LDS LDS Jesus Could Have Lost His Godhood

[dzheremi]

Both of my parents were LDS and I was baptized when I was 8 years old. That being said, just like the apostle Peter, I needed to be converted. I had already studied the Old and New testament and the Book of Mormon along with church history. But I needed to know if it was true. There were mountains near my home so I went up into the mountains to pray. After I prayed nothing happened. However God does answer prayers, but it is in His own time and not ours. However God expects us to seek Him and that is what I did. God helped guide my path and eventually I like Peter, was converted. The Lord let me know that His church was restored to the earth through His prophet Joseph Smith. The Lord God knows that I know that and if I ever denied it I would be lying against God. I am a witness for Jesus Christ.

Oh, okay. I'm not here to pick on your testimony or whatever, but I had a different idea in mind when I asked you if you had personally studied all of these things away from the influence of anything else. This isn't that (though it's not like that's a strike against you or anything; none of us can or should have to account for the family we were born into). If you grew up in an LDS home and had baptism at 8 as the LDS do and all of this, then you didn't really come to the faith in the LDS religion outside of the wider theological, cultural, and social structure that is all designed to produce exactly the kinds of conclusions that you eventually came to.

But thank you for explaining how it went for you.

 

[He is the way]

Oh, okay. I'm not here to pick on your testimony or whatever, but I had a different idea in mind when I asked you if you had personally studied all of these things away from the influence of anything else. This isn't that (though it's not like that's a strike against you or anything; none of us can or should have to account for the family we were born into). If you grew up in an LDS home and had baptism at 8 as the LDS do and all of this, then you didn't really come to the faith in the LDS religion outside of the wider theological, cultural, and social structure that is all designed to produce exactly the kinds of conclusions that you eventually came to.

But thank you for explaining how it went for you.

My wife was raised Catholic so she had a different conversion story than I did.

 

[Rescued One]

I must say that Christians don't pray to Joseph Smith's god. That's why Mormons
receive different answers.

"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
Proverbs 14:12

 

[He is the way]

I must say that Christians don't pray to Joseph Smith's god. That's why Mormons
receive different answers.

"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
Proverbs 14:12

Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, he did not own God, he did the work God gave him to do. That is what we should do also:

(New Testament | Matthew 5:16 - 19)

6 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[dzheremi]

Joseph Smith was a prophet of God [...] he did the work God gave him to do.

Not found:

- Pretend to translate things with a rock in a hat.
-Pretend to translate things written by 'Abraham' that are actually common Egyptian funerary texts that have nothing to do with Abraham. Bonus points if you can throw some racism against black people in there.
-'Restore' the 'temple practices' that just so happen to closely follow the rituals of masonry.
- Marry a bunch of teenage girls and women who are already married to other people.
-Attempt to secretly set up a theocratic government with yourself as the head of it. (see: The Council of Fifty)
-Make 'prophecies' that don't happen.
-Have black women 'sealed' to use as servants in the afterlife. (see: Jane Manning James)
-Start an 'anti-banking company' that defrauds people by issuing notes without adequate reserves to back them up.
-Kill two people with a gun in the jail that you were 'martyred' in.

Etc., etc.

 

[mmksparbud]

Have black women 'sealed' to use as servants in the afterlife. (see: Jane Manning James)

Really?? They will have black slaves in heaven???!!!

 

[dzheremi]

Really?? They will have black slaves in heaven???!!!

Well, servants at any rate. Here's more info on Jane Manning James from an interview with a non-Mormon historian who wrote a book on her, if you're interested. Here's a relevant (and disturbing) quote:

The corollary to the priesthood ban was the temple restriction, which kept people of African descent out of endowment and sealing rituals. From the 1880s until her death in 1908, Jane keeps pestering church leaders for permission to be sealed to Joseph Smith as a child, which she said he had offered to her. During that time, a lot of other white Saints were asking to be sealed to Joseph Smith as a child, and it was granted to them. So she’s asking for this thing that other Mormons around her are getting, but she keeps hearing no, and I think that’s because the leaders just can’t imagine Joseph Smith having a black daughter for eternity.

Finally, the leaders get fed up and compromise by creating a ceremony that seals her to Joseph Smith, but not as a daughter. Instead they seal her as a servant. They do that sealing in the Salt Lake Temple in 1894. Jane is alive and well at the time, but she is not allowed to be present. Zina Young stands as a proxy for Jane, and Joseph F. Smith stands as a proxy for [his uncle] Joseph Smith.

She’s sealed to Joseph Smith as a servant, which is a role she had played in her mortal life, since she had been a servant in his household in Nauvoo. So church leaders set her up to play that role for all of eternity.
​

---

indeed.

And also .

 

[mmksparbud]

Well, servants at any rate. Here's more info on Jane Manning James from an interview with a non-Mormon historian who wrote a book on her, if you're interested. Here's a relevant (and disturbing) quote:

The corollary to the priesthood ban was the temple restriction, which kept people of African descent out of endowment and sealing rituals. From the 1880s until her death in 1908, Jane keeps pestering church leaders for permission to be sealed to Joseph Smith as a child, which she said he had offered to her. During that time, a lot of other white Saints were asking to be sealed to Joseph Smith as a child, and it was granted to them. So she’s asking for this thing that other Mormons around her are getting, but she keeps hearing no, and I think that’s because the leaders just can’t imagine Joseph Smith having a black daughter for eternity.

Finally, the leaders get fed up and compromise by creating a ceremony that seals her to Joseph Smith, but not as a daughter. Instead they seal her as a servant. They do that sealing in the Salt Lake Temple in 1894. Jane is alive and well at the time, but she is not allowed to be present. Zina Young stands as a proxy for Jane, and Joseph F. Smith stands as a proxy for [his uncle] Joseph Smith.

She’s sealed to Joseph Smith as a servant, which is a role she had played in her mortal life, since she had been a servant in his household in Nauvoo. So church leaders set her up to play that role for all of eternity.
​

---

indeed.

And also .

Thank God this was only a one time thing! I thought this would end up as a common practice, glad that it wasn't---once is more than enough! She couldn't even be present for the ceremony because she's black! I can't even find the words!

 

[He is the way]

Not found:

- Pretend to translate things with a rock in a hat.
-Pretend to translate things written by 'Abraham' that are actually common Egyptian funerary texts that have nothing to do with Abraham. Bonus points if you can throw some racism against black people in there.
-'Restore' the 'temple practices' that just so happen to closely follow the rituals of masonry.
- Marry a bunch of teenage girls and women who are already married to other people.
-Attempt to secretly set up a theocratic government with yourself as the head of it. (see: The Council of Fifty)
-Make 'prophecies' that don't happen.
-Have black women 'sealed' to use as servants in the afterlife. (see: Jane Manning James)
-Start an 'anti-banking company' that defrauds people by issuing notes without adequate reserves to back them up.
-Kill two people with a gun in the jail that you were 'martyred' in.

Etc., etc.

Name the two people that Joseph Smith supposedly killed.

 

[He is the way]

Well, servants at any rate. Here's more info on Jane Manning James from an interview with a non-Mormon historian who wrote a book on her, if you're interested. Here's a relevant (and disturbing) quote:

The corollary to the priesthood ban was the temple restriction, which kept people of African descent out of endowment and sealing rituals. From the 1880s until her death in 1908, Jane keeps pestering church leaders for permission to be sealed to Joseph Smith as a child, which she said he had offered to her. During that time, a lot of other white Saints were asking to be sealed to Joseph Smith as a child, and it was granted to them. So she’s asking for this thing that other Mormons around her are getting, but she keeps hearing no, and I think that’s because the leaders just can’t imagine Joseph Smith having a black daughter for eternity.

Finally, the leaders get fed up and compromise by creating a ceremony that seals her to Joseph Smith, but not as a daughter. Instead they seal her as a servant. They do that sealing in the Salt Lake Temple in 1894. Jane is alive and well at the time, but she is not allowed to be present. Zina Young stands as a proxy for Jane, and Joseph F. Smith stands as a proxy for [his uncle] Joseph Smith.

She’s sealed to Joseph Smith as a servant, which is a role she had played in her mortal life, since she had been a servant in his household in Nauvoo. So church leaders set her up to play that role for all of eternity.
​

---

indeed.

And also .

No one is sealed as a servant. Apparently there are people who don't know that.

 

[dzheremi]

No one is sealed as a servant. Apparently there are people who don't know that.

This happened to Jane Manning James, so obviously at least one person is.

 

[dzheremi]

Name the two people that Joseph Smith supposedly killed.

My apologies. My source on this was John Taylor, the eventual third president of the Mormon religion (who was present during the events of that day), but after doing more research on the matter, it seems that his assertion was based on what he had heard had happened two out of the three people Joseph Smith shot that day (but they didn't actually die; he obviously didn't know that at the time).

So change "killed two people" to "wounded three people". It's still not anything that God tells His apostles to do. St. Paul didn't attempt to shoot his way out of jail.

 

[He is the way]

This happened to Jane Manning James, so obviously at least one person is.

Perhaps you are right, however "Jane Elizabeth Manning James died April 16, 1908, in Salt Lake City. Despite her circumstances, it is apparent that she died on good terms with the LDS Church. Church President Joseph F. Smith spoke at her funeral.[5] There, he declared that she would receive all her temple blessings in the eternities and become a white and beautiful person, reflecting the Church's contemporary theology on race.[12] According to The Deseret News, her funeral was attended by many."

From: Jane Manning James - Wikipedia

The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints is in the process of making a film about her.

 

[He is the way]

My apologies. My source on this was John Taylor, the eventual third president of the Mormon religion (who was present during the events of that day), but after doing more research on the matter, it seems that his assertion was based on what he had heard had happened two out of the three people Joseph Smith shot that day (but they didn't actually die; he obviously didn't know that at the time).

So change "killed two people" to "wounded three people". It's still not anything that God tells His apostles to do. St. Paul didn't attempt to shoot his way out of jail.

St. Paul did not have a gun as there were no guns at that time, but Peter wounded a servant of the high priest with his sword trying to stop the arrest of Jesus.

 

[dzheremi]

St. Paul did not have a gun as there were no guns at that time, but Peter wounded a servant of the high priest with his sword trying to stop the arrest of Jesus.

Yes, and how did Christ, Who is God, respond?

Did He say "Well done, Peter! You have done the work God the Father has given you!"?

 

[He is the way]

Yes, and how did Christ, Who is God, respond?

Did He say "Well done, Peter! You have done the work God the Father has given you!"?

Jesus corrected Peter as he did at other times. Peter still became president of Christ's church. He also corrected Joseph Smith on many occasions. I believe Joseph Smith died trying to protect the lives of those there with him. He had prophesied some of what would happen:
Dr. Richards' escape was miraculous; he being a very large man, and in the midst of a shower of balls, yet he stood unscathed, with the exception of a ball which grazed the tip end of the lower part of his left ear. His escape fulfilled literally a prophecy which Joseph made over a year previously, that the time would come that the balls would fly around him like hail, and he should see his friends fall on the right and on the left, but that there should not be a hole in his garment. (History of the Church, 6:619)

 

[BigDaddy4]

There, he declared that she would receive all her temple blessings in the eternities and become a white and beautiful person, reflecting the Church's contemporary theology on race.

That is disgustingly racist. A "white and beautiful person"?? What was she, a black and ugly person?? Or is the 2019 spin on things now she would become a "pure and beautiful person"? At least one mormon on these threads has tried to defend the usage of "white" to mean "pure" in regards to the BOM usage.

 

[mmksparbud]

No one is sealed as a servant. Apparently there are people who don't know that.

Including JS and Jane.

 

[He is the way]

That is disgustingly racist. A "white and beautiful person"?? What was she, a black and ugly person?? Or is the 2019 spin on things now she would become a "pure and beautiful person"? At least one mormon on these threads has tried to defend the usage of "white" to mean "pure" in regards to the BOM usage.

All of us are less than perfect and will lose our beauty as we grow old if we live that long. But we can become beautiful and glorious in the next life:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:40 - 49)

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

(New Testament | Romans 8:18 - 21)

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

 

[Peter1000]

Really?? They will have black slaves in heaven???!!!

Please!