Why did Jesus choose 12 men.

ViaCrucis

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Who were subsequent apostles, you say in the "early church"? I admit to none but the 12, minus Judas plus Paul.

Barnabas is called an apostle in Acts of the Apostles 14:14
Apollos is called an apostle in 1 Corinthians 4:6-9
Andronicus and Junia are both called apostles in Romans 16:7
Silas and Timothy are spoken of as apostles in 1 Thessalonians (c.f. 1 Thessalonians 1:1 and 2:7)

So going purely from the text of Scripture, we have these.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Mark Quayle

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Barnabas is called an apostle in Acts of the Apostles 14:14
Apollos is called an apostle in 1 Corinthians 4:6-9
Andronicus and Junia are both called apostles in Romans 16:7
Silas and Timothy are spoken of as apostles in 1 Thessalonians (c.f. 1 Thessalonians 1:1 and 2:7)

So going purely from the text of Scripture, we have these.

-CryptoLutheran
I stand corrected concerning Barnabas, though I'm not altogether convinced Acts refers to him in particular as an Apostle, but it seems to. The other references are not as plain. Nevertheless, I was thinking of others after that time.

"In some versions of the Bible the word “messenger” or similar is used in english rather than apostle. However in the Greek the word apostolos appears with these references. A literal reading in English does not always convey apostle, but a reading in Greek does."
How Many Apostles are Mentioned in the Bible? - Peace
 
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ViaCrucis

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I stand corrected concerning Barnabas, though I'm not altogether convinced Acts refers to him in particular as an Apostle, but it seems to. The other references are not as plain. Nevertheless, I was thinking of others after that time.

"In some versions of the Bible the word “messenger” or similar is used in english rather than apostle. However in the Greek the word apostolos appears with these references. A literal reading in English does not always convey apostle, but a reading in Greek does."
How Many Apostles are Mentioned in the Bible? - Peace

If we are looking at the Greek

Acts 14:14 -
ἀκούσαντες δὲ οἱ ἀπόστολοι Βαρναβᾶς καὶ Παῦλος διαρρήξαντες τὰ ἱμάτια αὐτῶν εἰσεπήδησαν εἰς τὸν ὄχλον κράζοντες

Romans 16:7 -
ἀσπάσασθε Ἀνδρόνικον καὶ Ἰουνίαν τοὺς συγγενεῖς μου καὶ συναιχμαλώτους μου οἵτινές εἰσιν ἐπίσημοι ἐν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις οἳ καὶ πρὸ ἐμοῦ γέγονασιν ἐν Χριστῷ

1 Corinthians 4:9 -
δοκῶ γάρ ὅτι ὁ θεὸς ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀποστόλους ἐσχάτους ἀπέδειξεν ὡς ἐπιθανατίους ὅτι θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καὶ ἀγγέλοις καὶ ἀνθρώποις

1 Thessalonians 2:6 -
οὔτε ζητοῦντες ἐξ ἀνθρώπων δόξαν οὔτε ἀφ᾽ ὑμῶν οὔτε ἀπ᾽ ἄλλων δυνάμενοι ἕν βάρει εἶναι ὥς Χριστοῦ ἀπόστολοι

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Mark Quayle

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If we are looking at the Greek

Acts 14:14 -
ἀκούσαντες δὲ οἱ ἀπόστολοι Βαρναβᾶς καὶ Παῦλος διαρρήξαντες τὰ ἱμάτια αὐτῶν εἰσεπήδησαν εἰς τὸν ὄχλον κράζοντες

Romans 16:7 -
ἀσπάσασθε Ἀνδρόνικον καὶ Ἰουνίαν τοὺς συγγενεῖς μου καὶ συναιχμαλώτους μου οἵτινές εἰσιν ἐπίσημοι ἐν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις οἳ καὶ πρὸ ἐμοῦ γέγονασιν ἐν Χριστῷ

1 Corinthians 4:9 -
δοκῶ γάρ ὅτι ὁ θεὸς ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀποστόλους ἐσχάτους ἀπέδειξεν ὡς ἐπιθανατίους ὅτι θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καὶ ἀγγέλοις καὶ ἀνθρώποις

1 Thessalonians 2:6 -
οὔτε ζητοῦντες ἐξ ἀνθρώπων δόξαν οὔτε ἀφ᾽ ὑμῶν οὔτε ἀπ᾽ ἄλλων δυνάμενοι ἕν βάρει εἶναι ὥς Χριστοῦ ἀπόστολοι

-CryptoLutheran
Yes, I am familiar with the Greek word, but I am skeptical of our facile take on the matter.
 
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Cis.jd

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Is there an inherent functional difference between the genders that God created, that gave rise to His choice.

If you believe this, can you give scriptural support for this assertion.

Or did Jesus just follow what was culturally appropriate?

Subsequent Apostles in the early church were also men.

My aim is not to be a protagonist - I am hoping for constructive respectful dialogue.

May His Love cover this thread.

I think he just wanted 12.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Completely unrelated. For the first 2 chapters Paul is addressing the Judiazers, and his whole discourse is in context to this main point, i.e. one does not need to be a Jew to be saved. THus, he merely cites a few dichotomies to express the range and gamut of who is eligible for salvation. He could've included, young & old, short & tall, rich & poor, jocks & suits, etc... For, let's face it, if there is no gender difference anymore in God's eyes, does this mean that homosexuality is not recognized and denounced by him anymore, ...obviously not. Egalitarians take this pericope completely out of context, it's solely about the universal eligibility for redemption, in contrast to the Jews demanding observance of the Law.
For, in Colossians 3:11, he makes the same point but excludes the juxtaposition between men & women. Showing how incidental to his point that the specific comparisons were, it was the range that he was trying to convey.

Thanks for this - it is my take also but I thought it pertinent to raise it.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Is there an inherent functional difference between the genders that God created, that gave rise to His choice.

If you believe this, can you give scriptural support for this assertion.

Or did Jesus just follow what was culturally appropriate?

Subsequent Apostles in the early church were also men.

My aim is not to be a protagonist - I am hoping for constructive respectful dialogue.

May His Love cover this thread.

I am a Complementarian (believe that Men and Women have unique roles in the Church). I have argued against Egalitarians a few times on some previous web sites, I don't buy the time dispensation argument that is typically made by Egalitarians..... (That the apostles had to tow the line of what would be considered acceptable for their day and time).

This time also is not that different from our own, when it comes to Roman and major urban centers. Years ago, I made probably a dozen parallels or so between the ancient Roman, Pre Christian world and the postmodern, Post Christian one. There are tons and tons of parallels like multiculturalism, political factions, Christianity under skepticism and suspicion, a mass entertainment industry, organized crime, popular support of pagan/ nature worship, consumer culture etc. The Romans and other major centers actually had a life style that was more modern in its way of life compared to what was typical even for some Americans going back to the early 1900s. E.G. - running water, living in multilevel apartments, fast food and restaurants etc. Medical care, for Roman soldiers and other folks who could afford it was much better than what people got during much of the premodern Christian age even in the US going back to the Cowboy era.


(the link is probably the best advocate of Egalitarianism, if you read who they read and cite that is).
Submission in Context: Christ and the Greco-Roman Household Codes



Jesus and the apostles said and did things that sounded like sedition and sometimes even treason (e.g. - not burning incense to Cesar, being King of the Jews), , and broke taboos etc. Holy Communion was not understood by the ancient Romans, their was an actual rumor for 2 Centuries that the Christians were actually eating the flesh of their leader in the Catacombs! Anyway if Jesus wanted full Egalitarianism then he could have easily done it back then.... Their is a English saying "In for a penny.... In for a Pound....". The Romans already believed the Christians were degenerate seditionists who were bringing on them curses/disasters from their own gods, adding complete social equity would not have been a big deal seeing how they were already bent to destroy them and Christians were already acting like voluntary Socialists in the Early Book of Acts! Not to mention, the Romans already were use to the idea of female clergy since many of their cults had them....


Jesus however uses the same Typological pattern that was used in the Old Testament, when he preaches the New Covenant to Israel, with the 12 Apostles mirroring the 12 Patriarchs / Tribes. And he does that also when it comes to the Church Body of 70 disciples, which mirrors the Sanhedrin, going back to Moses, which itself is a reference to Genesis 10 the Exact number of "Nations" / people Groups that existed in the Aftermath of the tower of Babel where God entrusts most of the Nations to the Watcher (Angels), as Biblical Scholar, Michael Heiser describes in the following article.

Psalm 82: Part Two - The Allotment of the Nations to the Watchers - Godawa


And if you go back in Church history that typological pattern was considered a model for the Church, and for good reason if you read saint Paul's epistles which preached that the Gospel "was preached" and exemplified by Israel in the OT. (Romans 9, Hebrews 4).
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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I do not regard the gospels as literal histories but rather as interpretive narratives written one or two generations after the fact by people who were not eyewitnesses. They frequently employed Jewish/Hebrew symbolism and literary techniques to give meaning to the stories that were passed on to them.
Can I ask why you feel this way? Obviously if what your saying is true there has to be question marks on it all wouldn’t you say?
 
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LightLoveHope

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Is there an inherent functional difference between the genders that God created, that gave rise to His choice.

If you believe this, can you give scriptural support for this assertion.

Or did Jesus just follow what was culturally appropriate?

Subsequent Apostles in the early church were also men.

My aim is not to be a protagonist - I am hoping for constructive respectful dialogue.

May His Love cover this thread.

Culturally it was the men who were given education and vocational aspirations. Being a disciple and wandering around was one of them, while women were destined for marriage and home building. If you imagine on average you had 6 kids and only 2 made it to adulthood, life was tough and you started young. The role of the women was most likely that of a support to the disciples, in food and housing, which made it all possible. Nothing much has changed in the church now, a few like to grand stand while the disciples get on with making disciples.
 
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JackRT

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Can I ask why you feel this way? Obviously if what your saying is true there has to be question marks on it all wouldn’t you say?

The following answers these questions far better than I ever could:


Rabbi Brian Zachary Mayer wrote:
"I do not take the Bible literally. But I take it seriously. To take it literally would mean that I believe that every word, as it is written, was spoken by God. I cannot do that. But I can and do take it seriously. To take the Bible seriously means to examine it in its time and for the culture in which it was written. I want to offer up a very handy distinction that can help in our understanding of the Bible. That distinction I would like to make is revealed in the two words: true and truth. True is if it actually happened. It is a fact of history. Truth is the moral. It is the actual essence of things. I do not believe that most of the biblical stories are true stories. But I sure do believe that they are truth stories. It doesn’t matter to me if the Red Sea parted or if Noah had an ark. I don’t care if Jonah was swallowed by a whale or if that’s not necessarily factually so. To me, the great meaning of these stories has nothing to do with whether they’re historically accurate or not. Whether Jonah slept or didn’t sleep for three nights in the proverbial halibut hotel does not take away from the moral of the story – that it is human nature to run away from the things that we don’t want to do. I don’t believe this historically happened. I don’t believe Jonah was swallowed by a great fish and brought to the bottom of the sea-world after not doing what he knew he had to do. This is a truth story. Not a true story. This is a story about humanity, about me, about the troubles we get into when we don’t do what we should do and about how it will bring us down to the very bottom of our existence. It’s a truth story, not a true story. And if we look at the miracles in the Bible as truth stories, what we learn from these stories will be liberative for us. In this important way the Bible can be a very liberating force in our lives. If we read the Bible in this way we will probably fight less with what we read in the Bible. Moreover, seeking the "truth" of the stories can allow us to have meaningful conversations with people who might read the stories to be true stories rather than truth ones. The truth aspect of the story offers a place of connection between myself and those who read the words literally."
 
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chevyontheriver

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Who were subsequent apostles, you say in the "early church"? I admit to none but the 12, minus Judas plus Paul.
There is a difference between 'apostle' and the Twelve. Judas was replaced in the Twelve. Paul never was one of the Twelve.
 
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Gregorikos

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Firstly, God's design in creation has patriarch intentional built-in. "For Adam was formed first, then Eve." 1 Tim 2:13

Secondly, do you know of any childbirths that are pain-free?

Yes, Adam was formed first, then Eve. You are inferring authority from that, but it isn't so stated. Contradicting that conclusion is that animals were formed before Adam. So if being earlier in the order of creation implies authority, then Adam would be under the authority of the animals. But he was not, the man and the woman were the rulers of the animals. (Genesis 1:28) There is not one word spoken in Genesis 1 or 2 that says Adam was in authority over Eve. The first time anything like that is mentioned is during the fall and curses of Genesis 3:14-19.

According to the text of Gen 1-3, male rule came as a result of the fall in Genesis 3:16.

And secondly, do you know any women who willingly go through childbirth without pain medication? Why would they not? If it's God's will for them to suffer during childbirth, wouldn't anesthesia be sinful?

Are weed killers and fertilizers sinful? They counteract the curse of Genesis 3:17-18.

Do you eat of the ground by the sweat of your face from your painful toil? Or do you do all in your power to alleviate the conditions of the curse?

The curse is a bad thing. We don't live by the curse. Jesus redeemed us from that. Galatians 3:13
 
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JLB777

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Is there an inherent functional difference between the genders that God created, that gave rise to His choice.

If you believe this, can you give scriptural support for this assertion.

Or did Jesus just follow what was culturally appropriate?

Subsequent Apostles in the early church were also men.

My aim is not to be a protagonist - I am hoping for constructive respectful dialogue.

May His Love cover this thread.


12 is the number of divine government.





JLB
 
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timewerx

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Is there an inherent functional difference between the genders that God created, that gave rise to His choice.

If you believe this, can you give scriptural support for this assertion.

Or did Jesus just follow what was culturally appropriate?

Subsequent Apostles in the early church were also men.

My aim is not to be a protagonist - I am hoping for constructive respectful dialogue.

May His Love cover this thread.

Christ's favorite disciple is a woman though named Mary.

And yet, he appointed men. Simple. What do you think would happen if a woman preached the Gospel in a culture that is extremely patriarchal?

They won't even get that far, the movement would be squished too soon and that's not good.
 
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hedrick

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Jesus chose 12 men, but it appears that the core of people who were always with him included those 12 men and 3 women. The Gospels don't emphasize the women as much as the men. E.g. in Mark it's only at the end, in Mark 15:41, that we learn that there were three women who were with him the whole time. Luke 8:1-3 makes it a bit clearer that the 3 women were around along with the 12 men.

I think it's far from clear that the 12 men were any more significant than the 3 women. Yes, Jesus chose the 12, but he chose them out of a larger number of people who were following him to be in his central group. It's unlikely in that culture that there were a large number of women following him on a continuing basis, so he didn't need to choose the women.
 
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Gregorikos

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Jesus chose 12 men, but it appears that the core of people who were always with him included those 12 men and 3 women. The Gospels don't emphasize the women as much as the men. E.g. in Mark it's only at the end, in Mark 15:41, that we learn that there were three women who were with him the whole time. Luke 8:1-3 makes it a bit clearer that the 3 women were around along with the 12 men.

I think it's far from clear that the 12 men were any more significant than the 3 women. Yes, Jesus chose the 12, but he chose them out of a larger number of people who were following him to be in his central group. It's unlikely in that culture that there were a large number of women following him on a continuing basis, so he didn't need to choose the women.

There were more women that followed Jesus than the 3. Luke 8:3 says, "and many others." The phrase many others and the relative pronoun "who" are both feminine in Greek, referring to women who supported Jesus and his disciples. I take "many" to be at a minimum 3, so that would be at least 6-8 women in Jesus' entourage.

And comparing Luke 8:2-3 with Matthew 27:55-56, Luke 23:49,55 and Mark 15:40-41 it appears these same women followed him from town to town through most of his ministry.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Christ's favorite disciple is a woman though named Mary.

And yet, he appointed men. Simple. What do you think would happen if a woman preached the Gospel in a culture that is extremely patriarchal?

They won't even get that far, the movement would be squished too soon and that's not good.
I don't think it (rather KNOW Spiritually? that it doesn't) matters what the culture is. What the Father says, DO. Simpler, and correct.
 
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Gregorikos

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I don't think it (rather KNOW Spiritually? that it doesn't) matters what the culture is. What the Father says, DO. Simpler, and correct.

Nobody disputes that. We already know what the Father said- appoint these 12 men. Which Jesus did.

The question is, how is it that of all the Lord's disciples, both male and female, the 12 that were chosen to be the first group of apostles were all males? Odds are very high (as demonstrated above) that wasn't a random aspect of the decision. They had to be males for this job.

There have been various suggestions as to the reason why this is so, and all of it is more or less reasoned speculation, as none of us really know because the Bible simply doesn't say.

Some have opined essentially that it's because women aren't supposed to be leading, but the Bible has several examples that contradict that- Miriam, Deborah, Huldah. God clearly didn't have a problem with putting a woman in charge. And why would he have a problem with that? Women by and large are endowed equally as men with the same intelligence and spiritual gifts.

IMO it had to be a matter either of symbolism (i.e. relating to the 12 patriarchs) or practicality (God knew that men would be more effective in that role in that culture.)
 
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