Church discipline against me. is this a Right? Letter from church attached.

Alithis · Jul 14, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Someone once said to me that if anyone presumes to tell you how to run your family they are operating out of a cult spirit...

Your first sentence is somewhat telling...

"My wife has gone to the pastors at my church and told them I do not work....

This would seem to indicate issues in the marriage that if addressed effectively would render deeper issues resolved and likely the one in focus would disappear.

hi Carl
Yes i agree.. The very fact this woman want above her husbsnds headship is , few realize, as much an unfaithfulness to her husband as if she slept with another man.

Pedra · Jul 14, 2019

Seems sad that you wife to felt so alone in this situation that she went to the church Pastor & elders for help. Their letter aside...if we look to the Bible for guidance, male and female were created with specific roles and perhaps it is time for you to take more responsibility as the head of the household, and find a better--full-job to provide and support your wife & family. Trust me, you will feel better about yourself, your family and your situation if you make some improvements.

Spiccoli · Jul 14, 2019

Deleted

Foxfyre · Jul 14, 2019

Spiccoli said:
My wife has gone to the pastors at my church and told them I do not work. I do work and have a job, however I just do not make as much money as my wife, actually I work constantly around the house etc. My family has plenty money to make payments house, food, everything. The church deems that I am in violation of first Timothy 5:8 and is in the process of treating me as a nonbeliever. I have attached a letter below from the church would you please read and give me advice. It seems to me they are mis using scriptures. Your careful consideration would be appreciated. See letter from church below.View attachment 259490 Thank you

I don't approve at all the church's handling of this. Or her going to the church elders without making sincere effort to work it out with you. But setting that aside. . .

You do not have a full time job? Is this by agreement between you and your wife? Or a situation that has just developed without agreement between you? Some men and women can handle it okay if the wife makes more money than the husband, but in truth, such people are rare. And there are always cases in which a husband is disabled and the wife has to take over.

But if both are able bodied and capable of working, whether or not you initially thought the wife being the bread winner would be okay, few men are comfortable with that for long. And few women will respect a man and not resent him if he does not pull his fair share of supporting the family.

Somebody else suggested marital counseling for you and your wife. I strongly concur. And once you resolve the problems between the two of you, then you can decide if that is the church where you should be.

Hazelelponi · Jul 14, 2019

deleted. I see post..

topher694 · Jul 14, 2019

Spiccoli said:
I would like to thank everybody for commenting on my situation. This is the first time that I have posted on a forum and I am overwhelmed by the response that I have received. It is heartfelt and sincere I thank you so much. A lot of questions were asked of me and I will try and answer them to help figure this out. I’m 56 years old I have a daughter who is 12 and I have been married for 23 years. it was a time ago that I made income and my wife didn’t work. We recently moved to Montana and no longer able to do the same work that I did in California. I have a bachelors degree in the liberal studies and I was raised Christian and my family is Christian. I would like to address 1 Timothy 5:8 as it keeps coming up in reference To this. The verse begins “anyone”that would mean any Christian not just husband’s , It also continues to use his and he which in this context are gender-neutral not meaning a male. This verse contextually pertains to the church taking care of widows and children. There are other verses that pertain to a man working but reference to first Timothy 5:8 is incorrect. Just to be clear it has nothing to do with a husband or a role of a husband and a family, it was not the intention of the writer. .....In the letter to me and in counseling they refer to a 40 hour work week as being full time, I was told from the church that “if it’s not 40 hours a week it’s not a job” The 40 hour week is part of the western civilization answer to factories who wanted their employers to work 14 to 16 hours a day, in 1936 the fair labor board initiated the eight hour workday. One question was ask to me why don’t you work 40 hours? I would answer, why don’t I work 60 hours.The point is that 40 hours is not a biblical construct but a western industrial civilization idea.The point should be is my family in need of anything? do they lack food clothing shelter? am I not working, again my family lackes nothing and I work which is what the Bible talks about. It doesn’t say full time of part time. The Bible may indicate roles but it is not mandated. It was asked Of me does my wife like working? Yes my wife my wife loves her job she’s a teacher and have summers off she pulls in a great income because she’s been working over 20 years I have told her many times if she wants to quit working I will support the family however it will change our lifestyle to some degree because at this point I cannot pull in the income required to sustain the life that we have now. It is my idea that a family works together to make it regardless of who does what as long as we honor God. I do not see in the Bible equity or 50-50 in the Bible. In Psalms 31 the woman buys Land and sells it for profit I believe Lydia sold purple or garments the idea of women working is not anti-biblical or the idea of a man being a stay at home dad is not unbiblical. There is a stigma if the dad is a stay at home dad he’s a failure that he is a bum and can’t find a job. However if a woman is a stay at home mom she works hard and there is no stigma. In my case we decided that we wanted one of us to stay home with our daughter and because my wife pulled in more income than me at the time it was mutually decided I would stay home. This has worked very well but for some reason When my wife turned 50 she became anxious about our finances, then went to the church about our agreement. ...It was asked of me what work I do? I work as an educational travel guide I take students to DC and New York on American heritage tours, I also am a substitute teacher and have been for years. I also get my daughter up to go to school we have devotions I take her to school and pick her up or take her to the dentist the orthodontist and any other engagements, I also do chores around the house. When we moved here we bought the cheapest house in the nicest neighborhood and I have been working on that every sense for five years it is amazing looking house now. But none of that counts to the church they don’t see that as providing. I see it as increasing the gross family value our house and family unity. One question was asked, somethings amiss? This is where I agree I just don’t know what happened , I am completely befuddled. We don’t own a TV I don’t play video games I’m not an alcoholic I’m not into inappropriate content I’ve never had an affair I study the Bible daily I just can’t figure it out. I don’t know why my wife is spearheading this drive against me with the church. I believe she is deceived or even maybe premenopausal(can I say that)The church has not reached out to me They have not called me up to meet for a coffee at all, Matt 18:15 “go to your brother”.....they are taking my wife’s word for everything. The church even said they will not stop discipline “until my wife tells them that I am providing properly”. Isn’t this usurping Gods design by putting the woman over the man? It was asked me why don’t you go to another church, we have been going to this church for five years and my wife loves it and my daughter is involved in the youth group so it makes it hard to switch. I went to a different church today by myself and I almost cried thinking I want my family with me it’s just another part of the division this church is causing between myself and my wife. They also instructed her to get her own bank account and keep our finances separate. I can say all of this honestly , i know it sounds like a piece to the puzzle is missing, something I’m not mentioning, I would think the same thing because how could a church be so severe! it is only because I don’t make as much as she does, it has nothing to do with me working because if you knew me that’s the last thing you would ever say about me. There are so many other questions that were asked and so many other comments that were so pertinent to my situation that I can’t get to right now. Thank you and sorry for the delay in responding. In Christ love

Above and beyond on your answers for an internet forum.

I'm gonna spend a bit of time considering all of this, but it is a difficult situation and you have my prayers.

Spiccoli · Jul 14, 2019

Yarddog said:
Why don't you find a full time job?

Thank you for your reply. Think about this. What if I had a part-time job that Fully provided for my family, would I still need a full time job?

Spiccoli · Jul 14, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
Yes but the whole walking in idleness and the Thessalonians verse seems misapplied in this case.

He is working, albeit part-time, and so is his wife - which is not at all unbiblical for a wife to make an income and contribute to the household.

Their family are not a burden to the church body having money for all their needs in plenty. The issue then is marital, and not a matter of being a burden to the church at large.

The marital issue should be presented using different verses, and different treatment altogether. The couple need counseling where the issues they are having can be addressed, both sides being heard, and both sides learning some compromise.

This doesn't appear to be being handled correctly, from what we are seeing here.

Very excellent point and I wholeheartedly agree, it must not be the finance issue it must be something else. Very helpful reply thank you

Yarddog · Jul 14, 2019

Spiccoli said:
Thank you for your reply. Think about this. What if I had a part-time job that Fully provided for my family, would I still need a full time job?

If you had a part time job that fully provided for your family, why does your wife say you don't?

Hazelelponi · Jul 14, 2019

Spiccoli said:
Very excellent point and I wholeheartedly agree, it must not be the finance issue it must be something else. Very helpful reply thank you

I've only read about half of your long post, but it honestly sounds like you and you wife need counseling..

She may be having some hormonal issues coupled with looking toward retirement, and if you all lack a savings atm she may be feeling anxious..

that's all normal for the age, but if she's dragging others into your marriage, then you two need counseling because something is broken in your communication..

Spiccoli · Jul 14, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
deleted. I see post..

Your reply was helpful I just posted a reply that might help. I have told her to quit her job numerous times but she will not. Understandably I will make less for awhile and adjustments in our lifestyle will nave to happen. Thank You

Spiccoli · Jul 14, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
none of us do.. I'm going by the letter alone, and some of what the OP said, namely that their family has no issues with paying their bills.

The letter seems to indicate the churches desire is that he works 40 hours a week instead of part-time, because he's "eating his wife's bread"

what does that mean anyway? And why is this treated like he's a burden to the church when it's his wife that is unhappy with how many hours he's working?

I do believe being a burden to the church is different altogether to a man's wife feeling like he's a burden..

While we would all like more information, what information we have seems odd at best..

Thank you your reply was helpful I am in the same conundrum about the use of scriptures

Spiccoli · Jul 14, 2019

Yarddog said:
If you had a part time job that fully provided for your family, why does your wife say you don't?

I left i’ll post that might clear things up for your questions. I truly appreciate your Concern.

Radagast · Jul 14, 2019

Radagast · Jul 14, 2019

Spiccoli said:
When my wife turned 50 she became anxious about our finances, then went to the church about our agreement.

Spiccoli said:
They also instructed her to get her own bank account and keep our finances separate.

It seems to me that the direction this is heading is a divorce with church approval.

Several people have recommended marriage counselling. That's increasingly sounding like a very good idea.

ViaCrucis · Jul 14, 2019

I'm not going to comment on marital issues, as I think the best answer to that (get counseling) has been given multiple times already. My major issue I see here is the church's handling of this situation, and its abuse of Scripture in order to harm members of the church.

As someone who has a family history of religious and ecclesiastical abuse, this stuff tends to hit home for me a lot. My grandmother attended a toxic and abusive church as a little girl, and the effects of that lasted nearly right up until she passed away. My family was ousted from my childhood church (and the church my mother had been raised in) due to the scheming of evil church leaders and the abusive misapplication of Scripture in order to cause hurt, not healing.

1 Timothy 5:8 says nothing about employment, but of helping others. The implication being people who have the MEANS of aiding others, but REFUSING to do so. This is in contrast to poor widows who need aid, mentioned previously. Those in the community who have the material means to actually help and care for others in the community (including members of their household, not just kin, but all who belonged to their oikos, which would also include slaves and servants).

Widows who have surviving household members are first entrusted to the care of their familiars, if they have no one else, then they can survive on the charity of the community. If someone straight up refuses to help others (you know, like the widows being mentioned) they are disavowing their faith, a faith which calls us to a commitment to one another in love. Such a person is worse than a non-believer because even the unbelieving show practical concern for each other.

-CryptoLutheran

Spiccoli · Jul 14, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
I'm not going to comment on marital issues, as I think the best answer to that (get counseling) has been given multiple times already. My major issue I see here is the church's handling of this situation, and its abuse of Scripture in order to harm members of the church.

As someone who has a family history of religious and ecclesiastical abuse, this stuff tends to hit home for me a lot. My grandmother attended a toxic and abusive church as a little girl, and the effects of that lasted nearly right up until she passed away. My family was ousted from my childhood church (and the church my mother had been raised in) due to the scheming of evil church leaders and the abusive misapplication of Scripture in order to cause hurt, not healing.

1 Timothy 5:8 says nothing about employment, but of helping others. The implication being people who have the MEANS of aiding others, but REFUSING to do so. This is in contrast to poor widows who need aid, mentioned previously. Those in the community who have the material means to actually help and care for others in the community (including members of their household, not just kin, but all who belonged to their oikos, which would also include slaves and servants).

Widows who have surviving household members are first entrusted to the care of their familiars, if they have no one else, then they can survive on the charity of the community. If someone straight up refuses to help others (you know, like the widows being mentioned) they are disavowing their faith, a faith which calls us to a commitment to one another in love. Such a person is worse than a non-believer because even the unbelieving show practical concern for each other.

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you for your reply and insight into 1timothy 5:8

Strong in Him · Jul 15, 2019

aiki said:
Not according to Scripture. It is this "mind your own business" attitude that is greatly helping to create the increasingly "leavened" Church in the West. All believers are "members one of another."

Except in the area of a private marriage relationship.
Whatever domestic arrangements the OP and his wife have, they are between them, unless BOTH are dissatisfied and want Godly advice about the way forward. Even then, the first two courses of action should be praying, and talking it over, together.
That could have happened here; we don't know. All we've been told is the wife went to the elders of the church with a complaint about her husband not doing/earning as much as she does, and they decided to rebuke him. What's next; a church vote on the colour of their wallpaper? Pastoral "concern" because one of the couple has a hobby that is deemed dangerous/expensive? Contacting the bishop about the size/colour of the family car?

aiki said:
Good grief. Read 1 Corinthians 5.

I have.
Sexual immorality, which breaks one of the commandments and affects the whole congregation, is in no way the same as private arrangements between husband and wife about the jobs they have and money they make.

Strong in Him · Jul 15, 2019

I'm going to bow out of this thread now; there's not much more I can say.
Except, maybe, @Spiccoli, if you have concerns about your wife, the fact that she has gone to the church over a private issue and that they are taking her side without having contacted, talked or prayed with you at all - where can you go to talk, and get support/help for you? There have been some good, and sympathetic, answers here, but none of us knows you and your situation.
IS this out of character behaviour for your wife and something the doctor should know about?
Is she being controlled by the church?
Can you find another Pastor/counsellor and talk to them about your concerns and the way this church are behaving? Are there any elders in your current church who are slightly more sympathetic, or who you get on with, who you could approach and tell them what you have told us? Do they know that your current arrangements suited your wife very well until recently?

Anyway, I do pray that you will be able to get help and some answers, soon.

Radagast · Jul 15, 2019

Realistically, it seems to me that there are three or maybe four roads available to the OP:

1. Patch things up with his wife, and with her help, get the church leadership to accept whatever compromise they come up with, so that life continues as before.

2. Patch things up with his wife, and together start attending a different church.

3. Divorce.

4. The OP starts attending another church on his own -- but I think that finishes up as either (2) or (3).

I pray :prayer:

that the OP resolves this in a satisfactory way, but it seems that there are some marital issues underneath all this which will make that tricky.

And I don't think that saying "the church is wrong" is at all helpful (even if that was the case). The OP still has to walk down one of those 4 roads.

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