True saving faith is proven by your repentance

CharismaticLady said:

Who was willfully sinning, besides Ananias and Sapphira? Do not include anyone before the Day of Pentecost, the start of the New Covenant.

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Peter. Simon the Sorceror, Ananias and Sapphira and the man at Corinth who was sleeping with his father's wife. Then you also had the people at Corinth who were preaching falsehoods and sending the church into disunity, the members of the Church at Galatia who were trying to get people to return to the law.... I mean, there are a good enough number written about in the time we all agree that the spiritual gifts were active, that it's really hard to come up with a more vanquished doctrine than the one that says Christians can't sin because the Holy Spirit prevents them from doing so.

Why would Paul ask saints if they would take the Holy Spirit into a harlot if it weren't possible? They might get naked and accidentally fall between the legs of a prostitute? "Oops, sorry God, probably should have kept my pants on..."

ChetSinger said:

I've been following this thread off and on and have developed a question, in part prompted by your link: do you believe it's easy for a Christian to go back and forth between being saved and damned multiple times in a single day?

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By my own experience, I cannot recall this happening for me personally. In those times I have stumbled on rare occasion, I am usually really broken to my core about what I have done. So I do not seek to ever do it again; Especially when I know that God can condemn me for even one serious sin. As for another and how God handles such situations: I cannot speak for them and what God does in that situation. All I know is that 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, and Proverbs 28:13 is true (Which is denied by the "Secure in their Sin Salvationists"). In Luke 15:11-32: I know that when the prodigal son came back home to the father and sought forgiveness with him, his father said he was “dead” and now he is “alive again.” The parable is speaking in spiritual terms. When the son was spending his money on prostitutes, he was spiritually dead, but when he came back and sought forgiveness with his father, he became alive again spiritually. James 5:19-20 expresses the same truth. Jesus said that to look upon a woman in lust means that the person is in danger of being cast bodily into hellfire (Matthew 5:28-30). John (after the cross) says that whoever hates his brother is like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15).

God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live godly and righteously in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). God's grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). A person who believes that they can commit grievous serious sins that God condemns in His Word with their thinking that they are saved means that they are turning God's grace into a license for immorality. It's breaking God's commandment and thinking we are not going to die spiritually. This is the same ole lie pushed by the devil towards Eve in the garden. Do you really want to take a chance on thinking so otherwise? If there was even the slimmest chance I could be punished by God and or separated from Him, why would I play games with sin that He condemns in His Word and seek to justify it under His grace? It makes no sense. But people want to serve two masters. They want one foot in the Kingdom and one foot in their own. At least that is how I see it when I read the Scriptures. Most want a more comforting message that is simply not taught in God's Word.

Guojing said:

so in your view, wilful sins are not what Jesus covered for at the cross?

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At the cross, of course. But then He gave us His own sinless Spirit to empower us, and a new nature that is dead to sin. This is being born again.

But He only gives His Spirit to those who repent of their sin nature; their weakness to sin, who want to serve Jesus. There are those who want their cake and eat it too. That is what false doctrines give them. They don't have to give up sin, just believe in Jesus and you are saved. To them Jesus will say, I never knew you, you workers of wickedness.

renniks said:

That's right kind of you.
Let's see, last I checked there were over 100 end times doctrines, all in contradiction with each other. But I'm sure you alone have it all figured it out.

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I care more about you starting at the beginning, not the end.

renniks said:

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

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You think He just "covers" our sin, like bulls and goats. If that was the case why did he die? Just to save bulls and goats?

Al Touthentop said:

Peter. Simon the Sorceror, Ananias and Sapphira and the man at Corinth who was sleeping with his father's wife. Then you also had the people at Corinth who were preaching falsehoods and sending the church into disunity, the members of the Church at Galatia who were trying to get people to return to the law.... I mean, there are a good enough number written about in the time we all agree that the spiritual gifts were active, that it's really hard to come up with a more vanquished doctrine than the one that says Christians can't sin because the Holy Spirit prevents them from doing so.

Why would Paul ask saints if they would take the Holy Spirit into a harlot if it weren't possible? They might get naked and accidentally fall between the legs of a prostitute? "Oops, sorry God, probably should have kept my pants on..."

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You really want to willfully sin that badly and still be saved? Is that it?

CharismaticLady said:

You think He just "covers" our sin, like bulls and goats. If that was the case why did he die? Just to save bulls and goats?

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According to you, he only died for our sins before salvation. And you believe we still sin, you just redefine sin. I am well verse in similar doctrine. I grew up in holiness churches. But, there were no sinless people in them.

CharismaticLady said:

I care more about you starting at the beginning, not the end.

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I've been studying the Bible for 40 plus years.

CharismaticLady said:

Jesus taught us basically two commandments. OSAS only believes in one.

23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

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Off the top of my head, I can recall several commands of Jesus. Of course, there are the two commands that Jesus repeated from the Old Law that He clarified as being the two greatest commandments.


Jesus gave us a new commandment; It is:


Imagine trying to love the brethren in the same way Jesus did. That is a whole study in itself and it takes God’s help to make it a reality in our lives.

Believing in Jesus is a commandment.


Jesus said to the rich young ruler:

The rich young ruler asked:

Jesus said:

I hope this helps;
And may God bless you this fine evening.

renniks said:

According to you, he only died for our sins before salvation. And you believe we still sin, you just redefine sin. I am well verse in similar doctrine. I grew up in holiness churches. But, there were no sinless people in them.

I've been studying the Bible for 40 plus years.

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I study the Word, and get my doctrines from there. No where does it say we are forgiven of our past, present and future sins as your false doctrine declares! Only our old sins. 2 Peter 1:9

Bible Highlighter said:

Off the top of my head, I can recall several commands of Jesus. Of course, there are the two commands that Jesus repeated from the Old Law that He clarified as being the two greatest commandments.

#1. Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength: this is the first commandment (Mark 12:29-30).

#2. You shall love your neighbour as yourself (Matthew 19:19).​

Jesus gave us a new commandment; It is:

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.”
(‭‭John‬ ‭13:34‬).​

Imagine trying to love the brethren in the same way Jesus did. That is a whole study in itself and it takes God’s help to make it a reality in our lives.

Believing in Jesus is a commandment.

This is His commandment: We should believe on the name of the Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment. (1 John 3:23).​

Jesus said to the rich young ruler:

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19:17).​

The rich young ruler asked:

“Which ones?”​

Jesus said:

“Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:18-19).​

I hope this helps;
And may God bless you this fine evening.

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The rich young ruler was under the Law.

The Sermon on the Mount is what loving your neighbor as yourself would look like. His time on earth was like the writing of His will, but it would not come into effect until His death. The reading of the will was on the Day of Pentecost.

1 John 3:23 two commandments are broken down like this:

Commandments 1-4: believe in the name of Jesus
Commandments 5-10: love your neighbor as yourself

The two make up God's eternal law of loving God with all your heart, mind and strength, and loving your neighbor as yourself.

CharismaticLady said:

The rich young ruler was under the Law.

The Sermon on the Mount is what loving your neighbor as yourself would look like. His time on earth was like the writing of His will, but it would not come into effect until His death. The reading of the will was on the Day of Pentecost.

1 John 3:23 two commandments are broken down like this:

Commandments 1-4: believe in the name of Jesus
Commandments 5-10: love your neighbor as yourself

The two make up God's eternal law of loving God with all your heart, mind and strength, and loving your neighbor as yourself.

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Please provide citations in Scripture to back up your reasoning here.

CharismaticLady said:

You really want to willfully sin that badly and still be saved? Is that it?

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Nonresponsive.

CharismaticLady said:

The rich young ruler was under the Law.

The Sermon on the Mount is what loving your neighbor as yourself would look like. His time on earth was like the writing of His will, but it would not come into effect until His death. The reading of the will was on the Day of Pentecost.

1 John 3:23 two commandments are broken down like this:

Commandments 1-4: believe in the name of Jesus
Commandments 5-10: love your neighbor as yourself

The two make up God's eternal law of loving God with all your heart, mind and strength, and loving your neighbor as yourself.

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Don't forget Mark 16:16

Bible Highlighter said:

Please provide citations in Scripture to back up your reasoning here.

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Hebrews 6:
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.” 21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

Greatness of Christ’s Sacrifice
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Al Touthentop said:

Nonresponsive.

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I don't blame you.

CharismaticLady said:

The rich young ruler was under the Law.

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While the Old Covenant was in effect before Christ's death, I believe Jesus was making changes to the Law during His earthly ministry (like: Turn the other cheek instead of an eye for an eye, etc.). The laws that Jesus mentioned in Matthew 19:17-19 are still in effect under the New Covenant. While they can be found in the Law of Moses, they have been repeated in the New Testament or as a part of Jesus's teachings for us today.

You said:

The Sermon on the Mount is what loving your neighbor as yourself would look like.

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The sermon on the Mount is actually more than just loving your neighbor.
Praying and fasting should not be done so as to be seen by others (Which is a thing so as to impress God and not men).
We are not to pray in vain repetitions.
We are told to seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness.
We are told that we cannot serve God and riches, etc.

You said:

His time on earth was like the writing of His will,

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The Lord's commandments continued with Paul.

"If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual,
let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you
are the commandments of the Lord."
(1 Corinthians 14:37).

You said:

but it would not come into effect until His death.

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I believe the New Covenant went into effect officially with His death.

You said:

The reading of the will was on the Day of Pentecost.

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In what way? Please provide Scripture.

You said:

1 John 3:23 two commandments are broken down like this:

Commandments 1-4: believe in the name of Jesus

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Do a study on believing on the name of Jesus in the New Testament. Believing on the name of Jesus is unique. It does not appear to describe the first 4 of the ten commandments.

You said:

Commandments 5-10: love your neighbor as yourself

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I would agree with this according to Romans 13:8-10.

You said:

The two make up God's eternal law of loving God with all your heart, mind and strength, and loving your neighbor as yourself.

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I don't remember catching that in the Bible. Scripture verse please.

Al Touthentop said:

Don't forget Mark 16:16

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The question is, what does "believe" mean to you? Is He you Savior only, or also Master.

James 2:
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Bible Highlighter said:

While the Old Covenant was in effect before Christ's death, I believe Jesus was making changes to the Law during His earthly ministry (like: Turn the other cheek instead of an eye for an eye, etc.). The laws that Jesus mentioned in Matthew 19:17-19 are still in effect under the New Covenant. While they can be found in the Law of Moses, they have been repeated in the New Testament or as a part of Jesus's teachings for us today.



The sermon on the Mount is actually more than just loving your neighbor.
Praying and fasting should not be done so as to be seen by others (Which is a thing so as to impress God and not men).
We are not to pray in vain repetitions.
We are told to seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness.
We are told that we cannot serve God and riches, etc.



The Lord's commandments continued with Paul.

"If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual,
let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you
are the commandments of the Lord."
(1 Corinthians 14:37).



I believe the New Covenant went into effect officially with His death.



In what way? Please provide Scripture.



Do a study on believing on the name of Jesus in the New Testament. It does not describe the first 4 of the ten commandments.



I would agree with this according to Romans 13:8-10.



I don't remember catching that in the Bible. Scripture verse please.

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We don't break, thou shalt not murder. We don't even come close, because the commandment of Jesus is thou shalt not hate. Paul says in Romans 1 that we "establish" the law, but the deeper law, not the surface commandments of the Ten Commandments, but the eternal law of God, that the Ten Commandments only brushed the surface.

As for Jesus and the first four commandments. Jesus is God. What in particular don't you agree with that Jesus didn't fulfill?

(Going back to bed)

CharismaticLady said:

We don't break, thou shalt not murder. We don't even come close, because the commandment of Jesus is thou shalt not hate.

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Jesus did not say, "thou shalt not hate," but he did say to love our enemies.
The apostle John says whoever hates his brother is like a murderer.

You said:

Paul says in Romans 1 that we "establish" the law, but the deeper law, not the surface commandments of the Ten Commandments, but the eternal law of God, that the Ten Commandments only brushed the surface.

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I believe that there is an Eternal Moral Law that came into existence when Adam and Eve received the Knowledge of good and evil. This Moral Law was expanded and enhanced by Jesus Christ.

You said:

As for Jesus and the first four commandments. Jesus is God. What in particular don't you agree with that Jesus didn't fulfill?

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Believing in the name of Jesus is specific to trusting in the Messiah who is a real person who is God incarnate. Trusting in Jesus's name can involve praying in His name, or calling upon the name of the Lord for salvation, giving thanks in His name, etc. Worshiping God alone is more general (i.e. the 1st command). It is not exactly related to trusting in the name of Jesus. Worship of God is adoring Him and praising Him, and devoting our life to Him with our entire being. It is recognizing Him as the One and only true God who deserves all praise, glory, honor, and power.
Do not make graven images and bow down to them (the 2nd commandment) is not related to trusting in the name of Jesus. They are two different things. The same is true for the 3rd command, which is to not take the Lord's name in vain. The 4th command is taking a physical day of rest from one's labour work between Friday at sundown to Saturday at sundown. Yes, this is symbolic of the rest that we have in Jesus, but keeping the Jewish Sabbath literally is not exactly believing in the name of Jesus in a literal way. They are still two different things.

Bible Highlighter said:

Jesus did not say, "thou shalt not hate," but he did say to love our enemies.
The apostle John says whoever hates his brother is like a murderer.

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21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

Bible Highlighter said:

Believing in the name of Jesus is specific to trusting in the Messiah who is a real person who is God incarnate. Trusting in Jesus's name can involve praying in His name, or calling upon the name of the Lord for salvation, giving thanks in His name, etc. Worshiping God alone is more general (i.e. the 1st command). It is not exactly related to trusting in the name of Jesus. Worship of God is adoring Him and praising Him, and devoting our life to Him with our entire being. It is recognizing Him as the One and only true God who deserves all praise, glory, honor, and power.
Do not make graven images and bow down to them (the 2nd commandment) is not related to trusting in the name of Jesus. They are two different things. The same is true for the 3rd command, which is to not take the Lord's name in vain.

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I agree. I was quoting 1 John 3:23, but that should be in context with verse 24