IS THE WILL OF HUMANS CONTROLLED BY GOD?

Kermos said:

Let us visit the very precise definition of sin.

Sin: not a part, missing the mark.

hamartía Strong's 266 is a feminine noun derived from Strong's 1 which is "a" meaning "not" and Strong's 3313 which is "méros" meaning "a part, share of" - properly, no-share ("no part of"); loss (forfeiture) because not hitting the target; sin (missing the mark).

Sin is "not a part" of God, or said another way, "missing the mark" established by God, like missing the bull's eye of a target, sin is when a person does not do as God commands whether ignorantly or not.

The Apostle Paul wrote of missing the mark with "I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." (Romans 7:7).

This all relates as to why Paul didn't write that he'd just choose to stop coveting, instead Paul indicates that he became aware of his sinfulness through the commandment.

Thus Paul indicates it is sin not to obey the commands of God.

The Apostle Peter wrote "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

The Apostle Peter wrote "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10)

Peter wrote "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation"

AND "the Lord knows how" "to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment"
SO the Lord God's control over salvation is amplified in Peter's writing
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If God controls our salvation and He cannot fail to do His will, none of the New Testament would be necessary.

Paul wrote that the law could not accomplish God’s will in man. It did not bring about His righteousness. So if God is controlling that we are doing his will, how come we don’t see people doing so.

Peter also wrote important points about the unrighteous

DARING: the unrighteous do things like claim they choose Jesus contrary to the Lord's words "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)
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In the unrighteous person's daring self-will, they are condemned

THEREFORE, "self will" is a cause unto damnation in the New Testament.
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You seem to like to avoid the word sin.

HTacianas said:

That leads us to a question brought up by Romans 8:

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Did God predestine some to love Him, or predestine those who would love Him?

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It is best to stick to the words describing what is predestined and not change the promise as Calvinists do. What is predestined? To become conformed to the image of His son. Heaven is not predestined. Salvation is not predestined. Whosever will can he predestined to become like Jesus. That is the plan of God. No other plan was his goal.

So the question to be answered by those who count themselves predestined is if they are like Jesus or not. That is the measure by which one sees if they themselves are predestined according to that verse you quoted.

Thomas White said:

Repentance is the realization.

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Of what?

timothyu said:

Repentance is change. Rejection of the oppressive self serving will of man to the giving will of God. If slaves, servants and women in Jesus' time could figure that out it wasn't such a reach.

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Never read anyone in the Bible describe loving yourself as oppressive. Never saw any wicked man act “oppressed” as they pushed their own desires forward. They seem to all feel the pleasure of their own desires being gratified. If the self were oppressive, Jesus wouldn’t have described giving it up as taking up a cross.

The Romans 9 progression is (1) The early part of God's plan revealed, (2) Individual salvation completely dependent on God with NO work by man in salvation, (3) The grafting of the Gentiles into Israel, but Paul does not out leave individual salvation, (4) the final sentence of the chapter returning to individual salvation "HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED" (post in this thread)

Individuals make up a people, so Romans 9 is about individiuals, and it is about individual salvation.

Self willed people daringly oppose that which is written by Paul.

BNR32FAN said:

Romans 9 is not about individuals being chosen for salvation. It’s about God’s calling to the Gentiles. The portion you quoted is referring to the vessels of destruction whom God had endured with much patience and as a result of their disobedience God chose to make an example of them.

“On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ' MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ' BELOVED.'" " AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ' YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD." Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, " THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY." And just as Isaiah foretold, " UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH." What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:20-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

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The first nature of man exposed and that nature is carnal without the intervention of the Living God (post in this thread)

BNR32FAN said:

How do you explain this message in Romans 2?

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Paul says that it is because of man’s stubbornness not because of his inability.

“But as for Israel He says, " ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Is God stretching out His hands to people who are incapable of obedience with the expectation that they will do something they are incapable of doing?

“"I, the LORD, am your God, Who brought you up from the land of Egypt; Open your mouth wide and I will fill it. "But My people did not listen to My voice, And Israel did not obey Me. "So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart, To walk in their own devices. "Oh that My people would listen to Me, That Israel would walk in My ways! "I would quickly subdue their enemies And turn My hand against their adversaries. "Those who hate the LORD would pretend obedience to Him, And their time of punishment would be forever. "But I would feed you with the finest of the wheat, And with honey from the rock I would satisfy you."”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭81:10-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“The LORD said, "Because they have forsaken My law which I set before them, and have not obeyed My voice nor walked according to it, but have walked after the stubbornness of their heart and after the Baals, as their fathers taught them,"”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭9:13-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“For I know your rebellion and your stubbornness; behold, while I am still alive with you today, you have been rebellious against the LORD; how much more, then, after my death?”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

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Both the promise of the Holy Spirit and the declaration by Lord Jesus that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

Both the prayer of Lord Jesus that incorporates all believers in all time and the declaration by Lord Jesus that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

LORD JESUS' PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FULFILLING

In John chapter 14, John chapter 15, and John chapter 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17).

Among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when people at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

THE SUPPER IN JOHN CHAPTERS 13 TO 17

Both the promise of the Holy Spirit (John 15:26) as well as God's exclusive role in choosing man (John 15:16) occur in the self-same supper recorded in John chapters 13 - 17.

LORD JESUS' PRAYER FOR US BELIEVERS

Part of the prayer of Lord Jesus during the supper is thus "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20).

Jesus said "through their word" which means that "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" are words that the Apostle John recorded. John recorded the Word of God, and the Word of God says "for those also who believe in Me through their word", and He preceded these words with "I do not ask on behalf of these alone", so the Word of God during the supper is not just for the people in the room, but the Word of God during the supper is for all believers in all time.

In another part of the prayer, Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), says "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours" (John 17:9).

Jesus said "I do not ask on behalf of the world", so Jesus uses "the world" to mean different things such as when He also said "the world" in John 3:16.

THE WORD OF GOD IS TRUE

Based on the above stated facts, Lord Jesus was addressing all believers in all time, so just as the promise of the Holy Spirit (John 16:7-15) is binding upon all believers in all time also binding are the Word of God, Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

Furthermore, since Lord Jesus said "through their word" (John 17:20), this also makes "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) binding on all believers in all time.

People who claim to choose or accept Jesus are actually denying Him for such people deny the Word of God.

BNR32FAN said:

Who was Jesus speaking to? He was speaking to His 11 faithful apostles who He literally sought out and chose to follow Him. Jesus was not speaking to all who accept Christ.

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CharismaticLady said:

The world did not chose God, but God chose the whole world to die for. I know you probably weren't taught that, but it is the arrogant who claim they were personally chosen. Why them and not Hitler? Or was Hitler chosen, and he couldn't do anything to undo being chosen? Will heaven be filled with chosen unrighteous sinners? This false doctrine has turned the grace of God into lasciviousness.

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Dorothy Mae said:

If God controls our salvation and He cannot fail to do His will, none of the New Testament would be necessary.

Paul wrote that the law could not accomplish God’s will in man. It did not bring about His righteousness. So if God is controlling that we are doing his will, how come we don’t see people doing so.

Never met an atheist yet who claims this.
Not every word Jesus spoke to them applies to us.

You don’t like the word “sin” do you?

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Kermos said:

Both the promise of the Holy Spirit and the declaration by Lord Jesus that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

Both the prayer of Lord Jesus that incorporates all believers in all time and the declaration by Lord Jesus that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

LORD JESUS' PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FULFILLING

In John chapter 14, John chapter 15, and John chapter 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17).

Among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when people at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

THE SUPPER IN JOHN CHAPTERS 13 TO 17

Both the promise of the Holy Spirit (John 15:26) as well as God's exclusive role in choosing man (John 15:16) occur in the self-same supper recorded in John chapters 13 - 17.

LORD JESUS' PRAYER FOR US BELIEVERS

Part of the prayer of Lord Jesus during the supper is thus "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20).

Jesus said "through their word" which means that "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" are words that the Apostle John recorded. John recorded the Word of God, and the Word of God says "for those also who believe in Me through their word", and He preceded these words with "I do not ask on behalf of these alone", so the Word of God during the supper is not just for the people in the room, but the Word of God during the supper is for all believers in all time.

In another part of the prayer, Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), says "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours" (John 17:9).

Jesus said "I do not ask on behalf of the world", so Jesus uses "the world" to mean different things such as when He also said "the world" in John 3:16.

THE WORD OF GOD IS TRUE

Based on the above stated facts, Lord Jesus was addressing all believers in all time, so just as the promise of the Holy Spirit (John 16:7-15) is binding upon all believers in all time also binding are the Word of God, Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

Furthermore, since Lord Jesus said "through their word" (John 17:20), this also makes "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) binding on all believers in all time.

People who claim to choose or accept Jesus are actually denying Him for such people deny the Word of God.

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Just remember, especially when siting verses about no one can snatch them out of His hand, that when you see the words "You have given Me" Jesus is only referring to His apostles.

Dorothy Mae said:

Salvation is not predestined.

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As a whole it is in God's eyes. His Kingdom come, His will be done in earth as it is in Heaven. That's the plan.

Dorothy Mae said:

If the self were oppressive, Jesus wouldn’t have described giving it up as taking up a cross.

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Of course He would. The world doesn't take kindly to those who reject it's ways. Just as it persecuted Him for His Gospel of the Kingdom, it shall likewise give us a hard time. It knows the difference.

Oddly many of those who are supposed to know the Kingdom don't see the division. Of course when the official church rejoins the world I guess it would be in their best interest to not advertise that division lest they be outwardly seen as hypocrites like the Pharisee priests were.

timothyu said:

As a whole it is in God's eyes. His Kingdom come, His will be done in earth as it is in Heaven. That's the plan.

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No it is not in God’s eyes. He said whosoever will. His will is not always done. Not everyone follows His plan.

Dorothy Mae said:

Not everyone follows His plan.

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No they don't but that doesn't mean He doesn't have a plan.

Why do people in their 'self' focused default mode always think everything is about us?

Kermos said:

The Apostle Paul wrote "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified" (Romans 8:28-30).
……..…………...…..

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I've deleted your erroneous interpretation of the above passage to keep to the point.

Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), so that puts all the choice according to God along with absolutely zero choice for man.

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There is absolutely nothing in this scripture, especially when you look at the context, to indicate the disciples were being called to salvation!

When Jesus said, "You did not choose me, but I chose you!", it was a call to various Jewish believers to leave their fishing nets and other jobs etc. and become his disciples and follow him. They were already Godly believers before they met Jesus, and there is no record of Jesus trying to get them saved.
Additionally, they clearly did have free choice to remain with him or to go.-
John6v66From that time on, many of His disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him. 67So Jesus asked the Twelve, “Do you want to leave too?” 68Simon Peter replied, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life.

The scripture does not indicate that God looks down some corridor of time.

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So God is limited by time like man is then?
What happened to "Before Abraham was, I am...."

You vainly attempt to delegitimize the fullness and reduce the context of Romans 8:28-30.

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No, just dumping Calvinist garbage so the scripture gets the light of day.

May Lord Jesus Christ open your eyes to His glorious Truth!

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Et tu, my brother!

Kermos said:

The first nature of man exposed and that nature is carnal without the intervention of the Living God (post in this thread)

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Then God would not be rendering to each man according to his deeds, He would be rendering to each man according to His choice. Each man’s deeds would be irrelevant and would ultimately be the result of God’s choosing which would also make God the one responsible for each person’s deeds unless of course you believe that man is capable of repentance without being elected by God. If not then God’s expectations are impossible for the unelect to meet and therefore God’s judgement upon the unelect is unjust. Then this becomes a situation of incapability not stubbornness and unwillingness as Paul makes very clear here in Romans 2.

Kermos said:

In John chapter 14, John chapter 15, and John chapter 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17).

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The word world can refer to many things but is often used to describe the ungodly multitude of man. The context of that statement is intended as those who are worldly cannot receive the Holy Spirit.


World

G2889

Lemma:

κόσμος

Transliteration:

kósmos

Pronounce:

kos'-mos

Part of Speech:

Noun Masculine

Language:

greek

Description:

1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3

3) the world, the universe

4) the circle of the earth, the earth

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

timothyu said:

No they don't but that doesn't mean He doesn't have a plan.

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He has a plan but since people don’t do his will, we can’t base anything on them doing so.

Why do people in their 'self' focused default mode always think everything is about us?

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Pretty much no one thinks about us not doing His will. He thinks about it a lot.

Kermos said:

Both the promise of the Holy Spirit (John 15:26) as well as God's exclusive role in choosing man (John 15:16) occur in the self-same supper recorded in John chapters 13 - 17.

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Not that this is a big deal or anything but I just wanted to point out that the Last Supper ended in chapter 14.

“but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:31‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Chapters 15-17 Jesus and His 11 faithful apostles are walking to the olive groves in Gethsemane. Chapter 18 they arrive at their destination where Jesus will be betrayed by Judas.

A closer examination of John 15 actually destroys Calvin’s theology. Eternal security contradicts John 15. The Father cuts off every branch IN CHRIST that does not bear fruit. Jesus tells His 11 faithful apostles to remain in Him which according to Calvin’s theology it would be impossible for them to fail to remain in Christ. The implications in John 15 are overwhelmingly against Calvin’s theology.

timothyu said:

Of course He would. The world doesn't take kindly to those who reject it's ways. Just as it persecuted Him for His Gospel of the Kingdom, it shall likewise give us a hard time. It knows the difference.

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You call the crucifixion a “hard time?”

Oddly many of those who are supposed to know the Kingdom don't see the division. Of course when the official church rejoins the world I guess it would be in their best interest to not advertise that division lest they be outwardly seen as hypocrites like the Pharisee priests were.

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The real church is the only one of interest actually.

HTacianas said:

That leads us to a question brought up by Romans 8:

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

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Where is there a problem with whosoever will can be a part of His plan? I don’t see a disagreement.

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

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And, is there a problem with this? Whosoever will can be predestined to be conformed to the image is his some.

Did God predestine some to love Him, or predestine those who would love Him?

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God predestined no one to
love or hate Him because a robot cannot love at all. Whosoever will love Him can do so. He predestined whosoever will to
he like Jesus.

CharismaticLady said:

A little of both I think. God predestined one nation to be His chosen people, but not all those who were among the predestined actually loved Him. The children of Israel were God's elect, yet some were cut off due to unbelief. Gentiles are not predestined, but foreknown.

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Chosen for what is the question. Chosen to give the world the Messiah, not chosen for Heaven.

Btw, if the Gentile Christians don’t produce fruit, Jesus said he cuts them off.