QUOTE="ArmyMatt One Who is unending and eternal love. that's the character of the God Who would create hell.
Well, actually, since you and I share the same belief in this - i.e. that God hasn't created a place called "hell," but rather it is simply His love experienced upside down (torment) - then I can say that love wouldn't do that.
except the cure is on those suffering.
if they accept God, He accepts them. those in hell are only those who eternally reject God as He showers them with His love.
And this is really the heart of the matter, isn't it? Besides all the speculations on this issue regarding the character of God, the nature of hell (fire literal or not) or any other thing, the real issue comes down to free-will theodicy and whether or not a soul has the ability to repent in the next life. It comes down to whether a soul is locked into sin forever with no ability to change, or if that soul still has potential for change.
no, because He forgives them, treats them with goodness, etc. they refuse His forgiveness and goodness, but it's still upon them.
Same as above.
no, His will can't be thwarted. everyone will be resurrected in the end, as sin, death, and the devil are what He came to save us from (and He did, we are all saved from those things). that has never been the issue. the issue is what to do with those
who eternally desire sin, death, and the devil. and that's where hell comes in.
When you are blind, you cannot see what you truly want or what you are. What you are saying is that once a person truly sees (in the presence of Christ) so that he realizes that all he has chased in this life is illusion, that the true desire he was looking for is standing right in front of him, that his sin has hurt himself and others, he will nonetheless not be allowed to repent. That his case is unsolvable by the Great Physician. I don't understand why. Is this the case that C.S. Lewis stated when he said "the doors of hell are locked from the inside"? That a soul could be so locked into itself that it would not be able to turn, even when all the blinders and obstructions are removed?
We are made for The Good. We are made for God, and our souls are truly desiring Him, even when they desire something that is an illusion of The Good. It is innate in all mankind. If that is the true state of the soul, that we were made for God, bear His image, and in the deepest part of our true selves, want Him alone (which is what we are created for), then how could a soul see that which it has desired all its life and turn from it?
it will, those in hell will know the Truth. so yes, His desire will come to pass.
I guess I should have posted the whole verse.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
He already succeeded. Hell is not an eternal separation from God, as God is omnipresent.
Nope. If even one is lost, then the Cross has failed in its objective, which was that all men be saved and rescued from the tyranny of death. And if this is an objective sucess, then you have to say that it was never the object of the Cross that all be saved and the Calvinists are correct.
nope, all will live as the damned are Resurrected in the end. not the issue.
Being damned is not living. That is not life. That is death, and Christ conquered death once and for all time, unto the ages of ages. If death - as a state of separation from God - continues to exist for all time, then death has one. And I can hear your objection now "But they are not separated from God because God is everywhere." That's not the kind or manner of separation I am speaking of. We are made for union in love with God. We shall be ever drawn into His love, deeper and deeper, without ever exhausting it. Not experiencing this is separation from Him True life is Christ and true life is union with Him. Any state of existence in the next life, whether it be physically separation, mental separation, spiritual separation, anything which creates a distance from Him in which we are not experiencing Him fully - is death. Any experience of Him that is not joy, bliss, and peace is not life, it is death.
it means all, but it will torment those who don't want to be reconciled with God.
Again, you have to prove that a rational soul with a truly free will (that is, unencumbered by blindness, internal corruption of sin, or any other deceit) would choose against itself and pick torment over bliss. Only an insane person would make such a choice. I would have to be convinced that a soul seeing Christ in all His love and glory would rather choose suffering than to immediately repent in sorrow and submit to whatever punishment the Lord would give for its sins.
it means all. even those in hell experience God's mercy.
and again, yes He died for all, that's why the damned are also raised.
I am blabberflastered at such an answer. If Christ dies for all, then all must be saved. If He died for all, then if any are not saved, then you really cannot say that He died for them. And then, why raise them, if such is true, knowing that they will only suffer forever. Better it would be for them to have never been created. In fact, better it would have been for the whole cosmos to have never been created. What then was the purpose of Creation - to create beings who would only suffer forever? All actions are taken to a foreseen end. All actions are part of a plan which has a goal - a telos. Was the plan then that the majority of created beings shall suffer forever with no possibility of remediation from that state? Because if the all-knowing God foreknew this and yet went ahead with this plan, then the only thing you can surmise from this is that it was His plan all along that the telos of Creation would be billions suffering torment forever.
if aionios doesn't mean eternal, then are the righteous only for age-long life? when God is called eternal and aionios is used, is He only an age-long God? how do we know from the time which is which?
Age long within the ages of ages. If eternity is ages of ages, then perhaps the writer was speaking of the length of the next age to come, with the understanding that all the ages are going to be eventually folded up into God as Christ surrenders His Kingdom to the Father and God becomes "all in all." Which leads to yet another question: how can God be "all in all" if not all want to be in Him? He can only be "all in some" and nothing to the rest who reject Him.
and, I gotta say, the fact that you asked these questions which are usually addressed every single time universalism gets brought up, shows how little you listen, how you aren't really here to debate or discuss things with us, and how you really should take this elsewhere.
I do listen. I do think about what you say. I find the arguments for a loving heavenly Father who would create, permit, or condone such suffering forever to be without merit. I find they are not in line with the definition we have of love, given to us by our Father who created languages and word to mean specific things. I find the excuses for an eternal hell which are made in free-will theodicy arguments, reduce God to a powerless Being watching helplessly as His children destroy themselves eternally, which is a kind of blasphemy of His power and glory to me. I kind of feel the same frustration.
However, you are correct in one thing: I need to stop posting in this regard and go on with my life. My spiritual father has suggested that doing any form of apologia, even defending the good stuff which is truly Orthodoxy, is not good for me and that I should work on the Prayer of Quiet. While it is not a direct order, I need to obey him. Therefore, this is my last post on this thread or this subject. I think by now we both know where we stand and neither one of us is going to budge an inch.
I will continue to pray, read, and seek regarding this, but further Internet discussions have to cease. Thank you for your continued interactions with me.
A Blessed Lent to you and all here.