Why the silence of the Holy Spirit on Sunday against Saturday?

Dkh587 · Oct 12, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Why do you think that the Sabbath was not a requirement mentioned by the Jerusalem Council - Acts 15 ??

The 4 commandments given are not the only commandments to be obeyed... it wasn’t an exhaustive list.

Carl Emerson · Oct 12, 2019

So as you understand it, we are still under the Law in the New Covenant?

guevaraj · Oct 12, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
So as you understand it, we are still under the Law in the New Covenant?

Brother, we are no longer under the law's condemnation, since Jesus works in us through the Holy Spirit to obey the law in a cycle of forgiveness that our High Priest lives forever to fully fulfill. For example: as those who prepare for the Olympic Games recover when they fail and grow to reach the goal through constant practice. Then the day comes, amazed at what they have accomplished, the world sees that they can surpass the least demands of God.

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure. Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. (1 John 3:2-10 NIV)

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

S.O.J.I.A. · Oct 12, 2019

…...wut?

Carl Emerson · Oct 12, 2019

So what do you understand the 'Law of the Spirit' to be?
He has written His living law in our hearts replacing the imperfect Law. To suggest this is 'Lawless' runs the risk of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Yes?

guevaraj · Oct 13, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
So what do you understand the 'Law of the Spirit' to be?

Brother, the difference is that the law of the Spirit allows you to grow, while the previous law sees no middle ground, demanding immediate full compliance without the opportunity to grow towards full compliance. For example: the difference between a coach who believes in you willing to train you for as long as it takes and a policeman obligated to treat you immediately according to your behavior.

We love because he first loved us. Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister. (1 John 4:19-21 NIV)

Here is the order of your training by the Holy Spirit, when you have learned to love your neighbor whom you see then you can learn to love God whom you do not see. First, He teaches you to love your neighbor by putting His laws in your heart to appreciate the 6 last commandments and then you are ready to appreciate the first four commandments in the study of His word to complete your love for God and neighbor in the ten commandments as the least love God requires written by His own finger.

Carl Emerson said:
He has written His living law in our hearts replacing the imperfect Law. To suggest this is 'Lawless' runs the risk of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Yes?

You may be carried away by “the error of the lawless” when the scriptures are distorted to remove the minimum requirement of the ten commandments. Complete your training by the Holy Spirit through the study of His word for yourself. “Those who are trying to lead you astray” tell you that the new replaces the old, when the Holy Spirit in your heart exposes more clearly the light of God’s love that shines from the beginning. It seems new because it was not obeyed. What the Holy Spirit is teaching you is not new; it is the same old message of love from the beginning. The Holy Spirit has placed in your heart what others want you to think is new so that you abandon the old, but His teaching is consistent with the old message He has already taught us from the beginning. From His training within you, you will recognize the love in His word without anyone else needing to teach you because you already know Him by the light that He has given you to recognize the light of love from the beginning that completes your training. Jesus obeyed the ten commandments; you must live as Jesus did, obeying the ten commandments as the least display of love for God and neighbor that shines from the beginning written by God’s own finger.

But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining… As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—eternal life. I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him. And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming. If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him. (1 John 2:5-8, 24-29 NIV)

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Carl Emerson · Oct 13, 2019

Some of what you write is close to my conclusions, but I do believe that we enter the Sabbath Rest and share in His seventh day rest permanently. You can keep what ever 'holy' days you like but clearly He is far more interested in surrendered hearts that beat with His.

guevaraj · Oct 13, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
You can keep what ever 'holy' days you like but clearly He is far more interested in surrendered hearts that beat with His.

Brother, those surrendered hearts that beat with His would keep the true sign of salvation by faith found in the Sabbath. The sign of salvation by works is found on a substitute Sabbath placed in opposition to the word of God. When people choose to set aside God’s law and keep a day of their own choice, they do not truly rest in grace, but try to save themselves by their own works. There is no better way to detect deception than with a false Sabbath. It all comes down to choosing my way or God’s way.

“If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable, and shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor speaking your own words, then you shall delight yourself in the Lord; and I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth, and feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father. The mouth of the Lord has spoken.” (Isaiah 58:13-14 NKJV)

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Carl Emerson · Oct 13, 2019

Exactly - the sentiments expressed in Is 58 I agree with fully and apply them to every day rather than one particular day. I join Him in resting on the seventh day of creation that continues on to eternity.

guevaraj · Oct 14, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Exactly - the sentiments expressed in Is 58 I agree with fully and apply them to every day rather than one particular day. I join Him in resting on the seventh day of creation that continues on to eternity.

Brother, you are disobeying part of the fourth commandment. If you treat every day as a Sabbath, then you have abandoned your stewardship responsibilities during the work days. God has given us work to do during the work days we don't do during the Sabbath. Having food to eat is one of those needs that we handle during the work days. The Sabbath unites us all over the world at the same time and it is not Sabbath for some and not for others as we have it now with our traditions. Our traditions have not exposed the deep meaning of the Sabbath that has a lot to tell us, exposing Sunday as a deception that protestants have not been able to shake off till now.

“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. (Exodus 20:8-11 ESV)

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Carl Emerson · Oct 14, 2019

I find this quite a shallow answer my friend...

What do you know about my work life?

You are making judgements without concrete evidence.

In God's Sabbath peace you are at rest whether you are working or not.

I guess your next move will be to warn of Hell fire if I don't worship on Saturday.

As I spontaneously worship almost every day I have that base covered as well.

Our walk is all about relationship not Law.

guevaraj · Oct 14, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Our walk is all about relationship not Law.

Brother, who told you that it's not about "the law"?

Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world. (1 John 4:1 NLT)

Paul is talking about obeying "the law" even more than was possible before Jesus, because the Holy Spirit puts "the law" in our hearts. That makes "the law" the measure of your faith. Greater than that of those who preceded us must our obedience be to "the law". Listen to Paul's words that you "distort" with your interpretation of the Sabbath:

Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law. (Romans 3:31 NLT)

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Phil W · Oct 14, 2019

guevaraj said:
Brother, who told you that it's not about "the law"?

Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world. (1 John 4:1 NLT)

Paul is talking about obeying "the law" even more than was possible before Jesus, because the Holy Spirit puts "the law" in our hearts. That makes "the law" the measure of your faith. Greater than that of those who preceded us must our obedience be to "the law". Listen to Paul's words that you "distort" with your interpretation of the Sabbath:

Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law. (Romans 3:31 NLT)

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Here is a 'curve ball' for you...
If every day is not the Lord's day to you, you are an idolater.
You hold certain days above our Lord's day, not honoring God six days a week.

guevaraj · Oct 14, 2019

Phil W said:
Here is a 'curve ball' for you...
If every day is not the Lord's day to you, you are an idolater.
You hold certain days above our Lord's day, not honoring God six days a week.

Brother, God defines an idolater in the second commandment. The apostate Roman church put its idolatrous tradition above the word of God, eliminating the second commandment and dividing the last in two so that they can lie to keep their idols against God's word with their modified ten commandments. They deceive the world by saying that they keep the commandments when they have removed the second commandment below:

You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. (Exodus 20:4-6 NIV)

Jews are not idolaters, they value the second commandment before and keep the Sabbath as 24-hours separate from the rest of the week under God's direct instructions to obey the fourth commandment below:

“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. (Exodus 20:8-11 NIV)

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Phil W · Oct 14, 2019

guevaraj said:
Brother, God defines an idolater in the second commandment. The apostate Roman church put its idolatrous tradition above the word of God, eliminating the second commandment and dividing the last in two so that they can lie to keep their idols against God's word with their modified ten commandments. They deceive the world by saying that they keep the commandments when they have removed the second commandment below:

Why don't you keep every day holy?

Jews are not idolaters, they value the second commandment before and keep the Sabbath as 24-hours separate from the rest of the week under God's direct instructions to obey the fourth commandment below:
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

Those who worship rites and rituals above God are idolaters.
If you want to follow "laws", then love God above all else and your neighbor as you love yourself.
Every day.

guevaraj · Oct 15, 2019

Phil W said:
Why don't you keep every day holy?

Brother, you don't know what it means! God only made one day of the week in Eden "holy" and not all week. Making the seventh day in Eden "holy", fixed the Sabbath in the time zone of Eden and separated the Sabbath from the week that circles the earth when the Sabbath does not circle the earth as the week does. The Sabbath started out as the seventh day of the week in Eden, but the Sabbath is not a day of the week anywhere else. In one place in the world, the seventh day of the week is like every other day and the Sabbath, at that site, falls on the sixth day of the week, a Friday, instead of a Saturday as in Eden.

Phil W said:
Those who worship rites and rituals above God are idolaters. If you want to follow "laws", then love God above all else and your neighbor as you love yourself. Every day.

It is God who defined how to love Him and neighbor when He wrote the ten commandments with His own finger. You think that loving God and neighbor is a new command of Jesus that replaced the old, when it is not a new command, it comes from the beginning written by God's own finger. Listen to an expert in the law confess it and Jesus confirm it:

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” (Luke 10:25-28 NIV)

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Phil W · Oct 15, 2019

guevaraj said:
Brother, you don't know what it means! God only made one day of the week in Eden "holy" and not all week. Making the seventh day in Eden "holy", fixed the Sabbath in the time zone of Eden and separated the Sabbath from the week that circles the earth when the Sabbath does not circle the earth as the week does. The Sabbath started out as the seventh day of the week in Eden, but the Sabbath is not a day of the week anywhere else. In one place in the world, the seventh day of the week is like every other day and the Sabbath, at that site, falls on the sixth day of the week, a Friday, instead of a Saturday as in Eden.

Thank God we are in a new covenant: one where we can keep every day holy as we rest in Christ.
By confining holiness towards God to one day, you deprive yourself of His holiness for six days a week.
Why are you any less holy in Wednesday or Thursday?

It is God who defined how to love Him and neighbor when He wrote the ten commandments with His own finger. You think that loving God and neighbor is a new command of Jesus that replaced the old, when it is not a new command, it comes from the beginning written by God's own finger. Listen to an expert in the law confess it and Jesus confirm it:

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” (Luke 10:25-28 NIV)

Is circumcision also "required" to honor God?

I thank God for the NT life, free of all laws but to love God above all else and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
And, thanks be to God, I can love and honor God everyday of the week!

guevaraj · Oct 16, 2019

Phil W said:
Thank God we are in a new covenant: one where we can keep every day holy as we rest in Christ. By confining holiness towards God to one day, you deprive yourself of His holiness for six days a week. Why are you any less holy in Wednesday or Thursday?

Brother, we think differently than God thinks, that is why we have not fully understood the Sabbath.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9 NIV)

In Eden, God made holy the seventh day and called what He made holy the Sabbath, and we think we know what He did, but we don't. Our traditional view of the Sabbath is different from God’s view of the Sabbath as revealed in His word. It all comes down to who defines what it means to make a day holy, we must let God define His terms and you prefer your own point of view opposed to God’s point of view in His word. You do the same thing with the word love; you want your own definition opposed to God's minimalist definition in the ten commandments.

Phil W said:
Is circumcision also "required" to honor God?

God made visible the “circumcision of the heart by the Holy Spirit” with its “shadow” that makes clear God’s work to end sin and not the law in our hearts that would otherwise be invisible to us and distorted in our want to end the law instead of the sin in our heart.

"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." (Hebrews 10:16 NIV)

God gave us a way to see and understand a reality unseen and otherwise distorted without the clear shadow that shows God’s work to end sin and not the law in our hearts. Circumcision ends sin in our heart, not your distorted removal of the law so that we do not see the sin in our heart that the Holy Spirit helps us end.

Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker. A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God. (Romans 2:25-29 NIV)

The Holy Spirit helps us to end the sin in our hearts through a cycle of forgiveness towards fulfillment through constant practice, as do the people who prepare for the Olympic Games that with the help of their dedicated coach break world records. Even the best coach cannot help a person unwilling to do the daily work to reach the goal with the excuse that we no longer obey the law, no effort needed. Do not make the mistake of thinking that the Jews that preceded us are losers for having tried when we did not even try, God expects more from us and not less obedience to the law.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20 NIV)

God actually expects more from us and not less obedience to the law.

Phil W said:
I thank God for the NT life, free of all laws but to love God above all else and love your neighbor as you love yourself. And, thanks be to God, I can love and honor God everyday of the week!

Obeying the law means that God decides how to love. Your “lawless” love means that you have a view of how to love different from God’s view of love. Even criminals are capable of loving their own, it is the way you treat your enemies that shows that God’s love is different from that of criminals. It is God’s love that will matter in the end and not your own distorted view of it, no matter how much you “boast” of its quality, God's law shows that it does not fulfill the least love that God demands.

If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails… (1 Corinthians 13:3-8 NIV)

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Phil W · Oct 16, 2019

guevaraj said:
Brother, we think differently than God thinks, that is why we have not fully understood the Sabbath.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9 NIV)

If you wish to use that scripture to base an argument on, doesn't it apply to both of us?
How can your POV be any more valid than mine?

In Eden, God made holy the seventh day and called what He made holy the Sabbath, and we think we know what He did, but we don't. Our traditional view of the Sabbath is different from God’s view of the Sabbath as revealed in His word. It all comes down to who defines what it means to make a day holy, we must let God define His terms and you prefer your own point of view opposed to God’s point of view in His word. You do the same thing with the word love; you want your own definition opposed to God's minimalist definition in the ten commandments.

Isn't the point of the Sabbath to focus on God without distraction?
Or something like that?
If we can focus on God everyday, how is Saturday or Tuesday any different from one another?

God made visible the “circumcision of the heart by the Holy Spirit” with its “shadow” that makes clear God’s work to end sin and not the law in our hearts that would otherwise be invisible to us and distorted in our want to end the law instead of the sin in our heart.

In my POV, He did the same thing with the Sabbath.
What couldn't be seen before is now plainly lived by the holy people of God.
Our walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh is indicative of the lack of focus on anything besides God.

"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." (Hebrews 10:16 NIV)

God gave us a way to see and understand a reality unseen and otherwise distorted without the clear shadow that shows God’s work to end sin and not the law in our hearts. Circumcision ends sin in our heart, not your distorted removal of the law so that we do not see the sin in our heart that the Holy Spirit helps us end.

Can you write that with about half as many words?
It was so convoluted I couldn't understand it.

Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker. A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God. (Romans 2:25-29 NIV)

Other that going to church on Saturday, how else do you "keep the Law"?

The Holy Spirit helps us to end the sin in our hearts through a cycle of forgiveness towards fulfillment through constant practice, as do the people who prepare for the Olympic Games that with the help of their dedicated coach break world records. Even the best coach cannot help a person unwilling to do the daily work to reach the goal with the excuse that we no longer obey the law, no effort needed. Do not make the mistake of thinking that the Jews that preceded us are losers for having tried when we did not even try, God expects more from us and not less obedience to the law.

Frankly speaking, your "cycle" can be abbreviated to one REAL repentance from sin.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20 NIV)

Didn't He "fulfill" the Law?
As the fulfillment of the Law has already been accomplished, thanks be to God, what is the point of all this argument?

God actually expects more from us and not less obedience to the law.
Obeying the law means that God decides how to love. Your “lawless” love means that you have a view of how to love different from God’s view of love. Even criminals are capable of loving their own, it is the way you treat your enemies that shows that God’s love is different from that of criminals. It is God’s love that will matter in the end and not your own distorted view of it, no matter how much you “boast” of its quality, God's law shows that it does not fulfill the least love that God demands.

I agree that God expects more of us now that we can walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.
Thankfully, He has made it possible with all He has given us for that task.
Among those things is the ability to observe the Sabbath everyday of the week.
The temple is gone, the priesthood is gone, atonements are gone, feast keeping is gone, circumcision is gone, tithing is gone, dietary laws are gone, wearing blue thread in garments is gone.
Sabbaths are gone.
None of those things made a man holy.
They were all parts of the "shadow" of the coming Messiah and a new covenant.
If they had been able to make a man holy, there would have been no need for a Savior.

Man wasn't made for the Sabbath, the Sabbath as made for man. (Mark 2:27)

Bro. Dave Gardner · Oct 17, 2019

Phil W said:
Here is a 'curve ball' for you...
If every day is not the Lord's day to you, you are an idolater.
You hold certain days above our Lord's day, not honoring God six days a week.

Here's a four-seam fastball: Why would God dictate one commandment that makes another one on the same set of stone tables impossible to keep?

Why the silence of the Holy Spirit on Sunday against Saturday?

What did God call Sabbath?

The Sabbath is not the seventh local day of the week in Israel

The Sabbath is not the name of the seventh day of the week worldwide

The Sabbath is not a day of the week in the whole world

The Sabbath is an independent period to the week

The Sabbath is a 24-hour shared period for all people together

all of the above

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