LDS LDS Jesus Could Have Lost His Godhood

BigDaddy4 · Oct 8, 2019

He is the way said:
All of us are less than perfect and will lose our beauty as we grow old if we live that long. But we can become beautiful and glorious in the next life:

Another non-response. :sigh:

Rescued One · Oct 8, 2019

He is the way said:
All of us are less than perfect and will lose our beauty as we grow old if we live that long...

Who is less that perfect?

You, yourself, said that Zechariah and Elisabeth were blameless.

Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

The Law of Moses didn't save them.

10. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11. there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. 12. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." (Romans 3: 9-12).

IOW, everyone is under the power of Satan until they are brought to Christ. They were blameless in keeping the law of Moses, but God obviously wanted more.

Romans 3
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1 Samuel 16
7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

1 Peter 3
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

Hebrews 10
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

...14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

He is the way · Oct 8, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
Who is less that perfect?

You, yourself, said that Zechariah and Elisabeth were blameless.

Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

The Law of Moses didn't save them.

10. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11. there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. 12. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." (Romans 3: 9-12).

IOW, everyone is under the power of Satan until they are brought to Christ. They were blameless in keeping the law of Moses, but God obviously wanted more.

Romans 3
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1 Samuel 16
7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

1 Peter 3
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

Hebrews 10
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

...14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

You said: "
Who is less that perfect?

You, yourself, said that Zechariah and Elisabeth were blameless.

Yes they were blameless, but they did not have perfect bodies. Only spiritual resurrected bodies are perfect bodies.

He is the way · Oct 8, 2019

BigDaddy4 said:
Another non-response.

You said: "That is disgustingly racist. A "white and beautiful person"?? What was she, a black and ugly person?? Or is the 2019 spin on things now she would become a "pure and beautiful person"? At least one mormon on these threads has tried to defend the usage of "white" to mean "pure" in regards to the BOM usage." It is not racist, ALL of us are ugly or will become ugly if we live long enough and we can become pure and beautiful if we live right. He did not say she was a black ugly person, he was talking about the amazing body she will have.

dzheremi · Oct 8, 2019

He is the way said:
He did not say she was a black ugly person, he was talking about the amazing body she will have.

Rescued One · Oct 8, 2019

He is the way said:
You said: "
Who is less that perfect?

You, yourself, said that Zechariah and Elisabeth were blameless.

Yes they were blameless, but they did not have perfect bodies. Only spiritual resurrected bodies are perfect bodies.

So we're only talking about bodies? Why are we so concerned about bodies?

Rescued One · Oct 8, 2019

He is the way said:
You said: "That is disgustingly racist. A "white and beautiful person"?? What was she, a black and ugly person?? Or is the 2019 spin on things now she would become a "pure and beautiful person"? At least one mormon on these threads has tried to defend the usage of "white" to mean "pure" in regards to the BOM usage." It is not racist, ALL of us are ugly or will become ugly if we live long enough and we can become pure and beautiful if we live right. He did not say she was a black ugly person, he was talking about the amazing body she will have.

That isn't true. White did not mean pure.

"Having learned with extreme regret, that an article entitled, 'Free People of Color,' in the last number of the Star has been misunderstood, we feel in duty bound to state, in this Extra, that our intention was not only to stop free people of color from emigrating to this state, but to prevent them from being admitted as members of the Church." (History of the Church, 1:378-79)

"The day of the Lamanites in nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as white as Anglos; five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl- sixteen- sitting between the darker father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents- on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather. There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated." (Spencer W. Kimball, "The Day of the Lamanites," The Improvement, Era, Dec. 1960, p. 923)

"...the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory.”
- Mark E. Petersen, Race Problems as They Affect the Church, an address delivered at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, Brigham Young University, August 27,1954

"However, in a broad general sense, caste systems have their root and origin in the gospel itself, and when they operate according to the divine decree, the resultant restrictions and segregation are right and proper and have the approval of the Lord. To illustrate: Cain, Ham, and the whole negro race have been cursed with a black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a caste apart, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry."
- Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 114

Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 5
20 Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence.

21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

Attempts at damage control don't change the facts.

drstevej · Oct 9, 2019

wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

LDS god's racism
White = Delight
Black = Get Back

BigDaddy4 · Oct 9, 2019

He is the way said:
You said: "That is disgustingly racist. A "white and beautiful person"?? What was she, a black and ugly person?? Or is the 2019 spin on things now she would become a "pure and beautiful person"? At least one mormon on these threads has tried to defend the usage of "white" to mean "pure" in regards to the BOM usage." It is not racist, ALL of us are ugly or will become ugly if we live long enough and we can become pure and beautiful if we live right. He did not say she was a black ugly person, he was talking about the amazing body she will have.

That is some nice lds tap dancing you're doing. You should try out for "Dancing with the Inhabitants of Kolob". :tutu:

It is entirely racist to say that a black woman would become a white and beautiful person after she dies. I can't believe how easily you try to dismiss that. Additionally, your focus on physical, outward appearances is reminiscent of the fall of Lucifer due to his vanity. Is this part of "keeping the commandments"? Or did God say the He looks at the heart and not outward appearances?

Perhaps you should rethink where your theological allegiances lie. Your comments are not in alignment with God's word.

He is the way · Oct 9, 2019

BigDaddy4 said:
That is some nice lds tap dancing you're doing. You should try out for "Dancing with the Inhabitants of Kolob".

It is entirely racist to say that a black woman would become a white and beautiful person after she dies. I can't believe how easily you try to dismiss that. Additionally, your focus on physical, outward appearances is reminiscent of the fall of Lucifer due to his vanity. Is this part of "keeping the commandments"? Or did God say the He looks at the heart and not outward appearances?

Perhaps you should rethink where your theological allegiances lie. Your comments are not in alignment with God's word.

Perhaps you should rethink what he is talking about. It is the spirit world.

(Old Testament | Daniel 12:10)

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

(New Testament | Matthew 17:2)

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

(New Testament | Mark 9:3)

3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

(New Testament | Acts 1:10)

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

dzheremi · Oct 9, 2019

Why are you taking all of this stuff that is mostly (except for the verse in Daniel) about garments and trying to apply them to your theology, when it's very clearly a claim on the part of Mormon leaders about skin color?

Is the spirit world all about what color of apparel the people in it will be wearing?

He is the way · Oct 9, 2019

dzheremi said:
Why are you taking all of this stuff that is mostly (except for the verse in Daniel) about garments and trying to apply them to your theology, when it's very clearly a claim on the part of Mormon leaders about skin color?

Is the spirit world all about what color of apparel the people in it will be wearing?

(Old Testament | Daniel 12:9 - 10)

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

(Old Testament | Daniel 11:35)

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

(New Testament | Revelation 1:14)

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

BigDaddy4 · Oct 9, 2019

He is the way said:
Perhaps you should rethink what he is talking about. It is the spirit world.

Let's re-visit the original quote, lest you keep moving the goal posts to justify your church's racist history.

He is the way said:
There, he declared that she would receive all her temple blessings in the eternities and become a white and beautiful person, reflecting the Church's contemporary theology on race

Note the bold (mine). She is to become a white and beautiful person. It says nothing about a spirit.

dzheremi · Oct 9, 2019

He Is The Way, it is really annoying to me how you don't make your own arguments, but instead just post scriptures that you think make them for you with no further comment. This is irresponsible, since obviously scripture can be read in ways other than the Mormon way, so this doesn't actually answer anything.

Case in point:

He is the way said:
(Old Testament | Daniel 12:9 - 10)

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Apparently, if we go back to the original Hebrew, the verb used for "made white" is used as a synonym for purified. This works fine for Hebrew, but not so much for Mormonism, again because of that pesky "skin of blackness", which cannot be allegorical if we are to also believe the standard Mormon apologetics that this was a 'curse' given to one people so that they would not be attractive to other people (which is also from the BOM, is it not?). You cannot tell me or anyone with a straight face that the 'curse' which was meant to be a visual identifier was really about purity, as though skin is somehow something other than what it is, and moral/ethical/religious/whatever impurity is to be manifested via skin color but that's somehow not racist (whereas simply saying "black people aren't attractive, so they're obviously cursed by God" would be, so I guess the racist Mormon God is off the hook now because he's talking in a sort of code).

Again, the problem is not "black" vs. "white", the problem (for the apologetic replies) is "skin" vs. "internal purity/impurity". I am not aware of anywhere in the Bible where it says anything about the skin color of any people being a curse upon them for any reason.

This deals with the rest of your quotes as well, because you're trying to make the same connection over and over that simply cannot be made due to what your own book says, and what your own prophets and apologists have suggested in defense of it.

And, for goodness sake, verses from Revelation about the parousia are somehow evidence for the Bible's sanctioning of Mormon religious racism? Get outta here!

The take home point is this (and I hope to God that this will stop any further posting like the type you like to do, where you simply shoot verses at the forum in a scattered manner): No one is denying that the Bible uses "white" as a synonym for "pure" in several places, so posting verses over and over again that contain the words "white" and "pure" doesn't tell us anything, and really just looks like you did a word search on Bible Gateway or LDS.org or wherever and copied and pasted anything that looked good to you without considering its context or what it is actually describing.

He is the way · Oct 9, 2019

BigDaddy4 said:
Let's re-visit the original quote, lest you keep moving the goal posts to justify your church's racist history.

Note the bold (mine). She is to become a white and beautiful person. It says nothing about a spirit.

It is all about the afterlife because she was dead at the time. All of those who are washed in the blood of Jesus Christ will be white and pure whether they are black, red, yellow, brown or any other color. No one is pure white in this life.

There, he declared that she would receive all her temple blessings in the eternities and become a white and beautiful person, reflecting the Church's contemporary theology on race

dzheremi · Oct 9, 2019

That's it? So you're just going to ignore the last clause of the sentence that says "reflecting the Church's contemporary theology on race"?

This was a racial claim. And not just for one or two guys here and there, but for over 100 years in your religion.

He is the way · Oct 9, 2019

dzheremi said:
He Is The Way, it is really annoying to me how you don't make your own arguments, but instead just post scriptures that you think make them for you with no further comment. This is irresponsible, since obviously scripture can be read in ways other than the Mormon way, so this doesn't actually answer anything.

Case in point:

Apparently, if we go back to the original Hebrew, the verb used for "made white" is used as a synonym for purified. This works fine for Hebrew, but not so much for Mormonism, again because of that pesky "skin of blackness", which cannot be allegorical if we are to also believe the standard Mormon apologetics that this was a 'curse' given to one people so that they would not be attractive to other people (which is also from the BOM, is it not?). You cannot tell me or anyone with a straight face that the 'curse' which was meant to be a visual identifier was really about purity, as though skin is somehow something other than what it is, and moral/ethical/religious/whatever impurity is to be manifested via skin color but that's somehow not racist (whereas simply saying "black people aren't attractive, so they're obviously cursed by God" would be, so I guess the racist Mormon God is off the hook now because he's talking in a sort of code).

Again, the problem is not "black" vs. "white", the problem (for the apologetic replies) is "skin" vs. "internal purity/impurity". I am not aware of anywhere in the Bible where it says anything about the skin color of any people being a curse upon them for any reason.

This deals with the rest of your quotes as well, because you're trying to make the same connection over and over that simply cannot be made due to what your own book says, and what your own prophets and apologists have suggested in defense of it.

And, for goodness sake, verses from Revelation about the parousia are somehow evidence for the Bible's sanctioning of Mormon religious racism? Get outta here!

The take home point is this (and I hope to God that this will stop any further posting like the type you like to do, where you simply shoot verses at the forum in a scattered manner): No one is denying that the Bible uses "white" as a synonym for "pure" in several places, so posting verses over and over again that contain the words "white" and "pure" doesn't tell us anything, and really just looks like you did a word search on Bible Gateway or LDS.org or wherever and copied and pasted anything that looked good to you without considering its context or what it is actually describing.

You were saying that the scriptures I posted were about clothing, so I posted scriptures that were about the body being white.

You said: "This works fine for Hebrew, but not so much for Mormonism, again because of that pesky "skin of blackness", which cannot be allegorical if we are to also believe the standard Mormon apologetics that this was a 'curse' given to one people so that they would not be attractive to other people (which is also from the BOM, is it not?)."

It is, but we do not decided what God does or why He does it. God has cursed people since He cursed Cain. Here is one example:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 11:26 - 28)

26 ¶ Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Who was it that made man black, red, yellow, brown, or any other color? That being said, He expects us to LOVE everyone and forgive everyone.

Peter1000 · Oct 9, 2019

drstevej said:
LDS god's racism
White = Delight
Black = Get Back

God is not racist. But he did choose Israel to be his people, and he would be their God. What about that? Would you say that represents racism on the part of God?

dzheremi · Oct 9, 2019

It is, but we do not decided what God does or why He does it.

So basically, your God is a racist.

We already know that. Do you have anything else?

God has cursed people since He cursed Cain. Here is one example:

We don't need any examples. That's not the issue. Of course God has cursed people, of course white was used as a synonym for pure, etc., etc. Nobody is contesting any of that. AGAIN: THE PROBLEM IS THE RACISM.

The God of Christianity (the true God) does not 'curse' people by making them a certain skin color.

Who was it that made man black, red, yellow, brown, or any other color?

Again, nobody is claiming that God didn't make people of different races or skin colors or whatever.

That being said, He expects us to LOVE everyone and forgive everyone.

Pfft. It's really, really hard to stomach your constant reflexive falling back on love (er, excuse me, LOVE) in contexts like this. I don't see what's loving at all about being a racist jerk.

BigDaddy4 · Oct 9, 2019

He is the way said:
It is all about the afterlife because she was dead at the time. All of those who are washed in the blood of Jesus Christ will be white and pure whether they are black, red, yellow, brown or any other color. No one is pure white in this life.

There, he declared that she would receive all her temple blessings in the eternities and become a white and beautiful person, reflecting the Church's contemporary theology on race

Perhaps you are not understanding the underlined statement, which makes it blatantly racist.

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