The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Saint Steven · Jul 3, 2019

FineLinen said:
There is one (1) passage of Canon for “everlasting punishment” (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

That's not entirely true. Even so...
It is more than the ZERO evidence (passage of Canon) you have for "age-during".

Why don't you have any biblical support for your "age-during" claim?

No wonder the building is in ruins, there is no cornerstone.

GTW27 · Jul 3, 2019

Saint Steven said:
That's not entirely true. Even so...
It is more than the ZERO evidence (passage of Canon) you have for "age-during".

Why don't you have any biblical support for your "age-during" claim?

No wonder the building is in ruins, there is no cornerstone.

Then perhaps, it is time(past time) to tear down that building,( brick by brick if needed) in order to build another. This time it can be built upon The Rock.

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

GTW27 said:
Then perhaps, it is time(past time) to tear down that building,( brick by brick if needed) in order to build another. This time it can be built upon The Rock.

This "age-during" definition for "eternal" (G166 aiōnios) is a MAJOR problem for Universalism.

It seems to be based on a handful of obscure translations (Youngs Literal translation, Concordant Literal translation, and Rotherham's translation), in which the translator took it upon themselves to insert "age-during" based on their theology instead of the ACTUAL Greek definition, which is eternal. This blundering move brings into question our eternal life and the eternal nature of God. Rather serious business, I would say. There are 68 uses of the word in the NT (KJV). So, this isn't an isolated problem.

The most obvious offender is in Matthew twenty-five, as indicated. Here below is the text in question. Here we see three uses of the word "eternal", all with the same definition in the Greek. Three things that are equally eternal: eternal fire, eternal punishment, and eternal life. So, if we claim that the "punishment" is not eternal, we also have to claim that eternal life is not eternal. But the Greek word definition does not support any of this conjecture. The problems don't end there, See below.

Matthew 25:41, 46
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed,
into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. ...
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What about the other 66 uses of the same Greek word that is defined as eternal? What else would not be eternal if we apply the claims of Universalism? Why wouldn't we also apply "age-during" to this description of the eternal God?

Romans 16:26
but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith—
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In this example our redemption would be "age-during". As if it had a planned obsolescence. (better check your warranty)

Hebrews 9:12
He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I could continue, but I think you get the point.

FineLinen · Jul 4, 2019

FineLinen said:
There is one (1) passage of Canon for “everlasting punishment” (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

According to the context of St. Matthew 25 and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for “everlasting punishment” Matt. 25=

1._________________________________________?

2._________________________________________?

3._________________________________________?

4._________________________________________?

5._________________________________________?

Please Note

This is the easy part, the questions following this cornerstone text will be harder!

Yes, St. Matthew chapter 25, is the foundation upon which the cornerstone of "everlasting punishment" is rooted. Perhaps it would be wise to consider the entire passage under consideration below>>>>

Matthew 25 - New International Version (NIV) | Biblica

http://qbible.com/ebr-rotherhams-emp...atthew/25.html

Matthew 25 WEY

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...25&version=KJV

Matthew Chapter - 25 - Young's Literal Translation - Catholic Gallery - Bible

Matthew 25:46 - “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

"And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age). " -Jonathan Mitchell N.T. Translation-

FineLinen · Jul 4, 2019

This is such an easy exercise. Simple & straight forward.

Perhaps the harder aspects of this parable of Jesus Christ should be considered first.

1. Why are “virgins” in the context of Matt.25?

2. Why is this not a comparison between pure virgins and harlots or loose women?

3. Why are two clean animals (according to Old Covenant) in the parable i.e. sheep & goats?

4. Why not 1 clean animal and 1 unclean?

5. Why not a sheep (clean) and a pig (unclean)?

WHY?

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

FineLinen said:
Yes, St. Matthew chapter 25, is the foundation upon which the cornerstone of "everlasting punishment" is rooted. Perhaps it would be wise to consider the entire passage under consideration below>>>>

All we get is smokescreens.
Too bad we can't get a straight answer to simple questions.

You can't negate the ACTUAL definition of a NT Greek word with broad context.

Why do you ignore the ACTUAL definition of the NT Greek word aiōnios?
If something is "rooted" in a RELIABLE definition, it seems foolish to NOT accept it.

Did God really give up his only-begotten to give us life "age-during"? (temporary)
How can we call this present life "temporal" if the afterlife is only "age-during"? (temporary)

G166
aiōnios
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

FineLinen · Jul 4, 2019

St. John, the one who leaned on the bosom of the Master, defines aionios for us all, not as a time related word, but rather, quality.

"This IS life aionios that we may know You..."

Time or Character, The Ages or A Time Sequence in aionios: How Words "Mean" in Greek and English

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

Did God really give up his only-begotten to give us life "age-during"? (temporary)
How can we call this present life "temporal" if the afterlife is only "age-during"? (temporary)

There it is again. The NT Greek word aiōnios. (eternal)
Shown here as the CONTRAST to things temporal. (temporary/momentary) "age-during"?

2 Corinthians 4:17-18
For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

FineLinen said:
St. John, the one who leaned on the bosom of the Master, defines aionios for us all, not as a time related word, but rather, quality.

"This IS life aionios that we may know You..."

Sacred cow makes the best hamburger. (moo)

Your claim aligns with neither the NT Greek nor English definitions. Why?
Our relationship with God does not negate the meaning of eternal life.
Perhaps you are claiming the relationship is only temporary. ("age-during") Then what?

e·ter·nal
[əˈtərn(ə)l]
ADJECTIVE
lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.

G166
aiōnios
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

Here it is again. (aiōnios) Defined in English as everlasting. Also note: "and shut out".

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

Here it is again. (aiōnios) Defined in English as immortal.
Do you claim "age-during"? Thus attacking the very nature of God?

1 Timothy 6:15-16
...God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

FineLinen · Jul 4, 2019

FineLinen said:
St. John, the one who leaned on the bosom of the Master, defines aionios for us all, not as a time related word, but rather, quality.

"This IS life aionios that we may know You..."

Time or Character, The Ages or A Time Sequence in aionios: How Words "Mean" in Greek and English

Thank you Dr. Jenkins!

Time or Character, The Ages or A Time Sequence in aionios: How Words "Mean" in Greek and English

Perhaps it would be timely to compare what you have written & what St. John defines as aionios?

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

Here's something that shouldn't be messed with. Here it is again. (aiōnios)
Universalism claims it means "age-during" (temporary).

1 John 5:10-13, 20
Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. ...
20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

FineLinen said:
Perhaps it would be timely to compare what you have written & what St. John defines as aionios?

Perhaps it would be timely for you to consider the ACTUAL definition of the NT Greek word aiōnios. Is that too much to ask?

G166
aiōnios
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

FineLinen · Jul 4, 2019

Kolasis aionion -Matthew 25:46-

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46

“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46

Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).

Concerning the duration of kolasis (literally - corrective punishment), Matt. 25:46 says (KJV),

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”

Scarlett’s New Testament written in 1792 has “aeonian punishment” in place to “everlasting punishment.”

“And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life.”

The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:

“And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life.”

Young’s Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:

“And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.”

Professor Young also compiled Young’s Concordance, where one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV.

The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has:

“And these last will go away ‘into aeonian punishment,’ but the righteous ‘into aeonian life.’”

The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering:

"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.

The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. Weymouth, says:

“And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages.”

Dr. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as “life of the ages,” “fire of the ages;” and in Rev. 14:6, “The good news of the ages.”

It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth’s version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age.

The Western New Testament` published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows:

“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”

The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word “forever” which is the same word for “eternal” which says: "Literally, for the age.”

Clementson’s The New Testament (1938) shows,

“And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life.”

Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse,

“And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life.”

It should be noted that the “cutting-off” refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit.

The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word “timoria.”

The Concordant Version (1930):

“And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.”

The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says:

“And these shall go away into age lasting cutting-off and the just into age lasting life.”

Joseph B. Rotherham, in his Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse,

“and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life.”

The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976

has “age-abiding correction” instead of “everlasting punishment.”

Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010) has

"And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age)”.

Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King’s translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment.”

The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46

“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”

“God is the Source, Guide & Goal of ta panta (the all)”

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

Maybe this is the key to understanding Universalism?

e·ter·nal
[əˈtərn(ə)l]
ADJECTIVE
lasting for only a limited period of time; not permanent.

tem·po·rar·y
[ˈtempəˌrerē]
ADJECTIVE
lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

Name-dropping Saints and Doctors and Scholars...
But still ignoring the ACTUAL definition of the NT Greek word "aiōnios".

G166
aiōnios
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Hillsage · Jul 4, 2019

Saint Steven said:
That's not entirely true. Even so...
It is more than the ZERO evidence (passage of Canon) you have for "age-during".

No it is true, that's why I asked you earlier to give me ONE VERSE saying there was ETERNAL HELL. You never produced it, why? If you even have ONE in your 'control the church' translations prove it. As for us, we have multiple bibles proving the inconsistency of mainstream translations.

It seems to be based on a handful of obscure translations (Youngs Literal translation, Concordant Literal translation, and Rotherham's translation)

It seems to be that way to you because you, and the 'majority church' hasn't studied enough outside of that which has been bottle fed to them. I can list 25 translations that don't have the word hell in them. And calling Young's obscure is pretty revealing of you Steve. Do a Google or something. As for your judgment of the YLT, the author of the YLT is the same James Young who wrote Young's (Greek Hebrew) analytical concordance to the bible. Ever hear of it? I believe it is second in sales compared to Strong's.

Number of times that HELL is in the following non obscure TRANSLATIONS.

Authorized King James Version 54x
New King James Version 32x
American Standard Version 13x
New American Standard Bible 13x
Revised Standard Version 12x
Young's Literal Trans 0x

As anyone can easily see, the only obscure thing proved here above is how obscurely hell seems to be consistently translated. I mean, seriously just look at the drop from the old Infallible KJV versus the NEW infallible KJV. Where is hell disappearing to Steve?

Wrangler · Jul 4, 2019

I am a Universalist. One of the passages I like, Catholics use to support purgatory.

12 As others build on the foundation (whether with gold, silver, gemstones, wood, hay, or straw), 13 the quality of each person’s work will be revealed in time as it is tested by fire. 14 If a man’s work stands the test of fire, he will be rewarded. 15 If a man’s work is consumed by the fire, his reward will be lost but he will be spared, rescued from the fire.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (VOICE)

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

Hillsage said:
...As for us, we have multiple bibles proving the inconsistency of mainstream translations. ...

I thought you said you were done? Welcome back.

Inconsistency?

Yes. I suppose three obscure and spurious translations would qualify as "multiple" bibles.
But that doesn't explain why they chose to willfully -- INSERT -- text into the Word of God that reflects their own theology instead of the ACTUAL definition of the NT Greek word. Isn't that what you are accusing the "lying scribes" of doing?

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