, the mother of Jesus, the Son of God, and all the saints. Let your heart not be troubled, that is the side we pick.

Jamesone5 said:

I finally figured out through God's Holy Spirit, just why Mormons do not understand the message of the Cross.

Simple---they believe their spiritual brother Jesus was the one on that Cross and died for them. It's like they are saying "nice thing you did for me on that Cross brother Christ and I will take it from here"
Hardly what it truly is for us Christians who believe God came down and died for us.

It is really another case with Mormons, where their beliefs and doctrines handed down to them by JS are so conflicting.

Answered my very own question in the OP, through the Holy Spirit.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but the spirit you are listening to told you the wrong thing about what we believe. Never in 68 active years in the Church of Jesus Christ have I heard anyone say, "nice thing you did for me on the cross, brother Jesus, and I will take it from here".

BTW, you continually berate persons for typing errors, which we all make by mistake. It does not make you a superior person to berate someone because of a typing error.