Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

Dave L · Jul 24, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
All of God's Word is holy. So I believe Matthew 7:6 is in reference to atheists or agnostics who despise God's Word and do not even accept it. For unbelieving Gentiles were referred to as dogs. So I do not believe your quoting of Matthew 7:6 really has nothing to do with why you are not presenting your case for your view of Soteriology. I am aware of the Eternal Security position or the "Sin and Still Be Saved" position for quite a long time now. I have heard all the verses and excuses before. You would not really be telling me anything new. I only challenge you and others because I believe you and others are incapable of defending your position.

I can easily look on the internet again for proof texts for your belief, but I would rather have you prove your own belief with Scripture (so as to show that your belief on this matter does not really have any real kind of foundation at all).

Also, you have to remember that you are not only talking to me, but others who can read this thread later, too. So even if I did not accept your message, there are others who may hear it. So to provide no answer is to simply show the inadequacy of Eternal Security or a "Sin and Still Be Saved" type belief to begin with. If you show no answer, it simply means there is no real biblical case you can make for your view of salvation.

So the ball is back in your court.

“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (NASB95)

“For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?” 1 John 5:4–5 (NASB95)

Here's how it works. Jesus paid for all of my sins, past, present, and future. And just as in America you cannot be punished twice for the same crime, as a Christian, I cannot be punished for any sin that God punished Jesus for in my place, no matter how serious. But, in view of that, God gave me a brand new nature that loves him and hates sin. So even if free to sin, It repulses me and I love the fullness of the Spirit that comes from holiness more than anything else.

Hammster · Jul 24, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
I made my case with Scripture. It is up to you to refute the points I made with Scripture. In other words, please explain the verses I brought forth in how you think they support your view and not my view.

Thank you; And may God bless you.

Well, I guess this is my fault. I took your OP to mean something different. I thought you wanted us to defend grace over works. I thought you wanted us to defend how the gospel was greater than the law. I thought you wanted to know if grace was greater than sin. I thought you wanted scripture to show that faith was greater than works. So I tried to show you, from scripture, that you cannot out-sin God’s love for His children. I’d really like to show you how God truly is a Father, and loves His children with an everlasting love. I’d love to show you that God’s love for us is so great, He punished His Son on our behalf. I’d love to show you that He would no sooner punish us for our sin than a dad would punish a toddler who stumbled while trying to learn to walk.

But that’s not what you want.

So, I’ll just bow out now.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 24, 2019

JIMINZ said:
...

Well, before I address the verses you posted, we need to address the problem of your understanding on sin and how you believe God takes care of it on the account of redeeming man. You said in another thread:

"The answer very simply is.
1 Jn. 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

No Disclaimers, no, Interpretations.

There aren't any degrees of sin, all sin requires the same penalty, of DEATH, that is why Jesus had to die on the Cross for your sins.

Any and All Sin separates us from God, Jesus Sacrifice Reconciles us to God."

by: ~ JIMINZ.

Source:
Post #14 - What is sin?

First, you said that there are no degrees of sin; However, the problem is that the apostle John tells us that there is "a sin NOT unto death."

So no. You statement that says that there are no degrees is false and does not align with what the Bible plainly says.

You also said in that other thread:

"When Jesus died on the Cross, He did not only die for our sins, He actually became our sin, He took our sin on to himself, that is why He said."

by: ~ JIMINZ.

Source:
Post #14 - What is sin?

If I am to understand you correctly here based on how you lump all sin together, and how you believe Jesus became our sin, and your statements made in this thread that a believer cannot sin, I am assuming that you are saying that when a Christian physically sins (whereby others can see him physically sin and or they can witness themselves physically sinning) that such sin does not exist in the eyes of God because Jesus paid for those sins, past, present, and future. If I am correct in understanding you here, this means that you are saying that when a believer sins physically, it does not exist on a spiritual level with God or the Lord, and therefore such sin cannot condemn a believer.

You said:
Remember I said you were asking Believers to defend a False Premise, well this is the reason why. Now you know good and well there are no such verses in all of Scripture, but these are.

Do not assume that I believe as you do. I do not see how the Bible teaches that a believer's future sin is paid for and is non-existent in the eyes of God.

1 John 1:8 says,
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

This verse is a warning for those who think that sin does not exist for them when they do sin. They either think sin is an illusion (like the Christian Scientist), or they think sin is non-existent in the eyes of God because Jesus paid for their future sin (like with the Eternal Security Proponent, or the "Sin and Still Be Saved" Type Believer).

John tells us that sin does actually exist for the believer because he tells them to "sin not" (1 John 2:1). Also, future sin is not paid for (whereby sin is not existent for the believer in God's eyes) because John tells the brethren that if we confess of their sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

You said:
Rom 6:1,2
1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Again, sin exists according to Paul. He asks the question, "Shall we continue in sin?" Paul's answer is not that we cannot sin if we do continue in sin because sin is non-existent in the eyes of God, but his answer is: "God forbid." Meaning, Paul is saying we cannot continue in sin. He is forbidding us to continue in sin.

In verse 2, Paul says we are "dead to sin"; This is in reference to how a believer crucifies the affections and lusts.

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

Paul says, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Romans 6:6).

Paul says that our old man is crucified that the body of sin might be destroyed and that we should not SERVE sin. So Paul here is referring to how sin exists and that we should not serve sin because the old man is crucified. So again, accepting Christ the proper way leads to us being "dead to sin" in regards to overcoming grievous sin (i.e. to make no provision for the flesh and to fulfill the lusts thereof).

So a person has to walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh (sin) in Christ Jesus in order to not be under the Condemnation.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 24, 2019

JIMINZ said:
These as well.
1 Jn. 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Again, if I am understanding you correctly, you read this the first half of this verse as saying that the person who abides in Christ cannot sin in the eyes of God (even though they may physically sin by the witness of their own eyes and the eyes of other people). If this is so, you must interpret the latter half of this verse as referring to the unbeliever who sins physically while not abiding in Christ and hence, why they do not know Him.

But this interpretation is wrong. For no doubt you left out verse 7 for a reason.

So we have to OBEY as a part of Christ being our author of eternal salvation.

You said:
1Jn 3:8 ,9

8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So if my understanding is correct on your interpretation of this part of Scripture, you are saying that verse 8 is in reference to the unbeliever in the fact that they commit sin in God’s eyes when they physically sin,, and verse 9 is in reference to the believer who cannot sin in the eyes of God even though they physically sin (based on the witness of their own eyes and the eyes of others). If this is how you interpret such a passage, then this would be incorrect.

So if one hates his brother (Which is a specific wrong action and not a general reference to sin in regards to the unbeliever), they are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Murderers do not have eternal life abiding in them. But if we are to take your belief to the extreme in the fact that God does not see any kind of sin done by the believer, this means that a believer can be a murderer and in God’s eyes, He will not see it (even though he can witness that he is a murderer, and others can witness that he is a murderer). However, John makes no mention of such a thing. He simply says, no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Period.

“For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.” (James 1:20).

You said:
Now lookie here what I found for you, why it's the verse where John has already Determined for us what SIN is.....Are you ready??

1 Jn. 3:4

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

*Sigh* You are not telling me anything new by your quoting of 1 John 3:4. I already told you I was aware of what sin was according to the Bible and I already had this verse in mind when you asked me the question: “What is sin?” I knew about this verse for a very, very long time. I did not answer because you did not provide 10 verses to prove a “Sin and Still Be Saved” type belief. The problem is that you are not believing 1 John 3:4. You believe sin is transgression of the Law, but it only applies to the unbeliever, and not the believer. But 1 John 3:4 is written to all people because it says WHOEVER commits sin transgresses the Law. Meaning, ANYBODY who sins breaks God’s laws.

You said:
Now, let me show you something which I am sure, from the way you have Titled this Thread, you have never seen before.

Rom 8:3,4

3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

First, I am aware of the unbiblical belief that says that “when a believer sins: God does not see their sin because Jesus paid for all their sin: Past, present, and future” (if that is what you truly believe). Second, I am also very familiar with what Romans 8:3-4 says, as well. So you are not telling me anything new here.

If I am to understand you correctly based on what you said so far, you interpret this passage as saying in verse 3: The Son condemned sin in His body, and therefore, we can no longer be condemned for any future sin that we commit. If am understanding you correctly: You see verse 4 as saying: The believer’s righteousness of the Law is fulfilled (i.e. fulfilled by your belief in Jesus alone for your salvation) who walk not after the flesh (doing good works). If this how you view this portion of Scripture, it would be incorrect.

In Romans 8:4: The words “the flesh” is in reference to the “works of the flesh” (grievous sin) according to the Bible.

Verse 8 and verse 10 tells us that love (i.e. to love one’s neighbor) is the fulfilling of the law. This is the “fulfilling of the righteousness of the Law” (or the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law) that is mentioned in Romans 8:4.

For obviously if we walk after the Spirit as per Romans 8:4, we are going to have the fruits of the Spirit, such as love (Which would include loving our neighbor).

You said:
Rom. 7:4

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

In Romans 7:4, the words, “the Law” is in reference to the whole of the Old Law (as a contract, i.e. the 613 laws from the Law of Moses given to Israel). It is not in reference to all law in general such as the commands that come from Jesus Christ and His followers. We are dead to the Old Law by the body of Christ. It also says that we should bring forth fruit unto God. So this is not a “sin and still be saved” type belief going on here.

What you fail to understand is that we are to SERVE IN NEWNESS of SPIRIT, and NOT IN THE OLDNESS of the LETTER (i.e. the Old Testament Law of Moses, or the Torah).

“But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.” (Romans 7:6).

You said:
Rom. 8:11

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Romans 8:11 is merely talking about the resurrection of our bodies by the power of the resurrection of Jesus Christ if we dwell in Him. It says nothing about how a believer can physically abide in grievous sin with them also being saved.

You said:
Rom. 6:7

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

When you read verse 7, you also have to read verse 6 that says:

6 “ Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
(Romans 6:6-7).

Verse 6 says that henceforth, we should NOT SERVE SIN.

It says “should,” suggesting a possibility here.

We SHOULD not serve sin.

The old man is crucified in the fact that we do not live physically committing sin like we used to do.

“Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:” (Ephesians 2:2).

You said:
Did you get that,

#1 Jesus Destroyed SIN in the Flesh,

Universalists can make the same claim, but it simply would not be true.

Jesus merely paid the price for mankind’s sins so as to offer him the free gift (Which is Himself) via by the vehicle of faith. A true faith is always shown true by one’s works (James 2:18). These kinds of works would include no justification of sin or evil. For Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord; And Jesu told those believers who did wonderful works to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity or sin (See: Matthew 7:23). Jesus did not say in Matthew 7:23, “Depart from me, ye that did not trust in my finished work alone.”

You said:
#2 we no longer walk in the Flesh but in the Spirit, if it be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you,

Walking after the Spirit includes the fruits of the Spirit (Compare Galatians 5:16 with Galatians 5:22-23).

You said:
#3 We are Dead to the Law

We are dead to the Old Law and not all forms of God’s Laws. Romans 7:4 needs to be read in context with Romans 7:6 that says we are to SERVE in newness of Spirit and NOT in the Oldness of the Letter (i.e. the Torah).

You said:
So what we see from Scripture is.

1) Sin is the transgression of the law.

2) Jesus came to destroy Sin, as well as Sin in the Flesh.

3) The Righteousness of Law is Fulfilled in us.

4) We (Believers) are DEAD to the FLESH.

5) We (Believers) are ALIVE (In) The Holy Spirit.

6) We (Believers) are Dead to Sin.

7) We (Believers) are Dead to the Law

8) We (Believers) Cannot commit Sin because, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7

Your false Premise is, Believers can still sin, which has just been refuted so.

This is a false conclusion.

#1. Yes, while sin is transgression of the Law, not all sin condemns (1 John 5:17).

#2. Jesus did not destroy sin in the sense that believers who just have a belief alone in Jesus are saved if they also sin. 1 John 1:7 says that if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. So there are conditions that need to be met by us in order for the sacrifice of Christ to be applied to our lives.

#3. The righteousness of the Law is fulfilled in us by loving our neighbor (See again: Romans 13:8-10).

#4. I can kind of see how you got the idea of “believers are dead to the flesh” from 1 Peter 4:6. But that is not what it is saying. For the verses prior do not support such an interpretation. First, verse 1 implies that the believer who has suffered in the flesh (no doubt for their faith) has ceased from sin (Note: I am referring to this as “grievous sin” and not faults of character for this point of study). Verse 2 implies that the believer should not live the rest of the time to the lusts of the flesh (sin), but to the will of God here upon this Earth. Verse 3 talks about the lifestyle of sin before a believer accepted Christ. In verse 4: Others will accuse us believers falsely or speak evil us wrongfully because we do not run to the same excess of sin that they do. So clearly 1 Peter 4:6 is not teaching a sin and still be saved doctrine here. 1 Peter is merely saying that they will be judged by men outwardly even though they live according to God in the spirit. This is not a sin and still be saved type belief going on here because Peter says that there are false prophets (2 Peter 2:1) who have eyes full of adultery and who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:14). Obviously if a person believes that God does not see their sin when they sin physically, there is no real need to overcome sin or to treat sin as seriously because it does not condemn them. In fact, I have heard “Sin and Still Be Saved” Proponents say that nobody can overcome grievous sin and they quote Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23 out of context to do so.

#5. Believers who are alive in the Spirit are only those believers who obey. For Acts of the Apostles 5:32 talks about how the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey.

#6. Believers being “dead to sin” means that by Spirit baptism (the regeneration) they now have the power to overcome sin. For they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24).

#7. Believers are dead to the Old Law and not all forms of Law. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. It does not say all forms of Law have been abrogated.

#8. Believers can commit sin. Ananias and Sapphira who were believers in Jesus Christ lied to the Holy Ghost and they were killed instantly. A great fear came upon the church as a result of this. The emotion of fear makes no sense by other believers if they:

Were forever saved and secure in their salvation.
Were never saved to begin with.

Fear only makes sense by other believers in the fact that they can also fall away and be condemned in the afterlife by God for breaking His laws. Only a loss of salvation would truly strike fear in the hearts of believers. Death is not to be feared because to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 24, 2019

A_Thinker said:
It's analogous to saying that you can be "initially" born. What makes any event an "initial" event ... is the fact that there will be additional subsequent events, which is neither the case with physical birth, ... or spiritual rebirth. It's a one-time event, as you have expressed yourself.

But I understand that you don't really want to talk about that ...

Dave L said:
“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (NASB95)

“For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?” 1 John 5:4–5 (NASB95)

Here's how it works. Jesus paid for all of my sins, past, present, and future. And just as in America you cannot be punished twice for the same crime, as a Christian, I cannot be punished for any sin that God punished Jesus for in my place, no matter how serious. But, in view of that, God gave me a brand new nature that loves him and hates sin. So even if free to sin, It repulses me and I love the fullness of the Spirit that comes from holiness more than anything else.

Please provide 10 verses to prove that a believer can sin and still be saved to stay on topic. Thanks.

Ronald · Jul 24, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
IMPORTANT NOTE:

"Please read the thread rules below so as to participate properly in this thread topic."

Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

Popular Christianity teaches that Christians can abide in unconfessed sin and still be saved while committing such sin (on some level) by having a belief alone on Jesus. It is my challenge to those who believe this way to put forth verses and or passages that lead you to believe this kind of belief.

Rules for Participating in the Thread Topic:

Rule #1:

Please no copying of any websites to make your case biblically. Please read the Bible yourself and post your own verses to prove your case.

Rule #2.

Please keep in mind that I am allowed to critique a person's statements on their view of Soteriology, and I will allow some debate, but a person has to first put forth their case with the Bible for why they think they can willfully commit sin and be saved while doing so (before they can offer any kind of debate).

Rule #3.

Please no posting of just one or two verses. Please provide at least 10 or more verses to show that a believer can intentionally set out to sin again with the thinking they are saved while doing so.

Rule #4.

Please provide Scripture references; Both the chapter number, and verse numbers. No mention of just a book of the Bible in general, or a quote of Scripture without any kind of verse number involved. Any post without a verse number will be skipped over based on the assumption that you did not reference Scripture. I will not make time to read the musings of men's opinions to see if you are referring to Scripture or not. I need to see actual verses numbers please.

Rule #5.

Please, do no debate, discuss, or ask questions until you provided at least 10 verses to prove your case biblically that a believer can sin and still be saved.

Thank you.

First, isn't all sin willful? If you didn't willingly sin, then you didn't do it. It is the rebelliousness against God's Law. The Ten Commandments give us an idea of what sin is. But then once you are washed with His blood of ALL YOUR SINS, are you not clean spiritually forever? Sin dwells in the members of our flesh and as Christians we still sin, but it is in our flesh, not spirit AND it is not sin unto death. Death was defeated on the Cross. So we don't keep putting Him up there again on a daily basis Our Temple has been cleansed, otherwise the Holy Spirit would not dwell in it. This most Christians know, that we have this dual nature that battles against each other.
Proof that our spirit is purified forever is the simple fact we can die at any moment. So we would have to pray and ask for forgiveness every hour if sins could still accumulate. When we die, even suddenly, we go to the Lord. And since we are no longer under the Law, which Jesus fulfilled the requirements of, our salvation is secure

Bible Highlighter said:
IMPORTANT NOTE:

"Please read the thread rules below so as to participate properly in this thread topic."

Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

Popular Christianity teaches that Christians can abide in unconfessed sin and still be saved while committing such sin (on some level) by having a belief alone on Jesus. It is my challenge to those who believe this way to put forth verses and or passages that lead you to believe this kind of belief.

Rules for Participating in the Thread Topic:

Rule #1:

Please no copying of any websites to make your case biblically. Please read the Bible yourself and post your own verses to prove your case.

Rule #2.

Please keep in mind that I am allowed to critique a person's statements on their view of Soteriology, and I will allow some debate, but a person has to first put forth their case with the Bible for why they think they can willfully commit sin and be saved while doing so (before they can offer any kind of debate).

Rule #3.

Please no posting of just one or two verses. Please provide at least 10 or more verses to show that a believer can intentionally set out to sin again with the thinking they are saved while doing so.

Rule #4.

Please provide Scripture references; Both the chapter number, and verse numbers. No mention of just a book of the Bible in general, or a quote of Scripture without any kind of verse number involved. Any post without a verse number will be skipped over based on the assumption that you did not reference Scripture. I will not make time to read the musings of men's opinions to see if you are referring to Scripture or not. I need to see actual verses numbers please.

Rule #5.

Please, do no debate, discuss, or ask questions until you provided at least 10 verses to prove your case biblically that a believer can sin and still be saved.

Thank you.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 24, 2019

Ronald said:
First, isn't all sin willful? If you didn't willingly sin, then you didn't do it. It is the rebelliousness against God's Law. The Ten Commandments give us an idea of what sin is. But then once you are washed with His blood of ALL YOUR SINS, are you not clean spiritually forever? Sin dwells in the members of our flesh and as Christians we still sin, but it is in our flesh, not spirit AND it is not sin unto death. Death was defeated on the Cross. So we don't keep putting Him up there again on a daily basis Our Temple has been cleansed, otherwise the Holy Spirit would not dwell in it. This most Christians know, that we have this dual nature that battles against each other.
Proof that our spirit is purified forever is the simple fact we can die at any moment. So we would have to pray and ask for forgiveness every hour if sins could still accumulate. When we die, even suddenly, we go to the Lord. And since we are no longer under the Law, which Jesus fulfilled the requirements of, our salvation is secure

When I refer to "willful sin" I am referring to the idea of a person who seeks to justify sin intentionally (willfully) in the fact that they can sin and still be saved. For example: If a person did not plan on sinning that day, they did not willfully set out to do that sin. It was not intended as a part of their agenda or way of thinking. Such a sin was not done with their full will (Especially if they seek not to sin and battle against it).

While you can get technical and say that all sin is willfully done of our own will, the thought behind the word "willful" is in regards to intentional sinning (Whereby one willfully of their full entire will, they set out to sin).

As for the Ten Commandments: Well, in reality, there are actually 613 laws in the Law of Moses and not just 10. There are other Moral Laws that are just as equally important like other sexual immorality laws (that includes not sleeping with next of kin, beasts, etc.). Furthermore, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Paul says the Law is lawful if one uses it lawfully (1 Timothy 1:8). Only 9 out of the 10 commandments apply today. For Colossians 2:16 says we are not judge according to Sabbaths. The weekly Saturday Sabbath would be included in that. Meaning, the Saturday Sabbath is no longer a binding command for believers today. For do you really keep the Saturday Sabbath from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown?

As for the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ:

As for implying all future sin is forgiven a believer:

That actually makes no sense when a person reads the Bible.

1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. How can you confess of sin if future sin is forgiven you?

Furthermore, Ananias and Sapphira were condemned for having lied to the Holy Ghost. They were not said to be unbelievers, either. A great fear came upon the church when they heard about their death. No doubt they were afraid because something similar (sin) could happen to them, as well (if they were not careful to guard their souls against grievous sin). For we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). But the "Sin and Still Be Saved" Proponent somehow magically thinks that fear does not mean fear in Philippians 2:12. But if it is not talking about fear, then why all the trembling? Again, it makes no sense.

You said:

"Sin dwells in the members of our flesh and as Christians we still sin, but it is in our flesh, not spirit AND it is not sin unto death." ~ Ronald.

But Paul says,

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."
(2 Corinthians 7:1).

Simply put, your words do not agree with the words of Paul.

As for your reference to the Holy Spirit:

Acts of the Apostles 5:32 says that the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey Him.

As for your thinking that there are too many sins to confess of:

Well, God's thoughts are not your thoughts. First, not all sin condemns (See 1 John 5:17). Second, the Holy Spirit convicts people of sin (John 16:8-9). Three, 1 John 1:9 says we have to confess of sin in order to be forgiven of sin. You either believe that verse or you don't believe it. Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy. Again, do you believe that verse? If so, how?

Bible Highlighter · Jul 24, 2019

Ronald said:
First, isn't all sin willful? If you didn't willingly sin, then you didn't do it. It is the rebelliousness against God's Law. The Ten Commandments give us an idea of what sin is. But then once you are washed with His blood of ALL YOUR SINS, are you not clean spiritually forever? Sin dwells in the members of our flesh and as Christians we still sin, but it is in our flesh, not spirit AND it is not sin unto death. Death was defeated on the Cross. So we don't keep putting Him up there again on a daily basis Our Temple has been cleansed, otherwise the Holy Spirit would not dwell in it. This most Christians know, that we have this dual nature that battles against each other.
Proof that our spirit is purified forever is the simple fact we can die at any moment. So we would have to pray and ask for forgiveness every hour if sins could still accumulate. When we die, even suddenly, we go to the Lord. And since we are no longer under the Law, which Jesus fulfilled the requirements of, our salvation is secure

Anyways, please provide a list of 10 verses you feel defends a sin and still be saved type belief in order to stay on topic please.

Thank you;
And may God's goodness be upon you.

JIMINZ · Jul 24, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Well, before I address the verses you posted, we need to address the problem of your understanding on sin and how you believe God takes care of it on the account of redeeming man. You said in another thread:

"The answer very simply is.
1 Jn. 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

No Disclaimers, no, Interpretations.

There aren't any degrees of sin, all sin requires the same penalty, of DEATH, that is why Jesus had to die on the Cross for your sins.

Any and All Sin separates us from God, Jesus Sacrifice Reconciles us to God."

by: ~ JIMINZ.

Source:
Post #14 - What is sin?

First, you said that there are no degrees of sin; However, the problem is that the apostle John tells us that there is "a sin NOT unto death."

So no. You statement that says that there are no degrees is false and does not align with what the Bible plainly says.

You also said in that other thread:

"When Jesus died on the Cross, He did not only die for our sins, He actually became our sin, He took our sin on to himself, that is why He said."

by: ~ JIMINZ.

Source:
Post #14 - What is sin?

If I am to understand you correctly here based on how you lump all sin together, and how you believe Jesus became our sin, and your statements made in this thread that a believer cannot sin, I am assuming that you are saying that when a Christian physically sins (whereby others can see him physically sin and or they can witness themselves physically sinning) that such sin does not exist in the eyes of God because Jesus paid for those sins, past, present, and future. If I am correct in understanding you here, this means that you are saying that when a believer sins physically, it does not exist on a spiritual level with God or the Lord, and therefore such sin cannot condemn a believer.

Do not assume that I believe as you do. I do not see how the Bible teaches that a believer's future sin is paid for and is non-existent in the eyes of God.

1 John 1:8 says,
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

This verse is a warning for those who think that sin does not exist for them when they do sin. They either think sin is an illusion (like the Christian Scientist), or they think sin is non-existent in the eyes of God because Jesus paid for their future sin (like with the Eternal Security Proponent, or the "Sin and Still Be Saved" Type Believer).

John tells us that sin does actually exist for the believer because he tells them to "sin not" (1 John 2:1). Also, future sin is not paid for (whereby sin is not existent for the believer in God's eyes) because John tells the brethren that if we confess of their sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

Again, sin exists according to Paul. He asks the question, "Shall we continue in sin?" Paul's answer is not that we cannot sin if we do continue in sin because sin is non-existent in the eyes of God, but his answer is: "God forbid." Meaning, Paul is saying we cannot continue in sin. He is forbidding us to continue in sin.

In verse 2, Paul says we are "dead to sin"; This is in reference to how a believer crucifies the affections and lusts.

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

Paul says, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Romans 6:6).

Paul says that our old man is crucified that the body of sin might be destroyed and that we should not SERVE sin. So Paul here is referring to how sin exists and that we should not serve sin because the old man is crucified. So again, accepting Christ the proper way leads to us being "dead to sin" in regards to overcoming grievous sin (i.e. to make no provision for the flesh and to fulfill the lusts thereof).

So a person has to walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh (sin) in Christ Jesus in order to not be under the Condemnation.

I could say a lot, but I won't, I will say this though.

You are much closer to what I have said than your would ever believe, you would be amazed at just how much you said in rebuttal that I agree with, it's just that you are still looking through a darkened glass and are not able to see clearly enough to fully Understand (Comprehend) (Perceive) just what it is I have actually said, but that's ok, your close enough, and I'm sure in the future as you grow in the Spirit, God will open more and more to you.

This verse is the summation of everything I have said, we could go back and forth but it wouldn't resolve anything, your not ready to see it yet, but when you are, you will remember what I have said here.

I walk in the Spirit, in Newness of Life.

Rom. 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

May God Bless your journey, as you seek him.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 24, 2019

JIMINZ said:
I could say a lot, but I won't, I will say this though.

You are much closer to what I have said than your would ever believe, you would be amazed at just how much you said in rebuttal that I agree with, it's just that you are still looking through a darkened glass and are not able to see clearly enough to fully Understand (Comprehend) (Perceive) just what it is I have actually said, but that's ok, your close enough, and I'm sure in the future as you grow in the Spirit, God will open more and more to you.

This verse is the summation of everything I have said, we could go back and forth but it wouldn't resolve anything, your not ready to see it yet, but when you are, you will remember what I have said here.

I walk in the Spirit, in Newness of Life.

Rom. 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

May God Bless your journey, as you seek him.

If I understood you correctly, you gave me the impression that you believe that future sin is paid for. I don't believe that. I am strongly opposed to that kind of belief and will fight against it until my last dying breath because I see it as a license for immorality. I believe the Bible clearly teaches that just one unconfessed grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) means spiritual death for a believer unless they confess and or forsake such a sin. So I do not believe we are close at all in our view of Soteriology, friend.

In any event, may God's good ways be upon you (even if we may disagree strongly over what the Bible says); In the meantime, all do is hope and pray that you may see where I am coming from some day.

Ronald · Jul 24, 2019

“For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.” Rom. 4:14

“ For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.” Rom. 4:15

“For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under the law but under grace.” Rom. 6:14

Once you are washed with His blood of ALL YOUR SINS, we are clean “spiritually” forever. Sin dwells in the members of our flesh, not spirit. Actually physically we will die, but spiritually you will not. Spiritual death was defeated on the Cross. So we don't keep putting Him up there again on a daily basis. Our Temple has been cleansed, otherwise the Holy Spirit would not dwell in it. Remember in the Old Testament, a priest who had sin could not enter into the Most Holy Place, he would die. God does not dwell in the presence of sin, so your Temple is clean – it is in your flesh where sin dwells.

“… Apart from the law, sin is dead.” Rom. 7:8 Or in other words, we died to sin. We died with Christ, who became sin. From that moment the their earthly Temple was obsolete, but now we have a Temple within us.

Sin has been defeated, has no power over us, we are no longer slaves to it. In Romans 7:18-20, Paul approached this problem of the sinful nature within our flesh, he reasoned that if he does something that He does not want to do, then it is not him that is doing it, but sin that dwells in him. This is a very confusing doctrine for many.

“There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” For the Law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.” Rom. 8:1, 2

So don’t look for any condemnation, don’t think of sin as if it has dominion over you!

“You know that He appeared in order to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin.” 1John 3:5

We are in Him! So is there any sin in the Body of Christ? No, the Bible says there isn’t!

“Those who live according to this sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires, but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.” Rom. 8:5

This is the contrast between unbelievers and believers.

But we are cautioned: “Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.” Rom. 6:12

Yes, we must die to our old selves, bad habits. It’s a battle between to natures, but the sinful nature is NOT IN CONTROL.

“No one who abides in Him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen Him or known Him. 1 John 3:6

So if you are sinning, there has been no change in you, not born again, no confirmation, no godly sorrow, no repentance; you don’t know Him.

“So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” Rom. 8:12-14

Now the Spirit is helping you mortify those old deeds you were so fund of – we couldn’t do it without Him.

“Put to death whatever belongs to your earthly nature …” Col. 3:5

We have this dual nature that battles against each other.

Proof that our spirit is purified forever is the simple fact we can die at any moment. So we would have to pray and ask for forgiveness of sins every hour . When we die, even suddenly, we go to the Lord.

“The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Cor. 15:56, 57

We have victory over sin, it has been defeated, not by works of the flesh, but by faith.

S A L V A T I O N I S S E C U R E, I T I S P R O M I S E D!

“I give them eternal life and they will never perish and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” John 10:28

John 3:16 says if you believe you have eternal life. Not maybe, if you are good or if you don’t sin, you have it.

“In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.” Ephesians 1:11

“In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory.” Eph. 1:13, 14

JIMINZ · Jul 24, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, if I am understanding you correctly, you read this the first half of this verse as saying that the person who abides in Christ cannot sin in the eyes of God (even though they may physically sin by the witness of their own eyes and the eyes of other people). If this is so, you must interpret the latter half of this verse as referring to the unbeliever who sins physically while not abiding in Christ and hence, why they do not know Him.

But this interpretation is wrong. For no doubt you left out verse 7 for a reason.

So we have to OBEY as a part of Christ being our author of eternal salvation.

So if my understanding is correct on your interpretation of this part of Scripture, you are saying that verse 8 is in reference to the unbeliever in the fact that they commit sin in God’s eyes when they physically sin,, and verse 9 is in reference to the believer who cannot sin in the eyes of God even though they physically sin (based on the witness of their own eyes and the eyes of others). If this is how you interpret such a passage, then this would be incorrect.

So if one hates his brother (Which is a specific wrong action and not a general reference to sin in regards to the unbeliever), they are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Murderers do not have eternal life abiding in them. But if we are to take your belief to the extreme in the fact that God does not see any kind of sin done by the believer, this means that a believer can be a murderer and in God’s eyes, He will not see it (even though he can witness that he is a murderer, and others can witness that he is a murderer). However, John makes no mention of such a thing. He simply says, no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Period.

“For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.” (James 1:20).

*Sigh* You are not telling me anything new by your quoting of 1 John 3:4. I already told you I was aware of what sin was according to the Bible and I already had this verse in mind when you asked me the question: “What is sin?” I knew about this verse for a very, very long time. I did not answer because you did not provide 10 verses to prove a “Sin and Still Be Saved” type belief. The problem is that you are not believing 1 John 3:4. You believe sin is transgression of the Law, but it only applies to the unbeliever, and not the believer. But 1 John 3:4 is written to all people because it says WHOEVER commits sin transgresses the Law. Meaning, ANYBODY who sins breaks God’s laws.

First, I am aware of the unbiblical belief that says that “when a believer sins: God does not see their sin because Jesus paid for all their sin: Past, present, and future” (if that is what you truly believe). Second, I am also very familiar with what Romans 8:3-4 says, as well. So you are not telling me anything new here.

If I am to understand you correctly based on what you said so far, you interpret this passage as saying in verse 3: The Son condemned sin in His body, and therefore, we can no longer be condemned for any future sin that we commit. If am understanding you correctly: You see verse 4 as saying: The believer’s righteousness of the Law is fulfilled (i.e. fulfilled by your belief in Jesus alone for your salvation) who walk not after the flesh (doing good works). If this how you view this portion of Scripture, it would be incorrect.

In Romans 8:4: The words “the flesh” is in reference to the “works of the flesh” (grievous sin) according to the Bible.

Verse 8 and verse 10 tells us that love (i.e. to love one’s neighbor) is the fulfilling of the law. This is the “fulfilling of the righteousness of the Law” (or the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law) that is mentioned in Romans 8:4.

For obviously if we walk after the Spirit as per Romans 8:4, we are going to have the fruits of the Spirit, such as love (Which would include loving our neighbor).

In Romans 7:4, the words, “the Law” is in reference to the whole of the Old Law (as a contract, i.e. the 613 laws from the Law of Moses given to Israel). It is not in reference to all law in general such as the commands that come from Jesus Christ and His followers. We are dead to the Old Law by the body of Christ. It also says that we should bring forth fruit unto God. So this is not a “sin and still be saved” type belief going on here.

What you fail to understand is that we are to SERVE IN NEWNESS of SPIRIT, and NOT IN THE OLDNESS of the LETTER (i.e. the Old Testament Law of Moses, or the Torah).

“But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.” (Romans 7:6).

Romans 8:11 is merely talking about the resurrection of our bodies by the power of the resurrection of Jesus Christ if we dwell in Him. It says nothing about how a believer can physically abide in grievous sin with them also being saved.

When you read verse 7, you also have to read verse 6 that says:

6 “ Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
(Romans 6:6-7).

Verse 6 says that henceforth, we should NOT SERVE SIN.

It says “should,” suggesting a possibility here.

We SHOULD not serve sin.

The old man is crucified in the fact that we do not live physically committing sin like we used to do.

“Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:” (Ephesians 2:2).

Universalists can make the same claim, but it simply would not be true.

Jesus merely paid the price for mankind’s sins so as to offer him the free gift (Which is Himself) via by the vehicle of faith. A true faith is always shown true by one’s works (James 2:18). These kinds of works would include no justification of sin or evil. For Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord; And Jesu told those believers who did wonderful works to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity or sin (See: Matthew 7:23). Jesus did not say in Matthew 7:23, “Depart from me, ye that did not trust in my finished work alone.”

Walking after the Spirit includes the fruits of the Spirit (Compare Galatians 5:16 with Galatians 5:22-23).

We are dead to the Old Law and not all forms of God’s Laws. Romans 7:4 needs to be read in context with Romans 7:6 that says we are to SERVE in newness of Spirit and NOT in the Oldness of the Letter (i.e. the Torah).

This is a false conclusion.

#1. Yes, while sin is transgression of the Law, not all sin condemns (1 John 5:17).

#2. Jesus did not destroy sin in the sense that believers who just have a belief alone in Jesus are saved if they also sin. 1 John 1:7 says that if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. So there are conditions that need to be met by us in order for the sacrifice of Christ to be applied to our lives.

#3. The righteousness of the Law is fulfilled in us by loving our neighbor (See again: Romans 13:8-10).

#4. I can kind of see how you got the idea of “believers are dead to the flesh” from 1 Peter 4:6. But that is not what it is saying. For the verses prior do not support such an interpretation. First, verse 1 implies that the believer who has suffered in the flesh (no doubt for their faith) has ceased from sin (Note: I am referring to this as “grievous sin” and not faults of character for this point of study). Verse 2 implies that the believer should not live the rest of the time to the lusts of the flesh (sin), but to the will of God here upon this Earth. Verse 3 talks about the lifestyle of sin before a believer accepted Christ. In verse 4: Others will accuse us believers falsely or speak evil us wrongfully because we do not run to the same excess of sin that they do. So clearly 1 Peter 4:6 is not teaching a sin and still be saved doctrine here. 1 Peter is merely saying that they will be judged by men outwardly even though they live according to God in the spirit. This is not a sin and still be saved type belief going on here because Peter says that there are false prophets (2 Peter 2:1) who have eyes full of adultery and who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:14). Obviously if a person believes that God does not see their sin when they sin physically, there is no real need to overcome sin or to treat sin as seriously because it does not condemn them. In fact, I have heard “Sin and Still Be Saved” Proponents say that nobody can overcome grievous sin and they quote Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23 out of context to do so.

#5. Believers who are alive in the Spirit are only those believers who obey. For Acts of the Apostles 5:32 talks about how the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey.

#6. Believers being “dead to sin” means that by Spirit baptism (the regeneration) they now have the power to overcome sin. For they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24).

#7. Believers are dead to the Old Law and not all forms of Law. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. It does not say all forms of Law have been abrogated.

#8. Believers can commit sin. Ananias and Sapphira who were believers in Jesus Christ lied to the Holy Ghost and they were killed instantly. A great fear came upon the church as a result of this. The emotion of fear makes no sense by other believers if they:

Were forever saved and secure in their salvation.

Were never saved to begin with.

Fear only makes sense by other believers in the fact that they can also fall away and be condemned in the afterlife by God for breaking His laws. Only a loss of salvation would truly strike fear in the hearts of believers. Death is not to be feared because to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Thank you for the in depth rebuttal, although I disagree with your conclusions, I do appreciate the time it took to express them so succinctly.

Again we are a lot closer in belief than you could ever imagine, you just have a few sticking points, remember it says.

Mat. 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Mat. 7:7
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

JIMINZ · Jul 24, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
If I understood you correctly, you gave me the impression that you believe that future sin is paid for.

That is exactly why I said we are a lot closer than you believe.

You have assumed something I never said because you didn't fully understand what it was I was saying.

Maybe this will help decipher the other verses I posted, it might put them into a different perspective for you.

Rom. 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Notice, this verse is only concerned with PAST SINS, it never mentions Present, or Future Sins.

My stance is therefore rooted in the fact.
Past sins have been Forgiven, I am Reconciled with God.
Jesus came for my Sin, and Destroyed Sin in the Flesh.
We are Dead to the Flesh, (not to the body that is something else)
We are Dead to the Law.
We are Dead to Sin.

Therefore being Dead to all of the things in which we were held, and the provisions within Jesus Sacrifice there are no Present or Future Sins, for God, has not provided a Sacrifice for them.

It a matter of knowing where we stand IN JESUS CHRIST.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for

Bible Highlighter · Jul 24, 2019

Ronald said:
“For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.” Rom. 4:14

You fail to understand WHO are the adherents of the Law are.
Are the adherents of the Law followers of Jesus who said, "if you love me, keep my commandments"?
Or are the adherents of the Law the Jew (who rejected their Messiah) and who kept the Old Law?
Romans 3:1 says, what advantage has the Jew? What profit is there in circumcision?

Is circumcision something that is a command given to us by Jesus and His followers?

Surely not.
Then why would Paul mention this?

Well, because Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); For a certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

Another thing you fail to understand is that Paul said if any man does not agree with the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

James says God resists the proud and He gives grace to the humble (James 4:6). Obviously a person who thinks they can sin and still be saved is not humble because it is a means of turning God's grace into a license for immorality that Jude 1:4 warns us against. For wouldn't God have to agree with sin in order to agree with a kind of plan of salvation that says that a believer can sin on some level and still be saved? But can God agree with sin? Surely not. God is holy, and He cannot agree with our thinking that we can sin and still be saved. There are always consequences to sin. If God took away our sin, it would lead people to minimize sin and to live however they like.

In short, Paul was speaking against Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace, and he was preaching that we first need to get initially saved by having faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior (without works) (Justification). Paul was not in denial that we need works of faith afterwards as a part of our Sanctification within salvation process. Paul says a person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that God has chosen us to salvation by two things:

#1. Belief of the Truth (Jesus is the Truth - John 14:6).
#2. Sanctification of the Spirit (i.e. Holy Living - 1 Thessalonians 4:3).

For Romans 8:13 says if one lives after the flesh (sin), they will die (die spiritually), but if one mortifies (puts to death) the deeds of the body (sin) via by the help of the Holy Spirit, they shall live (live eternally).

Also, grace reigns (rules) through righteousness (righteous living) (Romans 5:21).

God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See: Titus 2:11-12). God's grace does not teach us that we can sin and still be saved on any level (Which is implied when a person says that future sin is forgiven them and they do not need to worry about sin because they are secure in their salvation).

For the reason Christ died for us was for the purpose of sanctifying and cleansing us with the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture) so that He might present to Himself a church that is holy and without blemish (See: Ephesians 5:25-27).

This is what you fail to understand or grasp.

Side Note:

I will try to address the rest of what you wrote at a later time.

Blessings and peace be unto you in the Lord (even if we disagree strongly over the Bible).

Ronald · Jul 24, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
You fail to understand WHO are the adherents of the Law are.
Are the adherents of the Law followers of Jesus who said, "if you love me, keep my commandments"?
Or are the adherents of the Law the Jew (who rejected their Messiah) and who kept the Old Law?
Romans 3:1 says, what advantage has the Jew? What profit is there in circumcision?

Is circumcision something that is a command given to us by Jesus and His followers?

Surely not.
Then why would Paul mention this?

Well, because Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); For a certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

Another thing you fail to understand is that Paul said if any man does not agree with the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

James says God resists the proud and He gives grace to the humble (James 4:6). Obviously a person who thinks they can sin and still be saved is not humble because it is a means of turning God's grace into a license for immorality that Jude 1:4 warns us against. For wouldn't God have to agree with sin in order to agree with a kind of plan of salvation that says that a believer can sin on some level and still be saved? But can God agree with sin? Surely not. God is holy, and He cannot agree with our thinking that we can sin and still be saved. There are always consequences to sin. If God took away our sin, it would lead people to minimize sin and to live however they like.

In short, Paul was speaking against Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace, and he was preaching that we first need to get initially saved by having faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior (without works) (Justification). Paul was not in denial that we need works of faith afterwards as a part of our Sanctification within salvation process. Paul says a person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that God has chosen us to salvation by two things:

#1. Belief of the Truth (Jesus is the Truth - John 14:6).
#2. Sanctification of the Spirit (i.e. Holy Living - 1 Thessalonians 4:3).

For Romans 8:13 says if one lives after the flesh (sin), they will die (die spiritually), but if one mortifies (puts to death) the deeds of the body (sin) via by the help of the Holy Spirit, they shall live (live eternally).

Also, grace reigns (rules) through righteousness (righteous living) (Romans 5:21).

God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See: Titus 2:11-12). God's grace does not teach us that we can sin and still be saved on any level (Which is implied when a person says that future sin is forgiven them and they do not need to worry about sin because they are secure in their salvation).

For the reason Christ died for us was for the purpose of sanctifying and cleansing us with the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture) so that He might present to Himself a church that is holy and without blemish (See: Ephesians 5:25-27).

This is what you fail to understand or grasp.

Side Note:

I will try to address the rest of what you wrote at a later time.

Blessings and peace be unto you in the Lord (even if we disagree strongly over the Bible).

Y O U F A I L !
You are stuck in a legalistic theology and very adamant about it.
"For it is by Grace you have been saved, through faith AND THIS NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is a GIFT of GOD and NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast." So I. 2:8, 9
As for the Judiasers, you are just a modern version. Paul rebuked them just as many legalistic people need to be rebuked today.
This thread will go on and on with no resolve, a wall that cant seem to be breached. Not interested in this futility
Farewell.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 24, 2019

Ronald said:
Y O U F A I L !
You are stuck in a legalistic theology and very adamant about it.
"For it is by Grace you have been saved, through faith AND THIS NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is a GIFT of GOD and NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast." So I. 2:8, 9
As for the Judiasers, you are just a modern version. Paul rebuked them just as many legalistic people need to be rebuked today.
This thread will go on and on with no resolve, a wall that cant seem to be breached. Not interested in this futility
Farewell.

Well, nationally speaking: The Jews never believed in Jesus as their Messiah. So they don't qualify in being like me in the sense that I actually do believe we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Of course, I am not going to boast against the original branches because I know the Jews (as a nation) will come to see one day that Jesus is Lord (before he shortly returns).

Anyways, Paul questioning the advantage of the unbelieving Jew, and the value of circumcision (in Romans 3:1) is light years away from what I believe. I am not a Jew who rejected the Messiah, and I do not believe circumcision is a command that is a part of the New Covenant. Circumcision was a part of the Old Covenant, and not the New Covenant. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

As for your reference of Ephesians 2:8-9:

Yes, we are initially saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the gift of God. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son. But how many times are gifts received? Do you keep receiving the same gift over and over and over again? Or do you receive gifts one time? I say this because if a gift is received one time, then that means that Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about a one time event (i.e. Initial Salvation).

Ephesians 2:1 says that Christ has quickened us. How many times do you think a believer is "quickened"? Surely it must be one time, right? So again, Ephesians 2 is talking about a one time event (i.e. Initial Salvation). Paul says to the Ephesians that Christ may dwell in their hearts by faith (Ephesians 3:17). How many times does that happen for a believer? How many times can Christ be invited to dwell in our hearts generally? Usually this is one time in most cases. So again, the context of Ephesians 2:8-9 is "Initial Salvation."

Ephesians 2:9 is also talking about "Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism" (Without God's grace through faith in Jesus) because it is referring to the kind of work that a person would boast in themselves in doing. Is that what you think I believe? That I boast in my own good works and seek the attention of men?

Far from it.

I believe God does the good work through the believer (Philippians 2:12) (John 15:5). This means that I believe in boasting in God for any good work He does through my life. For why else do you think the 24 elders cast down their crowns before Jesus? It's because it was the Lord who ultimately did the good work through them (under their cooperation and surrender to the Lord of course).

Ephesians 2:10 switches gears and talks about a different kind of work (i.e. God directed works done through the believer or Sanctification). For verse 10 mentions that these are the kind of works that a believer is created to do in Christ Jesus since the foundation of the world. These are the kind of works that follow God's saving grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

In other words, Paul is saying, "Do not put the cart before the horse" (i.e. Do not put works before God's grace, otherwise a person's foundation will be works and not God's grace - which is wrong). No man can lay any other foundation but Jesus Christ. But the building materials of that building for that foundation are good works and not evil and sin.

For unless a believer is gagged and tied to a chair the rest of their life, they are going to do some kind of works. These works will either be evil works, or they will be good works. The choice is up to the believer to decide what kind of works he is going to do in this life. He can believe he is saved while doing good works, or he will believe he is saved while doing evil works. There is no other option. No man can serve two masters, for he will hate the one and love the other. Jesus said to the believer who did wonderful works to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity (or sin) (See: Matthew 7:23). So a sin and still be saved type belief is not the kind of faith that Jesus will accept come Judgment Day, my friend. For a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, and an evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 24, 2019

Ronald said:
“ For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.” Rom. 4:15

Right, the Law that is no more is the 613 laws of the "Law of Moses" given to Israel. We are told to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah) (See: Romans 7:6). This is why Paul said that we can fulfill the Law now under the New Covenant by loving our neighbor (See: Romans 13:8-10). New Covenant, and new rules (or new laws). For Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. If the Law has changed, that means the Old Law (as a whole or as a contract) is no more (technically speaking).

Romans 3:1 mentions "circumcision."
Was circumcision a part of the Old Law of the Old Testament, or was circumcision a part of the New Laws from Jesus and His followers of the New Testament? Surely, circumcision is an Old Testament (Old Covenant) Law and that is the context of the kind of Law that Paul is talking about here in Romans 4:15. In fact, Paul uses "circumcision" as an example in Romans 4:9-12. He says Abraham believed GOD first, and then he was circumcised. Yet, the Jews of Jesus day got the order all wrong. They were trying to deceive Christians into thinking they need to be circumcised first (When it did not even work that way even in the Old Covenant). But circumcision is no longer a binding command in the New Covenant because it was a part of the Old Law that is no more.

At the Jerusalem Council, this heresy of "Circumcision Salvation" is clearly defined for us (of which Paul also argued against):

Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

Paul said, if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2). Then he mentions being justified by the Law in verse 4 (Galatians 5:4) and their falling from grace. So "Circumcision Salvationism" is the context of many of his references to the condemnation to the Law and or works. But Paul never says that we can disobey the commands of Jesus and the commands that come from His followers in regards to eternal life.

Jesus agrees with the lawyer on the truth that we must love God and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life (See: Luke 10:25-28). Jesus says to the rich young ruler, if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17-19). Either Jesus was exaggerating or not telling us plainly the whole truth, or his words do not apply today. But Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Bible Highlighter · Jul 24, 2019

JIMINZ said:
That is exactly why I said we are a lot closer than you believe.

You have assumed something I never said because you didn't fully understand what it was I was saying.

Maybe this will help decipher the other verses I posted, it might put them into a different perspective for you.

Rom. 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Notice, this verse is only concerned with PAST SINS, it never mentions Present, or Future Sins.

My stance is therefore rooted in the fact.
Past sins have been Forgiven, I am Reconciled with God.
Jesus came for my Sin, and Destroyed Sin in the Flesh.
We are Dead to the Flesh, (not to the body that is something else)
We are Dead to the Law.
We are Dead to Sin.

Therefore being Dead to all of the things in which we were held, and the provisions within Jesus Sacrifice there are no Present or Future Sins, for God, has not provided a Sacrifice for them.

It a matter of knowing where we stand IN JESUS CHRIST.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for

But what happens when a believer does sin and they refuse to confess of it? Are they still forgiven?

Was king David forgiven while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

Bible Highlighter · Jul 24, 2019

JIMINZ said:
That is exactly why I said we are a lot closer than you believe.

You have assumed something I never said because you didn't fully understand what it was I was saying.

Maybe this will help decipher the other verses I posted, it might put them into a different perspective for you.

Rom. 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

When we read Romans 3:25, we also have to read this in balance with 1 John 1:7 that says if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. We have to read this in balance with Hebrews 5:9 that essentially says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. So it's a belief and works of faith. This makes sense because James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18), and a faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

You said:
Notice, this verse is only concerned with PAST SINS, it never mentions Present, or Future Sins.

My stance is therefore rooted in the fact.
Past sins have been Forgiven, I am Reconciled with God.
Jesus came for my Sin, and Destroyed Sin in the Flesh.
We are Dead to the Flesh, (not to the body that is something else)
We are Dead to the Law.
We are Dead to Sin.

Therefore being Dead to all of the things in which we were held, and the provisions within Jesus Sacrifice there are no Present or Future Sins, for God, has not provided a Sacrifice for them.

It a matter of knowing where we stand IN JESUS CHRIST.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for

When you read Galatians 2:20, you have to read that in balance of other verses that say things like the following:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

So things are not automatic whereby we are rag dolls being moved about to obey GOD perfectly. It takes time for many believers to put away grievous sin in their lives (via the help of the Lord, prayer, and applying His Word to our lives).

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Bible Highlighter · Jul 24, 2019

Ronald said:
“For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under the law but under grace.” Rom. 6:14

As for sin not having dominion over us as per Romans 6:14: This is in reference to overcoming grievous sin by the Spirit. For we are buried in the likeness of Christ's death in baptism of the Holy Spirit (i.e. not water baptism) as a part of the spiritual regeneration. This regeneration (spirit baptism) is the receiving of a new heart, with new desires by the Holy Ghost.

3 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin."
(Romans 6:3-7).

"...he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" (Titus 3:5).

This is the first step in how sin cannot have dominion over us (i.e. to overcome grievous sin). The second step is to walk after the Spirit (walking in the likeness of Christ's new resurrected life).

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

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Psalm 144:1

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Exhortations

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Exhortations

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Exhortations

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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