Theology of Plague

dqhall · Mar 9, 2020

summerville said:
South Korea is 82% Presbyterian Christians.. You think God's got it in for them?

This virus has killed fewer than 4000 people. China has approved treatment plans that get results. Other nations may do the same.

Remember Jesus taught that the wise man built his house upon the rock. When the rain came down in sheets, the wind gusted at gale force, streams rose, yet the house did not collapse. The ignorant man built a house on sand. During the storm it collapsed (Matthew 7:24-27). Disasters are natural occurrences. How well people prepare for what is coming is up to them. God knows everything. Seek God.

South Korea has a GDP close to the size of agnostic Russia’s GDP. God blessed South Korea more than atheist North Korea. Praise God!

ZNP · Mar 9, 2020

summerville said:
Viruses don't discriminate. What copper coins?

Each town would take a census by collecting a coin for every person, perhaps the local rabbi would do this and then send those coins to the king. That would be like saying each person needs to give a penny and then you count the pennies. Copper and Silver have excellent antibacterial properties and sending bags of coins would not be a way that disease would be transmitted throughout the country. Instead David sent census takers throughout the country, they would go from house to house, therefore they would pick up any and every possible disease and then bring it into the homes where young children and elderly were.

summerville · Mar 9, 2020

dqhall said:
This virus has killed fewer than 4000 people. China has approved treatment plans that get results. Other nations may do the same.

Remember Jesus taught that the wise man built his house upon the rock. When the rain came down in sheets, the wind gusted at gale force, streams rose, yet the house did not collapse. The ignorant man built a house on sand. During the storm it collapsed (Matthew 7:24-27). Disasters are natural occurrences. How well people prepare for what is coming is up to them. God knows everything. Seek God.

South Korea has a GDP close to the size of agnostic Russia’s GDP. God blessed South Korea more than atheist North Korea. Praise God!

That's nice. Did Israel have any coins during the time of King David?

I know they minted coins to honor king David later in history, but did they have coins in the 10th century BC?

dqhall · Mar 9, 2020

summerville said:
That's nice. Did Israel have any coins during the time of King David?

I know they minted coins to honor king David later in history, but did they have coins in the 10th century BC?

There was one House of David inscription reported at Tel Dan from a time after David. There is a lesser known theory of a David inscription on the Moabite Stone/Mesha Stele. The earliest coins were from about 600 BC centuries after David. They may have bartered pieces of metal during earlier times. This has nothing to do with plagues.

ZNP · Mar 9, 2020

dqhall said:
There was one House of David inscription reported at Tel Dan from a time after David. There is a lesser known theory of a David inscription on the Moabite Stone/Mesha Stele. The earliest coins were from about 600 BC centuries after David. They may have bartered pieces of metal during earlier times. This has nothing to do with plagues.

13 And he spake unto Ephron in the audience of the people of the land, saying, But if thou wilt, I pray thee, hear me: I will give the price of the field; take it of me, and I will bury my dead there. 14 And Ephron answered Abraham, saying unto him, 15 My lord, hearken unto me: a piece of land worth four hundred shekels of silver, what is that betwixt me and thee? bury therefore thy dead. 16 And Abraham hearkened unto Ephron; and Abraham weighed to Ephron the silver which he had named in the audience of the children of Heth, four hundred shekels of silver, current money with the merchant.

Silver has even better anti bacterial properties than copper.

dqhall · Mar 9, 2020

ZNP said:
13 And he spake unto Ephron in the audience of the people of the land, saying, But if thou wilt, I pray thee, hear me: I will give the price of the field; take it of me, and I will bury my dead there. 14 And Ephron answered Abraham, saying unto him, 15 My lord, hearken unto me: a piece of land worth four hundred shekels of silver, what is that betwixt me and thee? bury therefore thy dead. 16 And Abraham hearkened unto Ephron; and Abraham weighed to Ephron the silver which he had named in the audience of the children of Heth, four hundred shekels of silver, current money with the merchant.

Silver has even better anti bacterial properties than copper.

Louis Pasteur found he could kill bacteria by boiling water. Pasteur was Christian and not Jewish. Pasteur discovered vaccines as well.

1213 · Mar 9, 2020

mindlight said:
It looks like a judgment but what do we need to confirm that. A voice from heaven and a few lightning flashes. Or is this a wait and see what happens and who dies and then assess in years to come if more facts come to light. Of course that sort of reflection may have to wait till we are with the Lord

I don’t think we need to know is it a judgment. It is enough if we understand would we deserve a judgment. If we do, then we should repent and reject wrong things.

HatGuy · Mar 9, 2020

mindlight said:
So my questions are these:

1) Can a plague be a judgment or is it just a random feature of a broken world?

2) Is Corona Virus a judgment of sort (beginning in a godless state which tried to cover it up, spreading through Blasphemous cults in South Korea and onto a major false religious centre in Qoms and then to an increasingly secularised and self sufficient Europe) or just a symptom of a broken world?

3) Is the fear that accompanies plague itself a feature of a judgment , a judgment magnifier or just the reaction to a situation that falls too far outside our comfort zones?

Basically can plague teach us anything about God and what might the current Pandemic be saying to us?

I think these are great questions and think they can be resolved by realising that a fallen / broken world is the result of a judgement already given. So, in a sense, plagues are always a judgement - but of the judgement already given when mankind fell.

This really resolves the issue in my mind as it puts everyone in the same basket ("all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God", Rom 3:23) and stops the self-righteous (bordering on racial) prejudice even taking place on this very thread.

I think (3) is really just the fear of dying - again, a result from the judgement given when mankind fell.

A Realist · Mar 9, 2020

mindlight said:
Christians definitely interpreted black death in this way.

Those same Christians had a habit of killing cats because they thought cats were tools of witches. Killing the cats caused the rat population to explode. The exploding rat population led to the plague.

These same Christians also needed something to blame, so they blamed the Jews...and persecuted and massacred them.

Was this God's doing?

Hazelelponi · Mar 9, 2020

I believe things of this nature are allowed by God for his purposes, and can affect believers and unbelievers alike.

As a whole, this novel coronavirus isn't that bad all things considered, it affects mainly the elderly but it's not even close to killing them all. Italy has the worlds second highest elderly population (23%) and is still under a 5% death rate of those affected, so it's not really a societal game changer regardless, though sad.

All things work together for the good of those who love Him, whether that is in life or death...

martymonster · Mar 9, 2020

summerville said:
Do you really think God would send a plague or a hurricane or tsunami or earthquake to punish people?

Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Amo 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

ZNP · Mar 9, 2020

1213 said:
I don’t think we need to know is it a judgment. It is enough if we understand would we deserve a judgment. If we do, then we should repent and reject wrong things.

I think it is a judgement on our lifestyle, not necessarily sin. Bubonic plague was due to uncleanness. A virus is not due to lifestyle, but a pandemic is. The rapid and widespread infection rate is due to lifestyle.

For example you can find antique door knobs that were bronze, copper and silver. These metals are antibiotic. But now we have stainless steel, aluminum and chrome. These metals are not.

PaulCyp1 · Mar 9, 2020

The causes of diseases are well understood, and they are not supernatural.

mindlight · Mar 9, 2020

Sam91 said:
There are a lot of Christians in the medical profession. A sizeable proportion of my church are GP's, paeditricians, consultants, medical students.

Your post made me pray and these are my thoughts. My experience of Americans and Europeans gives me a different stereotype for each. People react to stereotypes but sometimes they are useful to make a point so long as you do not try to squeeze unique persons into them when they do not fit them personally.

Americans talk more about God and many may indeed have a love for Him. Europeans are acting more Christian caring for the poor, the weak and the sick but have forgotten why and many call themselves atheists while acting like Christians are called to. With doctors I worry that European doctors really have no theological rationale or foundation for caring for the weak and sick and yet in practice they sacrifice themselves for that anyway. American doctors often have a worked out reasons why they are in medicine but in practice often seem more money motivated to me.

A virus like this is a test. A secular doctor will ultimately burn out if he has no Divine fire and strength to draw on and an untested Christian who is in practice more money motivated will find that in risking his life to save others the money becomes irrelevant and he will learn to love his work as a calling or he will find that he does not want to risk himself for others at all and it was after all just a lucrative career choice.

mindlight · Mar 9, 2020

ZNP said:
I think it is a judgement on our lifestyle, not necessarily sin. Bubonic plague was due to uncleanness. A virus is not due to lifestyle, but a pandemic is. The rapid and widespread infection rate is due to lifestyle.

For example you can find antique door knobs that were bronze, copper and silver. These metals are antibiotic. But now we have stainless steel, aluminum and chrome. These metals are not.

Interesting observation. So the rootlessness of modern existence and the love of making far flung connections that lack real intimacy or depth makes us vulnerable to things that happen on the far side of the world without adequately preparing us for them. The speed of these connections means that we laugh at jokes from the far side of the planet one moment but so also we may die of their diseases in the next. The viruses and the shared experiences travel at the same speed down the connections we build. We build with a view to momentary impressions and not with a view of making something that we can pass on unaltered to the next generations. And so the quality of what we build is lacking and we miss little details like plague resistant door knobs.

mindlight · Mar 9, 2020

PaulCyp1 said:
The causes of diseases are well understood, and they are not supernatural.

The immediate natural cause can be scientifically examined. the probability of one of the billions of bat diseases crossing the species frontier to a human being however was remote and not a common occurence. There is a human cause in a predilection by Chinese to eat wild animals. There is supernatural cause to everything since God who is greater than his creation determined the natural laws of the universe and can block or allow the conclusions of their processes or even demonstrate deeper laws than those of nature. You may say it is just luck that this rare disease makes an unprecedented jump at this moment in this place with such dangerous implications but in practice it is not just luck. God is Sovereign

martymonster · Mar 9, 2020

A Realist said:
Those same Christians had a habit of killing cats because they thought cats were tools of witches. Killing the cats caused the rat population to explode. The exploding rat population led to the plague.

These same Christians also needed something to blame, so they blamed the Jews...and persecuted and massacred them.

Was this God's doing?

Oh I don't know, was this God's doing?

Jer 25:8 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Because ye have not heard my words,
Jer 25:9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

There are many more examples too.

mindlight · Mar 9, 2020

dqhall said:
God gave us free will. It is ours to try to use it for good and not evil. You should seek God before it is too late. Jesus taught his disciples to be watching and aware of their surroundings.

It may seem like God judged China for his/her sins. Is this God’s mercy for their efforts to find healing? The virus is disappearing from China:
China is recording so few new coronavirus infections that South Korea looks like the new center of the epidemic

Cromwell said Put your trust in God and keep your powder dry. I find that a good way to resolve the Sovereignty - Free will debate. In practice we should give glory to God for all but act like it all depends on us.

Chinese Communism has come out looking like the villain and the hero of this drama. On the one hand their system encouraged lower officials to be deceitful to higher ones in order to maximise their promotion prospects. They never want to pass bad news up the line and so they suppressed key facts which allowed this virus to spread early on all around the world.

BUT since they realised their mistake they have acted exactly right. They have the power and control to quarantine whole provinces and cities and have done so with great effect. They have mobilised resources across their vast country with great efficiency to turn a catastrophe into a triumph. So actually I am quite impressed.

Democracy may have been more honest about this early on. In the developed world they may have better health services but quarantine effectiveness will not be anything like Chinas unless they are truly enforced with guns and the fear of the state. I worry that we may value our freedoms over our lives and only realise our mistake too late. There is no individual freedom and there is no freewill without life.

mindlight · Mar 9, 2020

Jipsah said:
The Koreans have a monopoly on blasphemous cults now? Dang!

Not a monopoly no but the Shincheonji sect says that only its leader can interpret the bible and is out of synch with mainstream convictions. It is a form of MOntanism with a leader who claims to be the second coming of Jesus who will lead 144000 of his people to heaven. That these sect form a significant proportion of the cases in South Korea is an indication of judgment because they do in practice blaspheme God with their services and their teaching rather than glorify Him.

A Realist · Mar 9, 2020

martymonster said:
Oh I don't know, was this God's doing?

Jer 25:8 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Because ye have not heard my words,
Jer 25:9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

There are many more examples too.

So in your thinking, your god used Christians to kick off a plague, and then used them blame and massacre Jews because of the plague?

OK, then.

mindlight · Mar 9, 2020

dqhall said:
This virus has killed fewer than 4000 people. China has approved treatment plans that get results. Other nations may do the same.

Remember Jesus taught that the wise man built his house upon the rock. When the rain came down in sheets, the wind gusted at gale force, streams rose, yet the house did not collapse. The ignorant man built a house on sand. During the storm it collapsed (Matthew 7:24-27). Disasters are natural occurrences. How well people prepare for what is coming is up to them. God knows everything. Seek God.

South Korea has a GDP close to the size of agnostic Russia’s GDP. God blessed South Korea more than atheist North Korea. Praise God!

the number of Christians is nearer 26% and includes some sects that are more Korean than Christian. 60% of Russians self identify as Christian. Korea has been blessed by God but most people there are atheists or atheist Buddhist (ie non theistic).

mindlight · Mar 9, 2020

1213 said:
I don’t think we need to know is it a judgment. It is enough if we understand would we deserve a judgment. If we do, then we should repent and reject wrong things.

Oh I would rather know one way or the other. But repentance of our sins is definitely a good place to start unpicking the approaching tidal wave of judgment that seems at first sight to threaten to sweep away the righteous with the wicked, the saved with the unsaved.

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