True saving faith is proven by your repentance

[renniks]

I study the Word, and get my doctrines from there. No where does it say we are forgiven of our past, present and future sins as your false doctrine declares! Only our old sins. 2 Peter 1:9

From your tone, I get the impression that you think I'm encouraging people to sin. That's not the case. I already said I believe sin can lead people into disbelief, plus habitual sin limits our relationship with Christ.
We should live as close to Jesus as possible. Part of that is being humble enough to recognize that we still mess up and need forgiven daily.

" But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all."

Thank God for his Mercy, which is new every day!
" If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O
Lord, who could stand? But with you there is forgiveness; therefore you are feared. I wait for the LORD, my soul waits, and in his word I put my hope."

Amen.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

Matthew 5:21-22 is in reference to not being mindlessly angry with one's brother. It is not a general command for all people that says, "thou shalt not hate." Jesus never said that. Jesus also said, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26). Granted, Jesus means to "love less" when he refers to the kind of form of "hate" here. But the point is that Jesus did not say, "thou shalt not hate." Yes, we are to love even our enemies, too. But again, Jesus did not specifically use the words "thou shalt not hate." That is something you are adding to Scripture.

I agree. I was quoting 1 John 3:23, but that should be in context with verse 24

I don't see how that changed what you said. You said believing in the name of Jesus as mentioned in 1 John 3:23 is referring to the first 4 commands within the ten commandments. I don't see this is possible let alone how verse 24 supports you in this, either. It simply says, "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us." (1 John 3:24).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

From your tone, I get the impression that you think I'm encouraging people to sin. That's not the case.

But you don't believe a Christian loses salvation (or abides in spiritual death) via by their abiding in grievous sin like hate, lust, lying, etc; If this is still so, this is a doctrine or belief that does encourage a person to sin all on it's own because it can lead a person to treat God's grace as a license for immorality or to sin with impunity. For if a person thinks they do not lose salvation via by committing certain grievous sins, they will then feel free to do them while thinking they are saved. For if people knew that there was no more punishment for speeding on the highway, more people would speed. For a person who thinks they can sin and still be saved may think they will never all into unbelief. So they will just continue in their sin and think they are still saved.

...plus habitual sin limits our relationship with Christ.

Believers cannot be out of fellowship with the Lord and be saved.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalms 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Being cleansed of sin is salvation; If you were to contrast this with 1 John 2:4, it says that person who says they know the Lord and does keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them. Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

#8. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5).

We should live as close to Jesus as possible. Part of that is being humble enough to recognize that we still mess up and need forgiven daily.

While God's grace and mercy is important, we are not supposed to be a defeated people to our sin or a slave to sin. Jesus says he that sins is a slave to sin (or a servant to sin), and the servant (slave) will not abide in the house forever (John 8:34-35). We see an example of the sinning servant (believer who sins) not abiding in the house forever (according to John 8:34-35) mentioned in Matthew 13:41-42. We see those who offend and those who work iniquity in Christ's kingdom being cast out of His kingdom by Christ's angels at the judgment in Matthew 13:41-42.

" But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all."

This is in reference to the "Provisional Atonement."

Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

Thank God for his Mercy, which is new every day!
" If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O
Lord, who could stand? But with you there is forgiveness; therefore you are feared. I wait for the LORD, my soul waits, and in his word I put my hope."

Amen.

This is in reference to past sins, and this forgiveness is not applied if we don't do anything. Psalms 130:3-5 is in context to verse 2 that says, "Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O LORD.
Lord, hear my voice: let thine ears be attentive to the voice of my supplications." (Psalms 130:3-5).

David was seeking forgiveness with the Lord over his sins of adultery and murder in Psalms 51. There is no point to seek forgiveness like in 1 John 1:9, if one is already forgiven. That is the illogical conclusion in a "Secure in One's Sin View of Salvation." Proverbs 28:13 says, "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy."

 

[renniks]

But you don't believe a Christian loses salvation (or abides in spiritual death) via by their abiding in grievous sin like hate, lust, lying, etc; If this is still so, this is a doctrine or belief that does encourage a person to sin all on it's own because it can lead a person to treat God's grace as a license for immorality or to sin with impunity. For if a person thinks they do not lose salvation via by committing certain grievous sins, they will then feel free to do them while thinking they are saved. For if people knew that there was no more punishment for speeding on the highway, more people would speed.

If the only thing that is keeping one in Christ is the fear of punishment, I would doubt that they were in him to begin with. Perfect love drives out fear... Who would want to live with someone but they were deathly afraid of? Do you want to be in the same house with someone that might kill you just because you said the wrong word?
We shun sin out of love for God. If it's only out of fear, it's done for the wrong reason. And what is not done from faith is sin.
Faith involves unfailing trust that Christ is enough. Not that I am perfect, that is arrogance.

 

[renniks]

This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it);

Yes, every sin. Ever. Including the ones not yet committed.

 

[renniks]

David was seeking forgiveness with the Lord over his sins of adultery and murder in Psalms 51. There is no point to seek forgiveness like in 1 John 1:9, if one is already forgiven. That is the illogical conclusion in a "Secure in One's Sin View of Salvation." Proverbs 28:13 says, "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy."

Um, no. Blessed assurance that Jesus is mine, causes one to want to repent and do what he would want. To say there is no point because God won't immediately cast you into hell if you don't? That's just selfish ambition... Not love. David had the right attitude once aware of his sins. That's part of what made him a man after God's own heart.
Saul, on the other hand made excuses for his sin. I'm talking about having humility as David did, to realize our need of forgiveness. To see ourselves as broken human beings, not as arrogant saints who think they are better than everyone else.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If the only thing that is keeping one in Christ is the fear of punishment, I would doubt that they were in him to begin with. Perfect love drives out fear... Who would want to live with someone but they were deathly afraid of? Do you want to be in the same house with someone that might kill you just because you said the wrong word?
We shun sin out of love for God. If it's only out of fear, it's done for the wrong reason. And what is not done from faith is sin.
Faith involves unfailing trust that Christ is enough. Not that I am perfect, that is arrogance.

Things are not as we prefer them to be.
How does one have perfect love so that they can cast out fear?

By keeping His Word.
For it is written:

"But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." (1 John 2:5).

Men depart from evil because of the fear of the Lord.

"...by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil." (Proverbs 16:6).

Jesus says:
"And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." (Matthew 10:28) (BLB) (Note: Gehenna is the Lake of Fire).

It is why we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
It is why a great fear fell upon the church when Ananias and Sapphira died for lying to the Spirit (See: Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11, and pay special close attention to verse 11).

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge (Proverbs 1:7).
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (Proverbs 9:10).

In other words, you are not looking at the whole counsel of God's Word, and you are simply seeking a more comforting message that does not exist.

 

[Al Touthentop]

I don't blame you.

You were nonresponsive, not me. You can't defend your position. I don't want to sin. That was just an accusation you threw out there because you'd rather apparently impune my motives than show in scripture where it says we're prevented from doing so by a supernatural power.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Um, no. Blessed assurance that Jesus is mine, causes one to want to repent and do what he would want. To say there is no point because God won't immediately cast you into hell if you don't? That's just selfish ambition... Not love. David had the right attitude once aware of his sins. That's part of what made him a man after God's own heart.
Saul, on the other hand made excuses for his sin. I'm talking about having humility as David did, to realize our need of forgiveness. To see ourselves as broken human beings, not as arrogant saints who think they are better than everyone else.

The problem is that this kind of belief is not taught in the Scriptures. Jesus never said, "if you love me, do not worry about the commandments so much. I have paid for your present and future sin, and you will automatically strive at trying to keep them (even though you will not really keep them perfectly) because I paid for your all sins in the present, and future." Jesus said, if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Jesus said, "if you keep the commandments, you shall abide in my love." (John 15:10).

As for your insinuation that Conditional Salvationists like myself think we are better than everyone else:

This is simply an ad hominem that is simply not true. In Luke 18:9-14: The problem with the Pharisee in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee was that he did not humble himself before God and cry out over his sins like the Tax Collector did, and thus as a result, he thought he was better than others by trying to be saved by Law Alone Salvationism in the Pharisee false religion (that de-emphasized grace, and mercy).

Again, the problem with your belief is that it does turn God's grace into a license for immorality on some small level. You don't believe you have to keep God's laws perfectly in regards to those laws that refer to condemnation or hellfire. (Matthew 5:29-30) (Matthew 15:10-11), and yet you are still saved. For you do not believe a Christian loses salvation via by sin. Thus, there is no motivation to treat sin properly in the way that it needs to be dealt with. For if you told a child that their future sin is forgiven them, and you never see them again, they could turn out to be the next George Sodini, or they could commit suicide thinking they were saved while doing so.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Um, no. Blessed assurance that Jesus is mine, causes one to want to repent and do what he would want.

Of course. It was taught that this should be a Christian's attitude. What wasn't taught was that a Christian is supernaturally caused not to sin. There are plenty of examples of Christians in the bible who sinned after becoming disciples or even apostles.

To say there is no point because God won't immediately cast you into hell if you don't? That's just selfish ambition... Not love. David had the right attitude once aware of his sins. That's part of what made him a man after God's own heart.

I don't think John was being selfish and he didn't make threats. He showed that God has mercy on those who sin even after becoming disciples. That should be a cause for rejoicing. But as Paul said, some people need to have some fear and trembling if that's what motivates them.

Saul, on the other hand made excuses for his sin. I'm talking about having humility as David did, to realize our need of forgiveness. To see ourselves as broken human beings, not as arrogant saints who think they are better than everyone else.

I don't think this view is that constructive. Becoming a disciple of Christ heals you. Why continue to feel broken? God made us fully capable of following his commands and gave us a way to sanctify and consecrate ourselves as his vessels. Continuing to consider ourselves broken is not what I believe he wanted us to do. One can be humble without thinking they are a piece of dirt. Not a good way to think of one's self. Pride goeth before the fall. Obviously arrogance is not something God approves of either.

 

[Al Touthentop]

The question is, what does "believe" mean to you? Is He you Savior only, or also Master.

It means to trust and do all that he commanded. It doesn't just mean to think things in your head.

James 2:
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

And it would appear as if we agree on something. James asks if a faith without works can save a man. It obviously can't.

 

[CharismaticLady]

From your tone, I get the impression that you think I'm encouraging people to sin. That's not the case. I already said I believe sin can lead people into disbelief, plus habitual sin limits our relationship with Christ.
We should live as close to Jesus as possible. Part of that is being humble enough to recognize that we still mess up and need forgiven daily.

" But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all."

Thank God for his Mercy, which is new every day!
" If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O
Lord, who could stand? But with you there is forgiveness; therefore you are feared. I wait for the LORD, my soul waits, and in his word I put my hope."

Amen.

Good. Then you don't teach that our past, present, and future sins are forgiven like some Protestants teach?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Matthew 5:21-22 is in reference to not being mindlessly angry with one's brother. It is not a general command for all people that says, "thou shalt not hate." Jesus never said that. Jesus also said, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26). Granted, Jesus means to "love less" when he refers to the kind of form of "hate" here. But the point is that Jesus did not say, "thou shalt not hate." Yes, we are to love even our enemies, too. But again, Jesus did not specifically use the words "thou shalt not hate." That is something you are adding to Scripture.



I don't see how that changed what you said. You said believing in the name of Jesus as mentioned in 1 John 3:23 is referring to the first 4 commands within the ten commandments. I don't see this is possible let alone how verse 24 supports you in this, either. It simply says, "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us." (1 John 3:24).

1 John 3:14
15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You were nonresponsive, not me. You can't defend your position. I don't want to sin. That was just an accusation you threw out there because you'd rather apparently impune my motives than show in scripture where it says we're prevented from doing so by a supernatural power.

I find it odd that those who are supposedly teaching Jesus, focus on justifying their weakness, and not on His power to empower.

That is what I meant.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1 John 3:14
15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Yes, I already mentioned this verse before to you. But this is in reference to hating one's brother. Jesus surely does not want us to hate anyone in the sense that we may think of the word hate, but Jesus also said that if we do not hate mother, brother, etc. we cannot be his disciple. The word "hate" in this sense means to "love them less" than the Lord. But the point I am trying to make here is that you stated that Jesus said, "thou shalt not hate" when He made no specific statement like that. You could have said that Jesus was essentially teaching us to: "Not hate others." This would be true (For the most part). But to say that Jesus actually stated the words "thou shall not hate" is not true. You are claiming that Jesus said something that He never really stated specifically in God's Word. This is dangerous to make such a claim.

 

[CharismaticLady]

It means to trust and do all that he commanded.

I agree.

It doesn't just mean to think things in your head.

Not sure where you are going with this.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yes, I already mentioned this verse before to you. But this is in reference to hating one's brother. Jesus surely does not want us to hate anyone in the sense that we may think of the word hate, but Jesus also said that if we do not hate mother, brother, etc. we cannot be his disciple. The word "hate" in this sense means to "love them less" than the Lord. But the point I am trying to make here is that you stated that Jesus said, "thou shalt not hate" when He made no specific statement like that. You could have said that Jesus was essentially teaching us to: "Not hate others." This would be true (For the most part). But to say that Jesus actually stated the words "thou shall not hate" is not true. You are claiming that Jesus said something that He never really stated specifically in God's Word. This is dangerous to do such a thing.

Jesus also said to love our enemies. Is He only referring to those enemies in the Church?

 

[Al Touthentop]

I find it odd that those who are supposedly teaching Jesus, focus on justifying their weakness, and not on His power to empower.

That is what I meant.

What you meant was to make a baseless accusation instead of acknowledging that we as Christians are called to control ourselves?

 

[CharismaticLady]

What you meant was to make a baseless accusation instead of acknowledging that we as Christians are called to control ourselves?

I stated what I meant. I should know. You telling me what I meant is a baseless accusation.

 

[Al Touthentop]

I agree.



Not sure where you are going with this.

I'm not "going" anywhere. All the commands are required and we were created with the free will to believe and obey.