Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

mkgal1 said:

I agree - Jesus was pointing also to the gift of the Holy Spirit which was to come (when Jesus stated that).....but why did Peter quote Joel and say, "This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel” (Acts 2:15) if he wasn't referring to - at least PART of - the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy? What would be Peter's reason to include that (in your mind)?

Acts 2:1-22 ~
1 When Pentecost Day arrived, they were all together in one place.
2 Suddenly a sound from heaven like the howling of a fierce wind filled the entire house where they were sitting.
3 They saw what seemed to be individual flames of fire alighting on each one of them.
4 They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages as the Spirit enabled them to speak.
5 There were pious Jews from every nation under heaven living in Jerusalem.
6When they heard this sound, a crowd gathered. They were mystified because everyone heard them speaking in their native languages.
7 They were surprised and amazed, saying, "Look, aren't all the people who are speaking Galileans, every one of them?
8 How then can each of us hear them speaking in our native language?
9Parthians, Medes, and Elamites; as well as residents of Mesopotamia, Judea, and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the regions of Libya bordering Cyrene; and visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism),
11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the mighty works of God in our own languages!"
12 They were all surprised and bewildered. Some asked each other, "What does this mean?"
13 Others jeered at them, saying, "They're full of new wine!"
14 Peter stood with the other eleven apostles. He raised his voice and declared, “Judeans and everyone living in Jerusalem! Know this! Listen carefully to my words!
15 These people aren't drunk, as you suspect; after all, it's only nine o'clock in the morning!
16 Rather, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:
17In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your young will see visions. Your elders will dream dreams.
18 Even upon my servants, men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
19 I will cause wonders to occur in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and a cloud of smoke.
20 The sun will be changed into darkness, and the moon will be changed into blood, before the great and spectacular day of the Lord comes.
21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to these words! Jesus the Nazarene was a man whose credentials God proved to you through miracles, wonders, and signs, which God performed through him among you. You yourselves know this. ~ Acts 2 - CEB Bible - When Pentecost Day arrived, they were all together...

Joel 2:27-32 ~ You will know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God—no other exists; never again will my people be put to shame.
28 After that I will pour out my spirit upon everyone; your sons and your daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, and your young men will see visions.
29 In those days, I will also pour out my spirit on the male and female slaves.
30 I will give signs in the heavens and on the earth—blood and fire and columns of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood before the great and dreadful day of the LORD comes.
32 But everyone who calls on the LORD's name will be saved. ~ Joel 2 - CEB Bible - Blow the horn in Zion; give a shout on my holy...

Notice what's left out in Peter's sermon "for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be security, as the LORD has promised; and in Jerusalem, the LORD will summon those who survive." There was no longer security in the earthly city of Jerusalem. ​

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mkgal1,

1. Acts 2:16-20; Peter said that which was spoken by the prophet Joel not fulfillment.
The only thing basically that happened from Joel’s prophesy was the Spirit being poured out and speaking in tongues was the evidence he had come and people calling on the name of the Lord.
There was nothing about daughters prophesying, men having visions or wonders in Heaven and sign in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: or the sun turning into darkness, and the moon turning to blood, and the great and notable day wasn’t close to happening.

2. Blow the horn in Zion will not happen till the tribulation in the season of the Day of the Lord Joel 2:1.

3. In the time of Jacob’s trouble Israel’s national light will almost be snuffed out.
Daniel 12:7,11; Revelation 11:2; Zechariah 14:1-2. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

ebedlemech,

1. You don’t understand the big picture and you cannot and have not answered to the scriptures I have given.

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What you've attempted to give is your big picture Jerry, not the picture scripture gives. When I have answered scriptures you supply in your post, you either ignore them or go on a diatribe with no scriptural support.

jerry kelso said:

2. I answered to your objections and scriptures but you cannot answer to mine.
Romans 2 you couldn’t refute and all you could do is disagree and say you would stay with what you understood.

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Romans 2 was easy to refute because vss 1-3 shut down your point. Here they are:
Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

That passage applies to everyone Jew or Gentile Jerry....it's plain as day. So everyone is under sin. Do you deny that? We can deal with the next points of Romans 2 after you respond.

jerry kelso said:

Well, I agreed with the part you understood. We can be called spiritual Jesus for we have had the circumcision of the heart. But the other part of the spiritual Jew theory is a whole doctrine that takes away the earthly calling of Israel and puts the Church age saints in their place in the KoH reign on earth and you cannot prove it by scripture. You are free to believe whatever you want but give the whole truth of a context and not just the part you understand. That is improper handling of rightly dividing the word. Jerry Kelso

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Really? What do you do with these?:

Matthew 8:11-12
10 Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, “Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.
11 I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

This was said to Jews after a Gentile Roman Centurion showed his faith in Jesus. Clearly this doesn't support your belief on this Jerry.

Matthew 21:43-45:
43 Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.
44 And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust.”
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.

Clearly Jesus has told them the KOG/KOH will be taken from them and given to "a people producing it's fruit.

Your main "spin" is to try and make the KOH/KOG two different things when it's plain from scripture that they are synonymous terms. From where I stand it's fruitless to continue to debate that with you, where you refuse to accept the fact. In fact...you haven't shown anything scriptural that shows the KOG/KOH to be different at all.

Please Jerry, when you respond don't write a book. Simply supply passages of scripture that support your point.

ebedmelech said:

What you've attempted to give is your big picture Jerry, not the picture scripture gives. When I have answered scriptures you supply in your post, you either ignore them or go on a diatribe with no scriptural support.


Romans 2 was easy to refute because vss 1-3 shut down your point. Here they are:
Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

That passage applies to everyone Jew or Gentile Jerry....it's plain as day. So everyone is under sin. Do you deny that? We can deal with the next points of Romans 2 after you respond.



Really? What do you do with these?:

Matthew 8:11-12
10 Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, “Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.
11 I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

This was said to Jews after a Gentile Roman Centurion showed his faith in Jesus. Clearly this doesn't support your belief on this Jerry.

Matthew 21:43-45:
43 Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.
44 And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust.”
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.

Clearly Jesus has told them the KOG/KOH will be taken from them and given to "a people producing it's fruit.

Your main "spin" is to try and make the KOH/KOG two different things when it's plain from scripture that they are synonymous terms. From where I stand it's fruitless to continue to debate that with you, where you refuse to accept the fact. In fact...you haven't shown anything scriptural that shows the KOG/KOH to be different at all.

Please Jerry, when you respond don't write a book. Simply supply passages of scripture that support your point.

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ebedlemech,

1. You have not addressed half the scriptures and have given your opinion.
I have refuted your scripture with scripture. I am looking at the big picture with history about the KoH and the KoG, but you are looking more at a superficial reading of a few scriptures.

2. Romans 2:1-3 speaks to Jew and gentile and yes both are under sin just like in Romans 3:23.
This doesn’t alter the context of vs. 16-29.

3. Matthew 11:8-12; What is your point?
Jesus was to be a light to the gentiles Isaiah 9:1-2; Matthew 4:14–16; Luke 2:23.
This has nothing to do with preaching the KoH and the KoG message to all the gentile nation for the covenant was with Israel.
Even Israel was to the light and salt of the earth.
Going back to Matthew 4:17 after Jesus was being a light to Gentiles it says: From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, Repent for the KoH is at hand . Then he started to pick his disciples started ministering to his Jewish people.

4. He talked to the centurion and he also talked to the phonecian woman and called her a dog. And yet she had the greatest faith because of her humbleness of what her position was that was inferior to the Jewish nation because of having no covenant etc. But, in the eyes of God all men deserve to be saved.
The point is Jesus talked to Gentiles and could save them but that doesn’t mean he preached the KoH and the KoG message to all the gentiles or any gentiles. You do not understand the full context of that message. This is why you don’t understand Matthew 10:6-7 and you probably think it was written to the church.

5. Matthew 21:43-45; the KoG in this context is the spiritual aspect such as in Luke 17:20-21.
It has nothing to do with the physical KoH reign. This was prophetic to the Gentiles after the cross, manifesting after Peter’s vision of the clean and unclean Acts 10 and more dominant in Paul’s ministry Romans 11.

6. Matthew 4:17 is the Physical Kingdom. All Jews knew this.
Luke 1:67-75 Both covenants of Abraham and David mentioned physical and spiritual freedom to come because of the Messiah.
The spiritual aspect of the KoG Matthew 6:33, Luke 17:20-22. The Jews were never told to seek the KoH for spiritual salvation within.

7. Understand the whole context and not bits and pieces that don’t prove the whole point.
Do you know what the Sermon on the Mount meant to a Jew context wise to the mosaic law? Jerry Kelso

Jerry,

1. I don't have to address every scripture you give, when that scripture starts out from a wrong premise Jerry, because error leads to more error.

2. Romans 2:16-27 starts from the very error the Jews made in the first place. Thinking obeying the Law of God led to salvation, when it never did and never will. Also thinking being circumcised made them God's people. Salvation has never been by works and never will be. Always remember what Paul said: "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness". Never has works saved anyone! That is Paul's message!

3. The point of Matthew 11:8-12 is exactly what Jesus said. The KOG was taken from Israel under the New Covenant. Anyone that comes to Christ are His people regardless of ethnicity. That's why there's a New Covenant. There's no difference, just as scripture says, and just as you *think* there's a difference in the KOG/KOH when there isn't.

You're correct, Jesus was and is a light to all. That's the point...so when did Israel repent Jerry? I never contend that Jesus didn't preach to Israel first...and this is your problem. You think you're telling me something I don't know. How many times have I said Jesus "came to His own and those wh were His own did not receive Him"? Why do you like to ignore that point?

4. You haven't even established that there is a message of the Kingdom of Heaven that is different from the Kingdom of God. You need to do that first or you start from a false premise.

5. You're again missing the boat Jerry. in Luke 17, where Jesus said "the Kingdom of God is in your midst"...He's speaking of Himself....His indwelling those who receive Him. You get it? Christ in one is their hope of Glory. As I sad before, you cannot separate the physical from the spiritual.

6. Really? That was established long ago Jerry! What do you think God means in Deuteronomy 10:12-17? That's salvation right there...and it's exactly what Paul is saying in Romans 2:28,29.

7. I'm proving I understand the whole context of scripture Jerry.

When you respond...please do so with one issue. This is my challenge to you: Point to just one passage that shows there's a difference in the KOG and KOH. Try not to drift on to other things if you can.

ebedmelech said:

Jerry,

1. I don't have to address every scripture you give, when that scripture starts out from a wrong premise Jerry, because error leads to more error.

2. Romans 2:16-27 starts from the very error the Jews made in the first place. Thinking obeying the Law of God led to salvation, when it never did and never will. Also thinking being circumcised made them God's people. Salvation has never been by works and never will be. Always remember what Paul said: "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness". Never has works saved anyone! That is Paul's message!

3. The point of Matthew 11:8-12 is exactly what Jesus said. The KOG was taken from Israel under the New Covenant. Anyone that comes to Christ are His people regardless of ethnicity. That's why there's a New Covenant. There's no difference, just as scripture says, and just as you *think* there's a difference in the KOG/KOH when there isn't.

You're correct, Jesus was and is a light to all. That's the point...so when did Israel repent Jerry? I never contend that Jesus didn't preach to Israel first...and this is your problem. You think you're telling me something I don't know. How many times have I said Jesus "came to His own and those wh were His own did not receive Him"? Why do you like to ignore that point?

4. You haven't even established that there is a message of the Kingdom of Heaven that is different from the Kingdom of God. You need to do that first or you start from a false premise.

5. You're again missing the boat Jerry. in Luke 17, where Jesus said "the Kingdom of God is in your midst"...He's speaking of Himself....His indwelling those who receive Him. You get it? Christ in one is their hope of Glory. As I sad before, you cannot separate the physical from the spiritual.

6. Really? That was established long ago Jerry! What do you think God means in Deuteronomy 10:12-17? That's salvation right there...and it's exactly what Paul is saying in Romans 2:28,29.

7. I'm proving I understand the whole context of scripture Jerry.

When you respond...please do so with one issue. This is my challenge to you: Point to just one passage that shows there's a difference in the KOG and KOH. Try not to drift on to other things if you can.

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ebedlemech,

1. You live in a dream world by saying that the physical and the spiritual are the same.
You don’t know what you are talking about.
2. Let me ask you a question about knowing s context. What do you think Paul meant when he said I die daily in 1 Corinthians 15:31? Jerry Kelso

katiemygirl said:

Jerry,

It is impossible for me to discuss/debate all of the points you try to make. I don't have time. Please limit your responses to one point at a time..

In my last post to you, I focused on one point only, and that was to show that God has already fulfilled His land promise to Israel. You ignored my point. You didn't refute it, so I will take that to mean you agree with me. That is great!

You said it is not Biblical to call the church "spiritual Israel" It's true that the actual term is not found in the Bible, but then, as my OP states, "Nowhere in Revelation 20:4 does it say that Jesus is coming to this earth to establish a worldly Kingdom at Jerusalem." The phrase "thousand year reign of Christ" does not appear anywhere in scripture. Neither does the term "millenium." Yet, you use these terms. How is my use of the term "spiritual Israel" different than your use of the terms I mentioned above?

I believe the Bible when it says Christians are the true Jews today.

Romans 2:28-29
28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

"for we [Christians] are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,... " (Phil. 3:3)

"For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6:15-16)

Surely you don't think the "Israel of God," in the above passage, is physical Israel? So then, who is the Israel of God if it is not christians, the church of the living God?

The peace in Phil. 3:3 is for those who walk according to Christ so it CANNOT refer to fleshly/physical Israel that rejects Christ.


The church is true Israel and Christians are God's true "Jews" today.

Blessings,

Katie

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Agree ... and the new earthly Jerusalem will be established on earth after God completes His plan in it's entirety.

Romans 8:5
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

We walk (while on earth) in the spirit.

A New Heaven and a New Earth

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying:

“Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man,
and He will live with them.
They will be His people,
and God Himself will be with them as their God.
4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,
and there will be no more death
or mourning or crying or pain,
for the former things have passed away.”

5And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.” 6And He told me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.

AMEN!!!!

jerry kelso said:

ebedlemech,

1. You live in a dream world by saying that the physical and the spiritual are the same.
You don’t know what you are talking about.

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Well Jerry....let's examine that. Considering yourself saved, and knowing the scripture says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord that means to things:

*Should you die, the physical part of you is buried.

*Your spirit goes into the presence of Christ...not to be rejoined to your body until the resurrection.

In saying they are the same...they are you. Just as Christians on earth are the kingdom of God, so are those who have gone before us into God's presence.

If you don't understand your spirit resides in your physical body until death, I see why you can see the point of view. Just as Christians are the KOG physically present on earth...those Christians that have gone on before us are in the kingdom in the presence of Christ. Either way each are the kingdom of God

2. Let me ask you a question about knowing s context. What do you think Paul meant when he said I die daily in 1 Corinthians 15:31? Jerry Kelso[/QUOTE]
What Paul means there is he dies to himself, to live for Christ. The point being, he's dying to allowing sin to dominate him to live to Christ. Romans 6 is in order in what Paul said.

eleos1954 said:

Agree ... and the new earthly Jerusalem will be established on earth after God completes His plan in it's entirety.

Romans 8:5
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

We walk (while on earth) in the spirit.

A New Heaven and a New Earth

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying:

“Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man,
and He will live with them.
They will be His people,
and God Himself will be with them as their God.
4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,
and there will be no more death
or mourning or crying or pain,
for the former things have passed away.”

5And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.” 6And He told me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.

AMEN!!!!

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eloas1954,

1. One point? You have two because Romans 8:5 has no direct point of context to Revelation 21.

2. You posted about the New Heaven and the New Earth and it being established after the entirety of God’s plan.
I believe that and have said it.
Do you have a main point for listing this or is just to show of how to post one point of a subject? Jerry Kelso

ebedmelech said:

Well Jerry....let's examine that. Considering yourself saved, and knowing the scripture says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord that means to things:

*Should you die, the physical part of you is buried.

*Your spirit goes into the presence of Christ...not to be rejoined to your body until the resurrection.

In saying they are the same...they are you. Just as Christians on earth are the kingdom of God, so are those who have gone before us into God's presence.

If you don't understand your spirit resides in your physical body until death, I see why you can see the point of view. Just as Christians are the KOG physically present on earth...those Christians that have gone on before us are in the kingdom in the presence of Christ. Either way each are the kingdom of God

2. Let me ask you a question about knowing s context. What do you think Paul meant when he said I die daily in 1 Corinthians 15:31? Jerry Kelso

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What Paul means there is he dies to himself, to live for Christ. The point being, he's dying to allowing sin to dominate him to live to Christ. Romans 6 is in order in what Paul said.[/QUOTE]

"and knowing the scripture says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord that means to things:"

Except that's not what is says.
New International Version
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

English Standard Version
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Berean Study Bible
We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Would we rather or prefer to be away from our body (of course we would) ... does not say or mean, that when not in our body that we are in fact at home with the Lord.

because we do not wish to be unclothed but clothed, so that our mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5And God has prepared us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a pledge of what is to come.

When do we become immortal?

When Jesus returns and the 1st resurrection happens.

1 Corinthians 15

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

ebedmelech said:

Well Jerry....let's examine that. Considering yourself saved, and knowing the scripture says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord that means to things:

*Should you die, the physical part of you is buried.

*Your spirit goes into the presence of Christ...not to be rejoined to your body until the resurrection.

In saying they are the same...they are you. Just as Christians on earth are the kingdom of God, so are those who have gone before us into God's presence.

If you don't understand your spirit resides in your physical body until death, I see why you can see the point of view. Just as Christians are the KOG physically present on earth...those Christians that have gone on before us are in the kingdom in the presence of Christ. Either way each are the kingdom of God

2. Let me ask you a question about knowing s context. What do you think Paul meant when he said I die daily in 1 Corinthians 15:31? Jerry Kelso

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What Paul means there is he dies to himself, to live for Christ. The point being, he's dying to allowing sin to dominate him to live to Christ. Romans 6 is in order in what Paul said.[/QUOTE]

ebedlemech,

1. Sorry, but that is not the heart of the context.

2. It is about physical resurrection not dying daily.
Paul already died to self and sin. Romans 6 says he died to sin once as Christ died.
As far as dying to self he said he gloried only in the cross.

3. Paul said the death, burial and resurrection was the only gospel.
He said they put their life on the line for the cause of Christ everyday and could be killed for as Romans 8 says they were killed in the hearts of people and led like sheep to the slaughter.
In 1 Corinthians 15:12 he was talking to those who didn’t believe in the physical resurrection.
Paul said if there was no hope of a physical resurrection everything was in vain. Their preaching was in vain, their faith was in vain and Christ died in vain and even what good was water baptism of the dead if there’s don’t rid?
Paul even went through a whole excursion of the physical resurrection from Christ the first fruits to those at his coming.
So if there was no hope of a physical resurrection they might as well eat, drink, and be merry for there’s no tomorrow.

4. That is the true context.
To properly harmonize with that passage is 2 Corinthians 4:9-10; we eat about in our body the dying of the Lord Jesus.
The dying of the Lord Jesus was the death, burial and resurrection gospel of salvation that is a stumbling block to those who don’t want to believe.
So your context is wrong and that is why and how we get wrong doctrine.
Your other point I don’t have time with right now. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

ebedlemech,

1. Sorry, but that is not the heart of the context.

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In fact dying to sin is the context Jerry, as yes, Paul resurrection...BUT...he also is speaking of living His life fully to Christ and encouraging them to do so. The passage is 1 Corinthians 15:29-34:

29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?
30 Why are we also in danger every hour?
31 I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.
33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.”
34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

jerry kelso said:

2. It is about physical resurrection not dying daily. Paul already died to self and sin. Romans 6 says he died to sin once as Christ died.
As far as dying to self he said he gloried only in the cross.

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Jerry, you in fact got lost in the context of this passage.

Paul has put his life in danger preaching the gospel Jerry. He clearly says He "affirms by the boasting in those Corinthians being in Christ" he dies daily. The point being he is an example of how to live in Christ. He practices what he preaches. How could he boast of the Corinthians being in Christ if they continue in sin Jerry? You have to hold to all that Paul has been addressing to the Corinthian Church up to chapter 15 also...and you should know Paul had addressed all type of sin that was going on in that church.

Paul then uses a hypothetical next stating "If he fought wild beast it would be fruitless for him to do so if the dead are not raised". It would be a waste of time, because he could live his life as he pleases if there is no resurrection. Paul brings up resurrection, because he's reinforcing the fact that there is a resurrection to come...BUT...he then turns back to the Corinthians believers and their living to Christ, speaking of turning from sin in verses 33 and 34 Jerry. Why would he say "bad company corrupts good morals" and "stop sinning"? That is the context of the passage above. So I'm on a firm understanding of this portion of passage.

It is at vs 35 that Paul turns back to resurrection and how it will happen.

jerry kelso said:

4. That is the true context.
To properly harmonize with that passage is 2 Corinthians 4:9-10; we eat about in our body the dying of the Lord Jesus. The dying of the Lord Jesus was the death, burial and resurrection gospel of salvation that is a stumbling block to those who don’t want to believe. So your context is wrong and that is why and how we get wrong doctrine.

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I think I've proven in my response you're quite wrong contextually Jerry. In fact your reference makes the point I made. Take note of vss 10-12:
10 always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.
11 For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.
12 So death works in us, but life in you.
The point here is in staying focused on Jesus and living to Him, they are empowered by the Holy Spirit, to endure the persecution they've gone through and would go though, and to live Christ like lives. That's how they manifest Christ in their mortal flesh! You know? It's like "Christ in you, your hope of glory"!!!

It is living through the power of Jesus that their living encourages the Corinthians to do the same Jerry.

eleos1954 said:

What Paul means there is he dies to himself, to live for Christ. The point being, he's dying to allowing sin to dominate him to live to Christ. Romans 6 is in order in what Paul said.

"and knowing the scripture says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord that means to things:"

Except that's not what is says.
New International Version
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

English Standard Version
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Berean Study Bible
We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Would we rather or prefer to be away from our body (of course we would) ... does not say or mean, that when not in our body that we are in fact at home with the Lord.

because we do not wish to be unclothed but clothed, so that our mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5And God has prepared us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a pledge of what is to come.

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Well, I didn't quote scripture word for word. However, in essence, that's what it means. Paul again says as much in again Phillipians 1:21-24. Upon death, if one is saved their spirit goes into the presence of Christ. Scripture is clear on that. Paul said his dilemma was whether "to depart and be with Christ...or to remain in the flesh for the benefit of the Philppian Church. It's clear he knew if he died he would be with Christ.

eleos1954 said:

When do we become immortal?

When Jesus returns and the 1st resurrection happens.

1 Corinthians 15

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

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I don't see it that way.
The 1st resurrection is spiritual. It occurs when we are made alive to God through our salvation by the Holy Spirit. Romans 6:1-11 and also Ephesians 2:1-10 make that clear.
Prior to salvation, we are dead in trespasses and sins. Again, upon salvation we are made alive to God. This is why the second death, has no power over the believer in Christ.
1 Thessalonians 4 :13-18 is simply a short version of 1 Corinthians 15. Vss 13, 14 which you quote, make it clear this is physical resurrection. It is about those who have died in Christ. Paul is comforting those believers with the knowledge that those who have died in Christ, will be resurrected.

There is one physical resurrection. Jesus said in John 5:28, 29:
28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
One physical resurrection with two categories...saved or lost!

ebedmelech said:

In fact dying to sin is the context Jerry, as yes, Paul resurrection...BUT...he also is speaking of living His life fully to Christ and encouraging them to do so. The passage is 1 Corinthians 15:29-34:

29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?
30 Why are we also in danger every hour?
31 I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.
33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.”
34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.



Jerry, you in fact got lost in the context of this passage.

Paul has put his life in danger preaching the gospel Jerry. He clearly says He "affirms by the boasting in those Corinthians being in Christ" he dies daily. The point being he is an example of how to live in Christ. He practices what he preaches. How could he boast of the Corinthians being in Christ if they continue in sin Jerry? You have to hold to all that Paul has been addressing to the Corinthian Church up to chapter 15 also...and you should know Paul had addressed all type of sin that was going on in that church.

Paul then uses a hypothetical next stating "If he fought wild beast it would be fruitless for him to do so if the dead are not raised". It would be a waste of time, because he could live his life as he pleases if there is no resurrection. Paul brings up resurrection, because he's reinforcing the fact that there is a resurrection to come...BUT...he then turns back to the Corinthians believers and their living to Christ, speaking of turning from sin in verses 33 and 34 Jerry. Why would he say "bad company corrupts good morals" and "stop sinning"? That is the context of the passage above. So I'm on a firm understanding of this portion of passage.

It is at vs 35 that Paul turns back to resurrection and how it will happen.


I think I've proven in my response you're quite wrong contextually Jerry. In fact your reference makes the point I made. Take note of vss 10-12:
10 always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.
11 For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.
12 So death works in us, but life in you.
The point here is in staying focused on Jesus and living to Him, they are empowered by the Holy Spirit, to endure the persecution they've gone through and would go though, and to live Christ like lives. That's how they manifest Christ in their mortal flesh! You know? It's like "Christ in you, your hope of glory"!!!

It is living through the power of Jesus that their living encourages the Corinthians to do the same Jerry.

Click to expand...

ebedlemech,

1. Paul believed dying to sin once as Christ did Romans 6:6-11; Galatians 2:20

2. The whole chapter is about physical resurrection.
I die daily is about physical resurrection as I have already stated. It also is about the outward man perishing day by day such as in 2 Corinthians 4:16.

3. The key is in verse 12; Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead , how say some among you that here is no resurrection of the dead?
Verse 13; But if there be no resurrection of the dead then is Christ not risen. This is physical resurrection.
V14; if Christ be not risen( physically) then is our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain(spiritual things).
V 20 is about Christ risen from the dead so he could be the first fruits of them that slept.
V 29-32 is about physical resurrection.
Baptism for the dead, standing in jeopardy every hour, dying daily for the outward body perishing everyday, and fighting with the beasts of Ephesus then what advantage if the dead rise not. These are all about physical resurrection and this is where the context ends for dying daily.

4. Verse 33-34 is an exhortation to righteousness in view of the resurrection.

5. The dying of the Lord Jesus is spiritual so that the life of Jesus being manifested in our body was in reference to vs 8-9 about us being treasure in earthen vessels and trials we go through and still are victorious because of God.
V 11; For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
The physical danger in the outward perishing of man each day is so our witness of living for Jesus will be shown.

6. So 1 Corinthians 15:1:32 is about physical resurrection and the outward man perishing everyday such as in 2 Corinthians 4:16.
33-34 this exhortation doesn’t change the context of I die daily and Paul was not espousing dying to sin everyday Romans 6:6; Galatians 2:20. He believed in glorying in the cross Galatians 6:14.
Really the exhortation was rosy flowers because he spoke it their shame.
So you are still not correct to the context. Jerry kelso

ebedmelech said:

Well, I didn't quote scripture word for word. However, in essence, that's what it means. Paul again says as much in again Phillipians 1:21-24. Upon death, if one is saved their spirit goes into the presence of Christ. Scripture is clear on that. Paul said his dilemma was whether "to depart and be with Christ...or to remain in the flesh for the benefit of the Philppian Church. It's clear he knew if he died he would be with Christ.


I don't see it that way.
The 1st resurrection is spiritual. It occurs when we are made alive to God through our salvation by the Holy Spirit. Romans 6:1-11 and also Ephesians 2:1-10 make that clear.
Prior to salvation, we are dead in trespasses and sins. Again, upon salvation we are made alive to God. This is why the second death, has no power over the believer in Christ.
1 Thessalonians 4 :13-18 is simply a short version of 1 Corinthians 15. Vss 13, 14 which you quote, make it clear this is physical resurrection. It is about those who have died in Christ. Paul is comforting those believers with the knowledge that those who have died in Christ, will be resurrected.

There is one physical resurrection. Jesus said in John 5:28, 29:
28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
One physical resurrection with two categories...saved or lost!

Click to expand...

so ... if I am understanding you correctly (apologize if not) then you are saying that according to Paul a mans "spirit" returns to God at their earthy death and mans spirit is in the presence of the Lord ... so is this a conscious spirit? And that at the first resurrection this same spirit will be given a body?

jerry kelso said:

ebedlemech,

1. Paul believed dying to sin once as Christ did Romans 6:6-11; Galatians 2:20

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If you get what Paul is saying, you would understand that as referring to his salvation. It is through Christ that we die to sin once, because the life of Christ, who never sinned, is in place of our life. This doesn't mean we don't commit sin as believers. God sees us through the sinless life of Christ Jerry. You and I sin everyday. Paul understands "dying to sin once" as his salvation. Romans 6:6 makes the point:

6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

To take it a step further, John makes this very point in 1 John 3:9
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

That is how Paul can say he died to sin once Jerry, he doesn't mean he himself doesn't sin. He does mean because Christ life is in his account, he died to sin.

Galatians 2:20 is making that very point, and you’re just not acknowledging what Paul means…but he says it at this point where Paul says:
"and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."
Paul here, is saying he lives by allowing the Spirit of Jesus to live through him!!! That is how he dies daily...he crucifies the flesh to not letting the desires of the flesh dominate him, but he allows living through faith in Christ to rule his life. Paul never denies that he sins.

jerry kelso said:

2. The whole chapter is about physical resurrection.
I die daily is about physical resurrection as I have already stated. It also is about the outward man perishing day by day such as in 2 Corinthians 4:16.

Click to expand...

You can sing that until the cows come home Jerry, that doesn’t mean you’re right. No on denies 1 Corinthians 15 is overall about resurrection…BUT…every bit of it is not. Other points are being made in the passage. As I asked you before if Paul is not talking about dying to sin, as well as living for Christ, why does verses 34 and 35 direct the Corinthians to watch the company they keep, and to stop sinning? Can you answer that?

jerry kelso said:

3. The key is in verse 12; Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead , how say some among you that here is no resurrection of the dead?

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Verse 12, no doubt, brings up the subject of resurrection Jerry. No one doubts that. The point is…is that all Paul speaks about? The answer is no...because the subject of resurrection leads to other subjects. Paul isn’t singing just one song (so to speak).

jerry kelso said:

Verse 13; But if there be no resurrection of the dead then is Christ not risen. This is physical resurrection.
V14; if Christ be not risen( physically) then is our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain(spiritual things).
V 20 is about Christ risen from the dead so he could be the first fruits of them that slept.
V 29-32 is about physical resurrection.
Baptism for the dead, standing in jeopardy every hour, dying daily for the outward body perishing everyday, and fighting with the beasts of Ephesus then what advantage if the dead rise not. These are all about physical resurrection and this is where the context ends for dying daily.

4. Verse 33-34 is an exhortation to righteousness in view of the resurrection.

5. The dying of the Lord Jesus is spiritual so that the life of Jesus being manifested in our body was in reference to vs 8-9 about us being treasure in earthen vessels and trials we go through and still are victorious because of God.
V 11; For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
The physical danger in the outward perishing of man each day is so our witness of living for Jesus will be shown.

6. So 1 Corinthians 15:1:32 is about physical resurrection and the outward man perishing everyday such as in 2 Corinthians 4:16.
33-34 this exhortation doesn’t change the context of I die daily and Paul was not espousing dying to sin everyday Romans 6:6; Galatians 2:20. He believed in glorying in the cross Galatians 6:14.
Really the exhortation was rosy flowers because he spoke it their shame.
So you are still not correct to the context. Jerry kelso

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We’re simply going to agree we disagree. Paul means more than resurrection when he speaks of “dying daily” Jerry…and you just don get it so you want to “play one song”, which is resurrection…but context determines.

You’re trying to side step the passage in saying “Verse 33-34 is an exhortation to righteousness in view of the resurrection.” But how does one become righteous without dying to sin in their life Jerry? It’s not and exhortation...it is a command! Paul said STOP SINNING, so why would he say "stop sinning" if people in the church are not sinning?

*Sometimes when Paul says “he dies daily” he means to himself or his desires, to live for Christ…like Galatians 2:20

*Other times he says it he means putting off of the life of sin to live for Christ…like Romans 6:8-11

The fact is that resurrection, for the believer is both physical and spiritual. The entirety of Romans 6 makes this very point.

There’s no need to keep on with this topic brother. You keep your view, and I’ll keep mine. I’m done on this point.

eleos1954 said:

so ... if I am understanding you correctly (apologize if not) then you are saying that according to Paul a mans "spirit" returns to God at their earthy death and mans spirit is in the presence of the Lord ...

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I would add a qualifier..."a saved man's spirit goes to God at their earthly death, while their body remains in the earth.

eleos1954 said:

so is this a conscious spirit? And that at the first resurrection this same spirit will be given a body?

Click to expand...

Yes, the spirit is conscious, but disembodied. Resurrection joins the spirit back to the body. For believers we are "changed" at resurrection and receive immortal bodies, (1 Corinthians 15:50-53, 1 Thess 4:13-18,).

This is how Paul could say this is Philippians 1:21-23
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

Paul knows that at his death he goes into the presence of God. Stephen, when he was stoned, saw Jesus standing to receive him into His presence though is body died.

ebedmelech said:

I would add a qualifier..."a saved man's spirit goes to God at their earthly death, while their body remains in the earth.


Yes, the spirit is conscious, but disembodied. Resurrection joins the spirit back to the body. For believers we are "changed" at resurrection and receive immortal bodies, (1 Corinthians 15:50-53, 1 Thess 4:13-18,).

This is how Paul could say this is Philippians 1:21-23
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

Paul knows that at his death he goes into the presence of God. Stephen, when he was stoned, saw Jesus standing to receive him into His presence though is body died.

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There have been many (biblical accounts) who have seen Jesus/God/heaven in vision(s) ... so no doubt Stephen had a vision, while he was still alive.

Believing that anything of us spirit-wise with conscience is believing something of us continues on and thereby believing in immortality ... there is nothing immortal about us.

Scripture gives us a simple equation for understanding the nature of humans:
Body (dust of the ground; the earth's elements) plus
Breath of life ("spirit" of life from God) equals
A living person (a soul).

Genesis 2
New International Version
7 Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Nowhere does the Bible speak of the soul as an immortal entity capable of living apart from our body. Neither does it speak of the spirit as an entity which can exist independent of our physical nature. We are not made of independent parts temporarily connected, but of body, soul, and spirit in one indivisible whole.

1 Thessalonians 5:23

Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life (1st resurrection), and some to shame and everlasting contempt (2nd resurrection).

1st Timothy 6

16 He (God) alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seenHim, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

We do not become immortal until Jesus returns.

Philippians 1:21-23

When writing to the Philippians here, Paul was struggling with two desires. He wanted to be done with his fleshly life and be with Christ, but he also wanted to remain with God’s people.

In his second letter to Timothy he speaks dogmatically of what lies ahead, knowing the end of his physical life is near and he is ready to depart: “For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing” (2 Timothy 4:6-8).

Paul, then, understood that he was not to receive his reward immediately at death. He knew that if executed, he would go to the grave, and there his remains would lie until the time of his resurrection. He understood that, since the dead have no thought processes whatsoever, in his next waking moment he would be with the returning Messiah, Jesus, joining Him along with the other saints at the time of the resurrection.

Reaffirmed here again by Paul

1 Thessalonians

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

eleos1954 said:

There have been many (biblical accounts) who have seen Jesus/God/heaven in vision(s) ... so no doubt Stephen had a vision, while he was still alive.

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In fact he was being stoned...and He said "Lord receive my spirit"...because he knew he was about to die. Stephen knew where he was going...and even asked Jesus to forgive those stoning him.

eleos1954 said:

Believing that anything of us spirit-wise with conscience is believing something of us continues on and thereby believing in immortality ... there is nothing immortal about us.

Scripture gives us a simple equation for understanding the nature of humans:
Body (dust of the ground; the earth's elements) plus
Breath of life ("spirit" of life from God) equals
A living person (a soul).

Genesis 2
New International Version
7 Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Nowhere does the Bible speak of the soul as an immortal entity capable of living apart from our body. Neither does it speak of the spirit as an entity which can exist independent of our physical nature. We are not made of independent parts temporarily connected, but of body, soul, and spirit in one indivisible whole.

Click to expand...

Really? How did Saul speak to Samuel after Samuel had died? (even though God used the witch...Saul knew it was Samuel)

How is Jesus speaking with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of transfiguration?

What does Paul mean here in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8:
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight—
8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
This is instantaneous action believers leave the body (die) and are immediately in the Lord's presence.

How about the martyrs in Revelation 6:9-11:
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
How are these martyrs in Christ presence, able to talk to Him if your premise is true?

How about what Jesus said of believers in John 10:27-28
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Do you believe "and they shall never perish" means "they shall never perish"?

How about what Jesus said to Martha when He raised Lazarus? John 11:24-27
24 Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 She *said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world.”
Do you notice how emphatic Jesus is by saying "he who believes in Me will live even if he dies and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die? Simply put...believers that die bodily, never die...they go into the Lord's presence.

eleos1954 said:

1 Thessalonians 5:23

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eleos1954 said:

Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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This is nothing more than threefold repetition of complete sanctification. It doesn't make your point. It's pretty much like the benediction God gave Aaron at Numbers 6:24-26 which said
24 The Lord bless you, and keep you;
25 The Lord make His face shine on you,
And be gracious to you;
26 The Lord lift up His countenance on you,
And give you peace.’

It's the same thing said 3 ways..and it doesn't make your point.

eleos1954 said:

Psalm 146:4

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eleos1954 said:

When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

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Do you notice this is only speaking of earthly? This doesn't make your case either, because you took it out of context. When you get the context, you get the picture which is Psalm 146: 3-4:
3 Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
Naturally the question would be ...Why? The answer is in the next verse:
4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

eleos1954 said:

Daniel 12:2

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eleos1954 said:

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life (1st resurrection), and some to shame and everlasting contempt (2nd resurrection).

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No.This is fulfilled in Matthew 27:45-53. Remember that Daniel 12 has to do with Daniel's people, who are the Jews. Daniel 12:1 makes the point.

eleos1954 said:

1st Timothy 6

16 He (God) alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

We do not become immortal until Jesus returns.

Click to expand...

Once again read John 11:24-27.

Philippians 1:21-23

When writing to the Philippians here, Paul was struggling with two desires. He wanted to be done with his fleshly life and be with Christ, but he also wanted to remain with God’s people.

In his second letter to Timothy he speaks dogmatically of what lies ahead, knowing the end of his physical life is near and he is ready to depart: “For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing” (2 Timothy 4:6-8).

Paul, then, understood that he was not to receive his reward immediately at death. He knew that if executed, he would go to the grave, and there his remains would lie until the time of his resurrection. He understood that, since the dead have no thought processes whatsoever, in his next waking moment he would be with the returning Messiah, Jesus, joining Him along with the other saints at the time of the resurrection.[/quote]
Once again...read Revelation 6:9-11. How are those martyrs in Jesus presence?

eleos1954 said:

Reaffirmed here again by Paul

1 Thessalonians

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

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Do you even notice that when it comes to believers Paul uses "sleep" as a metaphor for those believers who have left their bodies? He uses the term sleep because those who believe in Jesus never die.

John 11:25-26:
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Jesus makes it crystal clear believers "never die". I ask you what Jesus asked Martha...do you believe that???

ebedmelech said:

In fact he was being stoned...and He said "Lord receive my spirit"...because he knew he was about to die. Stephen knew where he was going...and even asked Jesus to forgive those stoning him.


Really? How did Saul speak to Samuel after Samuel had died? (even though God used the witch...Saul knew it was Samuel)

How is Jesus speaking with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of transfiguration?

What does Paul mean here in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8:
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight—
8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
This is instantaneous action believers leave the body (die) and are immediately in the Lord's presence.

How about the martyrs in Revelation 6:9-11:
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
How are these martyrs in Christ presence, able to talk to Him if your premise is true?

How about what Jesus said of believers in John 10:27-28
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Do you believe "and they shall never perish" means "they shall never perish"?

How is Jesus speaking with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of transfiguration?

How about what Jesus said to Martha when He raised Lazarus? John 11:24-27
24 Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 She *said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world.”
Do you notice how emphatic Jesus is by saying "he who believes in Me will live even if he dies and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die? Simply put...believers that die bodily, never die...they go into the Lord's presence.

This is nothing more than threefold repetition of complete sanctification. It doesn't make tour point. It's pretty much like the benediction God gave Aaron at Numbers 6:24-26 which said
24 The Lord bless you, and keep you;
25 The Lord make His face shine on you,
And be gracious to you;
26 The Lord lift up His countenance on you,
And give you peace.’

It's the same thing said 3 ways..and it doesn't make your point.

Do you notice this is only speaking of earthly? This doesn't make your case either, because you took it out of context. When you get the context, you get the picture which is Psalm 146: 3-4:
3 Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
Naturally the question would be ...Why? The answer is in the next verse:
4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

No.This is fulfilled in Matthew 27:45-53. Remember that Daniel 12 has to do with Daniel's people, who are the Jews. Daniel 12:1 makes the point.


Once again read John 11:24-27.

Philippians 1:21-23

When writing to the Philippians here, Paul was struggling with two desires. He wanted to be done with his fleshly life and be with Christ, but he also wanted to remain with God’s people.

In his second letter to Timothy he speaks dogmatically of what lies ahead, knowing the end of his physical life is near and he is ready to depart: “For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing” (2 Timothy 4:6-8).

Paul, then, understood that he was not to receive his reward immediately at death. He knew that if executed, he would go to the grave, and there his remains would lie until the time of his resurrection. He understood that, since the dead have no thought processes whatsoever, in his next waking moment he would be with the returning Messiah, Jesus, joining Him along with the other saints at the time of the resurrection.

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Once again...read Revelation 6:9-11. How are those martyrs in Jesus presence?


Do you even notice that when it comes to believers Paul uses "sleep" as a metaphor for those believers who have left their bodies? He uses the term sleep because those who believe in Jesus never die.

John 11:25-26:
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Jesus makes it crystal clear believers "never die". I ask you what Jesus asked Martha...do you believe that???[/QUOTE]

How is Jesus speaking with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of transfiguration?

Moses was resurrected, Elijah was translated.

There have been a few special resurrections/translations, but for the masses they wait in the grave until Jesus returns.

so, what about Lazarus, when Jesus resurrected Him from the tomb? Had he gone immediately to heaven? Did Jesus bring him back from the presence of God?

Martha .... John 11:24

24 Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

and yes ... I believe that also ..... at the last day, when Jesus returns.

When she was talking with Jesus she did not know he was going to resurrect Lazarus right then .... she did believe in the 1st resurrection ....at the last day

"How did Saul speak to Samuel after Samuel had died? (even though God used the witch...Saul knew it was Samuel)"

The bible is clear one is not to seek out mediums, witches etc. In fact, in the OT one found doing so was to be killed ... that's why Saul was sneaking around doing it ... he knew better.

Leviticus 19:31 “Don’t turn to psychics or mediums to get help. That will make you unclean. I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 20:27 “Every man or woman who is a medium or a psychic must be put to death. They must be stoned to death because they deserve to die.”

Leviticus 20:6 I will condemn people who turn to mediums and psychics and chase after them as though they were prostitutes. I will exclude them from the people.

1 Chronicles 10:13-14

13Saul died because he was unfaithful to the Lord; he did not keep the word of the Lord and even consulted a medium for guidance, 14 and did not inquire of the Lord. So the Lord put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.

But yet, you believe the Lord used the witch?

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

so ... are you ok with consulting mediums and witches?

eleos1954 said:

Once again...read Revelation 6:9-11. How are those martyrs in Jesus presence?


Do you even notice that when it comes to believers Paul uses "sleep" as a metaphor for those believers who have left their bodies? He uses the term sleep because those who believe in Jesus never die.

John 11:25-26:
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Jesus makes it crystal clear believers "never die". I ask you what Jesus asked Martha...do you believe that???

Click to expand...

eleos1954 said:

How is Jesus speaking with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of transfiguration?

Moses was resurrected, Elijah was translated.

There have been a few special resurrections/translations, but for the masses they wait in the grave until Jesus returns.

so, what about Lazarus, when Jesus resurrected Him from the tomb? Had he gone immediately to heaven? Did Jesus bring him back from the presence of God?

Martha .... John 11:24

24 Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

and yes ... I believe that also ..... at the last day, when Jesus returns.

When she was talking with Jesus she did not know he was going to resurrect Lazarus right then .... she did believe in the 1st resurrection ....at the last day

"How did Saul speak to Samuel after Samuel had died? (even though God used the witch...Saul knew it was Samuel)"

The bible is clear one is not to seek out mediums, witches etc. In fact, in the OT one found doing so was to be killed ... that's why Saul was sneaking around doing it ... he knew better.

Leviticus 19:31 “Don’t turn to psychics or mediums to get help. That will make you unclean. I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 20:27 “Every man or woman who is a medium or a psychic must be put to death. They must be stoned to death because they deserve to die.”

Leviticus 20:6 I will condemn people who turn to mediums and psychics and chase after them as though they were prostitutes. I will exclude them from the people.

1 Chronicles 10:13-14

13Saul died because he was unfaithful to the Lord; he did not keep the word of the Lord and even consulted a medium for guidance, 14 and did not inquire of the Lord. So the Lord put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.

But yet, you believe the Lord used the witch?

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

so ... are you ok with consulting mediums and witches?

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The point here is you couldn't refute my response. Now you want to spin my answers. I'm done with this.