IS THE WILL OF HUMANS CONTROLLED BY GOD?

Kermos said:

Now, regarding Romans 2:4-5, you have added the phrase "choosing not to repent", yet Paul wrote "the kindness of God leads you to repentance", so you miss the point that repentance is something God does in people; therefore, the question in Romans 2:4 puts a limiting factor on the sentence in Romans 2:5.

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What limiting factor are you talking about? God’s kindness leads them to repentance but because of their stubbornness they are CHOOSING not to repent. This means that God has enabled them to repent and they are CHOOSING not to.

Martha and Thomas had a choice to make. They could either choose to believe or choose to reject the idea. If I asked you do you want this lamp am I not asking you to make a choice because I didn’t use the word choose in the sentence?

Francis Drake said:

You are obviously trying to drown people with your overwhelming volume of cut and paste repeats.
You constantly parrot the same unbiblical drivel, despite the number of times your falsehoods have been refuted by myself and many other contributors.

Unlike your deeply offensive accusations against me and others here, I do not regard you as an unbeliever, just a deluded soul who is in deep spiritual bondage, to be pitied, not condemned.

Given that this is the same old same old, I'm not going to waste time answering it.

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Francis Drake said:

Your record is cracked Kermos, it's endlessly repeating itself and people have stopped listening. Try a different disc, this is boring.

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The Word of God is precious, and the Word of God is worthy of all praise!

The Word of God declares His immutable intrinsic quality with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) thus God chooses man yet man does not choose God.

The Word of God specifies that His choosing of man includes salvation with "I chose you ou of the world" (John 15:19) in the same passage.

The Word of God proclaims that any good work is manifest as being wrought in God (John 3:21), so man can do no good work apart from God.

The Word of God explains that He is the True Vine (John 15:1), and that "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

The Word of God places the True Vine explanation (John 15:1-6) along with the God choosing men not men choosing God specification (John 15:16-19) surround the passage where the Word of God lovingly states "I have called you friends" (John 15:15).

In your daring self will of claiming to choose God (2 Peter 2:9-10) you shake your fist in defiance of God's declaration of His exclusive inherent attribute of choosing men unto salvation while He simultaneously notifies men of man's impotence in choosing God (John 15:16, Romans 9:20-23).

In your daring self will of claiming to choose God (2 Peter 2:9-10) your words convey that you are no friend of Jesus because you deny the "you" in John 15:16 applies to you; therefore, the "you" in John 15:15 does not apply to you.

In your daring self will of claiming to choose God (2 Peter 2:9-10) you claim to be superior to the apostles.

In your daring self will of claiming to choose God (2 Peter 2:9-10) you try to steal the glory from God (Isaiah 42:8, John 15:16), and stealing is sin (Exodus 20:15).

Your mouth is stopped (Romans 3:19). You cannot make a Godly refution because you cannot refute the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

So, Francis Drake and to @CharismaticLady and @BNR32FAN

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

BNR32FAN said:

What limiting factor are you talking about? God’s kindness leads them to repentance but because of their stubbornness they are CHOOSING not to repent. This means that God has enabled them to repent and they are CHOOSING not to.

Martha and Thomas had a choice to make. They could either choose to believe or choose to reject the idea. If I asked you do you want this lamp am I not asking you to make a choice because I didn’t use the word choose in the sentence?

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There is no mention ANYWHERE in scripture of choosing to repent. Repentance is to "think differently afterwards".

The first nature of man exposed and that nature is carnal without the intervention of the Living God (post in this thread) as well as the point of Romans 2:4-5 including the rebuke of people that despise repentance being from God!

Paul did not write that they were repentant in Romans 2:4.

Paul's words in Romans 2:4, when taken with repentance is of/by/from God in man with accurate BIBLICAL CITATIONS (post in this thread) to which you were replying, it is clear that Paul is stating the source of repentance is God for God grants repentance.

Your words "This means that God has enabled them to repent and they are CHOOSING not to" DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS the apostle's words "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance [that leads] to life." (Acts 11:18).

The scripture does not state "Martha and Thomas had a choice to make" - that is you imposing your imagination upon scripture.

Belief is synonymous with faith is synonymous with persuasion, and persuasion is a state of being.

Your lamp example is non sequitor - it does not fit, so let's keep with the Word of God.

When Jesus asked "Do you believe this?", He asked whether Martha's state of being with respect to believing in Him being the resurrection and life,
and she answered "yes". Belief in Jesus was her declared state of being. There is no mention of "choice" implicit nor explicit.

In John 20:25-29, neither Jesus nor Thomas mention "choose" or it's conjugates - not explicitly nor implicitly. Lord Jesus does say "Blessed [are] they who did not see, and [yet] believed".

God grants for God's children to think differently after the Word of God is already at work in we believers.

Belief in Jesus in we believers is the work of God (John 6:29, Ephesians 2:8-10).

You are trying to steal from God by making both repentance and belief a work of man.

Stealing is sin (Exodus 20:15).

Thieves will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

timothyu said:

Yeah I quite often see them on televangelist tv.

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By what you are responding to, I'm not sure if you are for them, or against them. There is nothing wrong is using the airways to spread the gospel. It is one way that in the last days knowledge will increase. But, personally, I have always had a serious problem with the seed faith message in the prosperity movement. (Give to Get) I won't watch them. We are commanded not to even have lunch with an extortionist.

1 Corinthians 5:
11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

BTW, did you get anything out of my post other than your comment? How are we to continue our dialog without actual direct comment? I would also like to see your scriptural basis for your thoughts.

Kermos said:

There is no mention ANYWHERE in scripture of choosing to repent. Repentance is to "think differently afterwards".

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I'm glad you brought that up Kermos. Let's look at what "Repent" actually means from Strong's Concordance.-

◄ 3340. metanoeó ►
Strong's Concordance
metanoeó: to change one's mind or purpose
Original Word: μετανοέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metanoeó
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an-o-eh'-o)
Definition: to change one's mind or purpose
Usage: I repent, change my mind, change the inner man (particularly with reference to acceptance of the will of God), repent.
(Take note of the 'I' here, Strong puts the onus entirely on us to make that choice of changing our minds)
HELPS Word-studies
3340 metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards").

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from meta and noeó
Definition
to change one's mind or purpose

(And just to correct your claim that the thinking involved is God's doing not ours, here's the breakdown of that process.)-
3539 noiéō (from 3563 /noús, "mind") – properly, to apply mental effort needed to reach "bottom-line" conclusions. 3539 (noiéō) underlines the moral culpability we all have before God – for every decision (value-judgment) we make. This follows from each of us being created in the divine image – hence, possessing the inherent capacity by the Lord to exercise moral reasoning.

As can be seen, according to Strong's, the responsibility to change our thinking is ours not God's

Nowhere in Strong's definition is there any indication whatsoever that God chooses repentance on our behalf. The requirement is that we chose to turn around and think different than previously.

But that leaves you with a serious problem, because God commands all men to repent.
Acts17v30So indeed God, having overlooked the times of ignorance, now commands all men everywhere to repent,

Now if repentance is something that God controls, then why haven't all men repented!

But what does Peter say?
2Peter3v9The Lord does not delay the promise, as some esteem slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

Peter states that God's will is that no one should perish, but all should repent. If that's true, then how come all men haven't repented?

Again we see Timothy saying the same thing-
1Tim2v3This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God clearly wants all men to be saved. If God is in control of who gets saved and he wants that for all men, why aren't all men haven't repented?

Kermos said:

There is no mention ANYWHERE in scripture of choosing to repent. Repentance is to "think differently afterwards".

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Ok these people Paul is talking to in Romans 2, why are they unrepentant? Is it because God has not granted them the ability to repent?

Kermos said:

There is no mention ANYWHERE in scripture of choosing to repent. Repentance is to "think differently afterwards".

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“But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place-unless you repent.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:4-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Again another CRYSTAL CLEAR example of us having the CHOICE to repent or not.


“Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Is Jesus telling people to repent who have been chosen by God and compelled to repent or is He telling people who are incapable of repentance because they are not chosen by God? Either way it doesn’t make any sense.


“I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:21-22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Jesus gave Jezebel time to repent but she DOES NOT WANT TO. I don’t know how much more clear you can get than this.


“Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:2-3‬ ‭NASB


“Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Repentance is clearly a choice. It’s indisputable. You keep quoting John 15:16 out of context. Nowhere in the entire chapter does Jesus say or indicate in any way that we cannot choose to believe and repent. You claim your not a Calvinist, what beliefs of your’s are different from John Calvin’s? They seem very similar.

And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved. (Acts 2:47)

Many people on the broad way that leads to destruction add to scripture and subtract from scripture in their self will by daring to try to nullify the Word of God in those people's claim to choose God but they can only choose a false god (Matthew 7:13, Revelation 22:18-19, 2 Peter 2:9-10, John 15:16).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

In trying to encourage Godly character in men, James seems to be rather confused about God's own character. (Or at least the character of Calvin's god)

James3v9With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, those being made according to the likeness of God. 10Out of the same mouth proceed forth blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so.
In total randomness, out of the same mouth, Calvin's god blesses some men with the ability to repent, and curses others to remain damned for eternity.
How can any man know this fickle God?

11Does the spring pour forth out of the same opening both fresh and bitter?
12Is a fig tree able, my brothers, to produce olives? Or a vine, figs? Neither is a salt spring able to produce fresh water.

17But the wisdom from above is indeed first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and of good fruits, impartial, sincere.
Whether Calvin's god will be full of wrath, or full of mercy, who knows. Whether peaceable or angry, who knows.
Instead of impartiality, Calvin's god is extremely partial following rules no man can possibly know.

God must comply to give a person salvation when the person chooses Jesus of the person's own free will, so the person is involved in a transaction with God by which the person purchases salvation by means of trade. Truly, truly, a person cannot choose Jesus because Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), but the preceding sentence exposes that self-willed persons do not believe in the free gift of God (John 10:10, John 17:2, Ephesians 2:8-9) because it is according to the self-willed person's manipulation of choice or belief, the self-willed persons theology (2 Peter 2:9-10), that the self willed person obtains salvation - in reality the preceding sentence exposes those self willed persons daringly deadly deception (2 Timothy 3:13). Salvation is not a transaction, salvation is a transition, a translation, a conversion, a new creature formed by God for God through God in God (John 3:3-8, 2 Corinthians 5:17). Salvation is grace, unearned love, for the King of Glory states "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

Kermos said:

God must comply to give a person salvation when the person chooses Jesus of the person's own free will, so the person is involved in a transaction with God by which the person purchases salvation by means of trade.

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There you go again making the most illogical and bizarre nonsense about salvation.
If someone hands out free food at a soup kitchen, and people come to eat it, they have purchased absolutely nothing.
They have just made the freewill choice to accept a gift of food. Nobody dragged them off the streets and forced food into them.

They heard the good news of free food, and responded accordingly.
Likewise we heard the good news, (gospel) of Jesus and responded accordingly.

Dead simple, except when Calvinists steal that good news and replace it with lies.

Kermos said:

And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved. (Acts 2:47)

Many people on the broad way that leads to destruction add to scripture and subtract from scripture in their self will by daring to try to nullify the Word of God in those people's claim to choose God but they can only choose a false god (Matthew 7:13, Revelation 22:18-19, 2 Peter 2:9-10, John 15:16).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

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You completely ignored the scriptures I provided from Revelation 2 & 3 that prove you wrong. The evidence here in overwhelmingly indisputable.


“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:20-22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Some persons say "I chose you" to Jesus and "I accepted Jesus" and "I opened my heart to Jesus", yet each of these phrases is the person boasting in something the person did or does - an action by the person - a work of the person. Truly, truly, it is written "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9), but the preceding sentence exposes that self-willed persons do not believe in the free gift of God (John 10:10, John 17:2, Ephesians 2:8-9) because it is according to the self-willed person's manipulation of choice or belief, the self-willed persons theology (2 Peter 2:9-10), that the self willed person obtains salvation - in reality the preceding sentence exposes those self willed persons daringly deadly deception (2 Timothy 3:13). Each of those phrases deny the instrinsic quality which Jesus, Lord and God, reserved unto Himself with His words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

Kermos said:

Some persons say "I chose you" to Jesus and "I accepted Jesus" and "I opened my heart to Jesus", yet each of these phrases is the person boasting in something the person did or does - an action by the person - a work of the person. Truly, truly, it is written "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9), but the preceding sentence exposes that self-willed persons do not believe in the free gift of God (John 10:10, John 17:2, Ephesians 2:8-9) because it is according to the self-willed person's manipulation of choice or belief, the self-willed persons theology (2 Peter 2:9-10), that the self willed person obtains salvation - in reality the preceding sentence exposes those self willed persons daringly deadly deception (2 Timothy 3:13). Each of those phrases deny the instrinsic quality which Jesus, Lord and God, reserved unto Himself with His words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

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Then Jesus gave Jezebel time to repent but not the ability to repent? He expected her to repent knowing that it was impossible for her to do so, then punished her for failing to meet His impossible expectations?

How can a man love enemy as self unless he has chosen to walk to a completely different drummer than to the one that leads the world of man? He would have himself committed if he did not first understand why he would do such a thing, the wisdom behind it. It is not man's natural nature to do such as thing but God's will loves all as self. God has always given us choice, but then again many don't even know there is a choice like that because no one sowed the seed.. It seems those who claim they have no choice are the ones ignorant of the choice, or more conveniently are more prone to self justify the evils that they do by saying nothing they do is in their hands..

Many persons on the broad way that leads to destruction add to scripture and subtract from scripture in those person's self will by daring to try to nullify the Word of God in those person's claim to choose God, but they only chose a false god (Matthew 7:13, Revelation 22:18-19, 2 Peter 2:9-10, John 15:16, John 8:44).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

Scripture states that God wants all men to be saved
1Tim2v3This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Scripture states that Jesus paid the price for the sins of the whole world, not just a few Christians.
1Jn2v2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
According to Calvinism, God alone makes the choice of who can repent and who can't.
If that's true, then why did he claim he wanted to save everybody, and then pay for everybody, but then consign the vast majority to eternal damnation.

Calvin's god is exceedingly fickle, random, and makes no logical sense.

I'm gonna stick the God of love I find in the scriptures.

Certain people try to steal from God by making either repentance and/or belief a work of man (the claimed choice toward God is a work), yet God grants repentance as well as belief/faith is a work of God (Acts 11:18, John 6:29). Such people try to steal the glory from God (Isaiah 42:8). You shall not steal is a commandment of God (Exodus 20:15), so when a person steals something such is sin. Thieves will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

God is our believer's merciful Benefactor, and we believers are unworthy beneficiaries (post in this thread). This post includes the Word of God which shows that (1) God works belief/faith in man, (2) God wrings fruit in man, (3) God causes the new birth in man, and (4) God chooses man while man cannot choose God.

Repentance is of/by/from God in man with accurate BIBLICAL CITATIONS (post in this thread)

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

Kermos said:

Such people try to steal the glory from God

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So Eve had no choice but to screw up and God had no choice but to banish them for His actions?

John the Apostle recorded where the Word of God lovingly states "I have called you friends" (John 15:15) is surrounded by the Word of God's explanation of The True Vine (John 15:1-6) prior to the "friends" passage along with God choosing men not men choosing God specification (John 15:16-19) after the "friends" passage; meanwhile, many people in their daring self will claim to choose Jesus (2 Peter 2:9-10), yet their words ("accepting Jesus" or some such) convey that they are no friend of Jesus because they deny the "you" in John 15:16 applies to them, so the "you" in John 15:15 does not apply to them; in other words, since those self willed people reject the "you" in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) then it follows that the "you" in the immediately previous sentence spoken by Jesus "I have called you friends" (John 15:15) is rejected by those same self willed people. Since the Word of God says "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) in the prior passage which includes fruit (actions), then Lord Jesus is already with us believers to "do what I command you" (John 15:14); therefore, for a person to be a friend of Jesus such requires that Jesus does the choosing alone. Persons in their self will are no friends of Jesus.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!