Is Struggling with sin normal?

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,349
Winnipeg
✟236,538.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Now my question....if a Christian (truly born again) is to remain sinless after salvation why are there so many scriptures addressing confessing and repenting of our sins throughout the OT and NT?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Oh and the 7 Churches in Revelation are addressed specifically regarding their faults that God speaks to and instructs them what to d9 to fix it.....

Ok, thanks...fyi the verses above and other verses like them that are throughout the Bible makes me believe their is sin after salvation.

Sinless perfection is not what Scripture teaches. Really, it is precisely because none of us can or will ever live perfectly holy lives that the perfect righteousness of Christ must be imputed to us. We cannot ever be acceptable to God on the basis of our conduct. It is ONLY on the basis of our being in Christ, clothed in his perfect righteousness, that God can receive us as His children. We are "accepted IN the Beloved," Paul wrote (Ephesians 1:6), not on the basis of our ability to live sinless lives.

And so, we don't read of sinlessly perfect Christians in the New Testament (or of perfect OT saints, either). Instead, we have Paul's first letter to the Corinthian Christians in which he rebukes them repeatedly and severely for their gross and willful sin. (1 Corinthians 3:1-3; 1 Corinthians 5; 1 Corinthians 6; 1 Corinthians 11, etc.) Paul doesn't threaten the Corinthians with lost salvation, or refer to them as unsaved, but frequently confirms that - sinful as they are - they are still fellow children of God (1 Corinthians 3:1, 9, 16, 23; 1 Corinthians 4:6, 10, 14-15, etc.)

It is important, too, to recognize as you have that the churches in the Revelation that were rebuked had not been cast out from God. Despite their various failures, the churches were still God's churches. The Spirit, for instance, doesn't say to the Laodicean church that its apathy had ejected it from God's kingdom. But if sinless perfection is the normal Christian life and any sin removes one from God's family, then the lukewarm Laodiceans should not have been counted as one of God's churches.

In the New Testament, we also see Paul urging Timothy to "reprove, rebuke, exhort" the believers in his charge (1 Timothy 5:20; 2 Timothy 4:2). But if genuine believers are all sinless, what need is their to do such things? The sinlessly perfect have no faults or failures that require rebuke.

And so on. Why is it that people are drawn to the sinless perfection stuff? Because it appeals inevitably to Self. The works-salvation/lost-salvation/sinlessly-perfect folk are all motivated by Self-preservation, by the fear of Self being destroyed; they are at the center of their lives, doing for God, meeting the standard, being faithful and perfect, rather than Christ being their all-in-all; they are the ones working out their salvation, not God, a rare breed who understand the truth where all others have settled for lies. It is a sad and dark way to live, inevitably characterized by hypocrisy, legalism, frustration and shame.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RaymondG

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2016
8,545
3,816
USA
✟268,974.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I disagree with this view.... Just because you believe... does not make it truth.

You are correct......What I believe is not necessary true for you, or in general.....It is only truth for me. But there are some whose faith can over power the unbelief of others.....say in healing, for instance. But even the Savior did limited work in some towns because of unbelief. Our beliefs are strong....and it is important to guard our minds....only letting in things we desire to live by......

You think that I have no salvation? That's an arrogant assumption.

Do you consider yourself among these "few perfect people"?
It seems that you are speaking to yourself here..... as I only spoke about myself in the message you quoted.... if you read it again, not looking for darkness...you will see that nothing was said about you in that paragraph. You however, boldly call all Christians sinners, instead of just talking about yourself......for which, I find no fault.

This doesn't even address my point. Not even in the least.. It's just wordage.... I think that today they call that a "nothing burger".
Maybe these words were for someone else....feel free to ignore that which you do not, yet, understand.

What are you even talking about?
see above comment
More verbiage...
Good observation.

Hey.. if you think that you live this life and don't sin... good for you.. I have never met someone like you........ever.... And I know a lot of very fine upstanding God fearing Christians that I hope, some day to be able to be called equal to... AND.... they still sin.
Yes I agree, I am peculiar.....almost alien like. I dont find many like me either....My walk being mainly solitary even though there are hundreds around me all the time.

Find comfort in trying to pattern yourself after God Fearing men that sin......I find not fault in it.

Would you mind if I try to pattern myself after the one who knew no sin? Or should we all only aim to be god fearing sinners?

And note, even though you attribute actions and belief to me...these are your attributes based off your interpretations of my words. For I only state, that I can do nothing.

There is no such thing as too much faith... there is such a thing as being blind to your sins.

Wouldnt the one most blind to sin, be the one that continues in it? If one has no sin....they must have taken account of the sin and allowed it to be removed.. One who sins and believe they have to and therefore need not worry about it....can turn a blind eye to it......because everyone does it..., according to them.
 
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
76
Tennessee
✟140,294.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Romans 7 is not an unsaved person... Unsaved people don't care about their sins... they don't need a savior... remember?

Romans 7 is about those under the law. Are you under the law?
 
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
76
Tennessee
✟140,294.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Sinless perfection is not what Scripture teaches. Really, it is precisely because none of us can or will ever live perfectly holy lives that the perfect righteousness of Christ must be imputed to us. We cannot ever be acceptable to God on the basis of our conduct. It is ONLY on the basis of our being in Christ, clothed in his perfect righteousness, that God can receive us as His children. We are "accepted IN the Beloved," Paul wrote (Ephesians 1:6), not on the basis of our ability to live sinless lives.

And so, we don't read of sinlessly perfect Christians in the New Testament (or of perfect OT saints, either). Instead, we have Paul's first letter to the Corinthian Christians in which he rebukes them repeatedly and severely for their gross and willful sin. (1 Corinthians 3:1-3; 1 Corinthians 5; 1 Corinthians 6; 1 Corinthians 11, etc.) Paul doesn't threaten the Corinthians with lost salvation, or refer to them as unsaved, but frequently confirms that - sinful as they are - they are still fellow children of God (1 Corinthians 3:1, 9, 16, 23; 1 Corinthians 4:6, 10, 14-15, etc.)

It is important, too, to recognize as you have that the churches in the Revelation that are rebuked have not been cast out from God. Despite their various failures, the churches are still God's churches. The Spirit, for instance, doesn't say to the Laodicean church that its apathy has ejected it from God's kingdom. But if sinless perfection is the normal Christian life and any sin removes one from God's family, then the lukewarm Laodiceans should not have been counted as one of God's churches.

In the New Testament, we also see Paul urging Timothy to "reprove, rebuke, exhort" the believers in his charge (1 Timothy 5:20; 2 Timothy 4:2). But if genuine believers are all sinless, what need is their to do such things? The sinlessly perfect have no faults or failures that require rebuke.

And so on. Why is it that people are drawn to the sinless perfection stuff? Because it appeals inevitably to Self. The works-salvation/lost-salvation/sinlessly-perfect folk are all motivated by Self-preservation, by the fear of Self being destroyed; they are at the center of their lives, doing for God, meeting the standard, being faithful and perfect, rather than Christ being their all-in-all; they are the ones working out their salvation, not God, a rare breed who understand the truth where all others have settled for lies. It is a sad and dark way to live, inevitably characterized by hypocrisy, legalism, frustration and shame.

And what if you are wrong, and Jesus is right? John 8:34-36
 
  • Like
Reactions: RaymondG
Upvote 0

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,282
6,485
62
✟570,686.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Romans 7 is about those under the law. Are you under the law?
I disagree. Romans 7 is about a Christian dealing with the sin they still commit even though they try not to...It is the conflict of the inner righteous heart and the sinful flesh.

Christians sin... but they care and try not to.

Unbelievers sin... but they only care due to the morals of society and.......lately.... these are slipping rapidly.
 
Upvote 0

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,282
6,485
62
✟570,686.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
You are correct......What I believe is not necessary true for you, or in general.....It is only truth for me. But there are some whose faith can over power the unbelief of others.....say in healing, for instance. But even the Savior did limited work in some towns because of unbelief. Our beliefs are strong....and it is important to guard our minds....only letting in things we desire to live by......

There is only one truth. There is not a truth for you and a truth for me.
The rest of your post is cryptic.


It seems that you are speaking to yourself here..... as I only spoke about myself in the message you quoted.... if you read it again, not looking for darkness...you will see that nothing was said about you in that paragraph. You however, boldly call all Christians sinners, instead of just talking about yourself......for which, I find no fault.
You stated:

Time spent counting the righteous would be time better spent working out our own salvation.

Only those that are not saved need to work out their salvation. You were indicating that I was not saved..
So... don't state:

It seems that you are speaking to yourself here..... as I only spoke about myself in the message you quoted.

I boldly call Christians sinners because we all are. Stating that we are not... is untruthful.



Find comfort in trying to pattern yourself after God Fearing men that sin......I find not fault in it.

Not sure what you mean here.. but.....

Would you mind if I try to pattern myself after the one who knew no sin? Or should we all only aim to be god fearing sinners?

OK... let me spell it out for you.

I aim, like you have stated, to pattern myself after Christ... However, if I reach an equal to some people that I hold as having a high standard as Christians... I will consider myself doing very well...

Is that more clear?

Wouldnt the one most blind to sin, be the one that continues in it? If one has no sin....they must have taken account of the sin and allowed it to be removed.. One who sins and believe they have to and therefore need not worry about it....can turn a blind eye to it......because everyone does it..., according to them.

OK, you seem to be confused.... Sinners are still aware of the fact that they sin. They just don't care. Or, if they do, it is due to social morals... not a desire to be more like Christ.

Second, I don't sin because I have to... I sin because I sin even though I strive not to. I am not turning a blind eye to it. I ask for forgiveness and move on trying to achieve my goal of being like Christ taught.
 
Upvote 0

RaymondG

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2016
8,545
3,816
USA
✟268,974.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There is only one truth. There is not a truth for you and a truth for me.
The rest of your post is cryptic.

Yes there is one truth.....but it is not revealed to all at the same time and magnitude.... For we are not able to bear it....therefore most get milk only....for they would choke on meat.

However the truth needs to be believed before it is realized in us. If I told you I put 1 Mill in everyones bank account.....it is truth, whether you believe it or not. If you dont believe, it is not truth to you and you cannot benefit from it. Likewise, if you stop at belief....it is still not truth to you...because you havent verified it's existence. But to those who believe up unto the bank to withdrawn the 1Mill.....the same shall be saved...

There was one truth for the unbeliever, another for the believer, and yet another for the one saved by grace through faith....even though the reality is One

You stated:

Time spent counting the righteous would be time better spent working out our own salvation.


Only those that are not saved need to work out their salvation. You were indicating that I was not saved..
So... don't state:

It seems that you are speaking to yourself here..... as I only spoke about myself in the message you quoted.

I was quoting a verse that states "Work out your own Salvation" I changed the "your" to "our" to limit the opportunity to find darkness, for those looking for it...... Ill try to do a better job, next time.

I boldly call Christians sinners because we all are. Stating that we are not... is untruthful.

I see no wrong in speaking what you see and believe. I would only encourage you to think more positively of yourself and others in the religion.

Jesus called those that wished to follow Him, "Light's of the world". What do you think about calling Christians "future lights of the world".....instead of sinners?

Not sure what you mean here.. but.....
Maybe these words were for someone else....feel free to ignore that which you do not, yet, understand.

OK... let me spell it out for you.

I aim, like you have stated, to pattern myself after Christ... However, if I reach an equal to some people that I hold as having a high standard as Christians... I will consider myself doing very well...

Is that more clear?

This sounds like aiming for the Sun and landing on the moon.

The way to life is not found this haphazardly. We should aim for Christ, seeking Him with all our heart.....not being satisfied with anything lesser.

OK, you seem to be confused.... Sinners are still aware of the fact that they sin. They just don't care. Or, if they do, it is due to social morals... not a desire to be more like Christ.
I was the most confused, when I knew all there was to know about being saved.... Lets move pass the discussion about why sinners sin, and go unto why good trees produce good fruit...

Second, I don't sin because I have to... I sin because I sin even though I strive not to. I am not turning a blind eye to it. I ask for forgiveness and move on trying to achieve my goal of being like Christ taught.
I appreciate that you are attributing sin to yourself and not others this time. Now if you would hear it.....there is a way to break this cycle of sinning and asking forgiveness. But this is only true for you, if you are willing to go to the bank and withdraw that 1 Mill.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
76
Tennessee
✟140,294.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
I disagree. Romans 7 is about a Christian dealing with the sin they still commit even though they try not to...It is the conflict of the inner righteous heart and the sinful flesh.

Christians sin... but they care and try not to.

Unbelievers sin... but they only care due to the morals of society and.......lately.... these are slipping rapidly.

Did the Jews who did not believe in Jesus and that He was the Messiah, still try to keep the law? Of course they did.

Romans 7 is about them trying to keep the law, but were powerless because they still had sinful flesh. You believe we still have sinful flesh, and maybe you do and can't see past it. But I and many others don't. We walk in the Spirit. Romans 8 shows us that those who have been baptized with the Spirit are free from sin in the flesh. They keep the righteous requirements of the law by the Spirit.

Romans chapters 1 through 8 are about sin, the law, and finally, the cure - the Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
76
Tennessee
✟140,294.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
And what if you are wrong and Jesus is right? See my last post.

Those who continue to sin, claiming they have imputed righteousness, have a 50-50 chance of making it to heaven (if their doctrine is true).

Those who walk in the Spirit of Christ and not in the flesh have a 100% chance of making it to heaven.

I like my odds.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,349
Winnipeg
✟236,538.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Those who continue to sin, claiming they have imputed righteousness, have a 50-50 chance of making it to heaven (if their doctrine is true).

Those who walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh have a 100% chance of making it to heaven.

I like my odds.

Well, like your question to me, there are a lot of assumptions, hidden premises, in your comments here. From where I stand, your odds are very poor - mainly because I don't think you even recognize the assumptions you make to arrive at your views.
 
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
76
Tennessee
✟140,294.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Well, like your question to me, there are a lot of assumptions, hidden premises, in your comments here. From where I stand, your odds are very poor - mainly because I don't think you even recognize the assumptions you make to arrive at your views.

Let me as you to take the test. Are your prayers answered? 100% of mine are. 1 John 3:21-23.
 
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
76
Tennessee
✟140,294.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
In Scripture, God hates those who call on lady luck (any odds). There are not odds involved, no chance at all.

In first John, it is written that those who continue to sin are liars, and the truth is not in them. (they don't make it, they are not saved).

This is the same for someone who thinks they walk in the Spirit of Christ, but continue to sin. (they don't make it, they are not saved).

I agree, but when you are dealing with false doctrines, you speak on their level, just as Paul did. Jesus came to put an end to the transgressions that have separated man from God. They are called sins. Those who continue in sin do not have the sinless Spirit of Christ in them. Those who walk in the flesh will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
76
Tennessee
✟140,294.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Upvote 0

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,349
Winnipeg
✟236,538.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Let me as you to take the test. Are your prayers answered? 100% of mine are. 1 John 3:21-23.

Every prayer of a genuine child of God is answered: Yes, No, or Wait. I suppose, though, that what you mean is that you receive everything you pray for. Right? The problem with this is that I have to take your word for it that what you're telling me is true. But anyone can say anything about themselves on these forums. For all I know, you could be some obese, pasty-faced, forty-something guy sitting at his computer in his underwear in the darkened basement of his parents' home. So, you're going to have to avoid claims about yourself when trying to establish your points.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
76
Tennessee
✟140,294.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Every prayer of a genuine child of God is answered: Yes, No, or Wait. I suppose, though, that what you mean is that you receive everything you pray for. Right? The problem with this is that I have to take your word for it that what you're telling me is true. But anyone can say anything about themselves on these forums. For all I know, you could be some obese, pasty-faced, forty-something guy sitting at his computer in his underwear in the darkened basement of his parents' home. So, you're going to have to avoid claims about yourself when trying to establish your points.

"No," is not a scriptural answer.

John 15:7
If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

1 John 3:22
22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

1 John 5:14-15
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RaymondG
Upvote 0