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Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by katiemygirl, Jul 13, 2015.

  1. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. You totally misunderstand the context of Genesis 17:12 and the whole context of what was to be restored in this creation.
    These were gentile who were proselyted into the covenant. Apart from the Jewish nation which started with Abraham who was a born gentile from the Ur of the land of Shinar.
    The land specifically to the Jewish nation Genesis 15:18-21.
    1 Chronicles 28:1-8, 2 Samuel 7:13-16 deal specifically with the head of the nation through the Davidic covenant in the future.
    Even in Paul’s day talks about the gentiles had no covenant before the cross Ephesians 2:11-12; 2:14-15.

    2. Adam lost the physical kingdom they ruled because of sin. God will not rule with man without a holy heart.
    The spiritual rule was restored at Calvary even though everyone doesn’t get saved.
    The physical rule will not be restored until the future millennial kingdom Read Joel 2. The final restoration of all things will be the New Heaven and the New Earth permanently Revelation 21-22.

    3. The Jewish nations covenants were eternal and the gifts and callings are without repentance Romans 11:25-29.
    The church will be in the kingdom and rule and reign if they are saved.
    The Jewish nation and the church have the same requirement of being saved to rule with Christ. The difference is the specific ruler ship position. The Jewish nation at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4;9:6-9; Ezekiel 37:16-28 etc. The church will be rulers throughout the kingdom Revelation 5:10. Jerry kelso
  2. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. Those were gentiles proselyted into Judaism.

    2. For gentiles who were not proselyted into Judaism they will be judged by their conscience accoto Romans 2.

    3. God always has the spiritual rule in a holy heart first and foremost.

    4. Believing by faith and obedience have always been the case for every age.
    The difference is the revelation of the sacrifice.
    Even the apostles were saved because of believing in Jesus but not of the understanding of his death and resurrection because Jesus didn’t teach that.
    In Romans 6 the disciples didn’t understand what Jesus meant by eating his flesh and drinking his blood. This was after the nation had rejected him Matthew 23:37-39.
    Jesus rebuked Peter for not savoring the
    plan of God concerning his death. It wasn’t because he understood what he was saying that he was going to have to be crucified and rise again. Read Matthew 18:21-23.
    Like 24 records that Jesus had to expound to them about his death and resurrection after his resurrection and before he left this earth because they were still trying to figure it out.

    5. Israel’s covenants are unconditional concerning the physical kingdom rulership. However, they are conditional
    to enter in and that is the condition of salvation as a whole nation.
    Romans 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved. This is when they go through Jacob’s trouble Jeremiah 30:7; Daniel 12:1; Matthew 24:21 etc.
    And trust me if you or I or anyone else is not saved we will not be ruling and reigning with Christ in the kingdom either. Jerry Kelso
  3. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter


    The word "restored" does not appear in Genesis 17 in my Bible.
    The word "creation" does not appear in Genesis 17 in my Bible.
    The word "proselyted" does not appear in Genesis 17 in my Bible. A proselyte is one who has converted. Do you know of any eight-days-old males (verse 12) who converted?

    What bafflegab bible are you reading from?

    Here's what my Bible says:

    Genesis 17
    12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
    13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

    God said that Gentile circumcision would signify His inclusion of Gentiles under His Covenant.

    You deny His inclusion of Gentiles under His Covenant.

    I believe God.
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  4. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. I didn’t say restored was in Genesis 17.

    2. I didn’t say created was in Genesis 17.

    3. Kids that were Abraham’s in entirety that could not discern or use their will were automatically circumcised.
    Grown men could choose not to be circumcised and if they didn’t they were not to dwell with them.
    Proselytizing gentiles were more known under the Law of Moses. This is why Israel was to be nice to the stranger at the gate.
    These strangers that were circumcised were to do certain things such as not work on sabbath and not to work on the Day of atonement. But they could not minister or be King of Israel or share equal justice etc.
    The main point was that the gentile nations did not have a covenant made with them specifically as such as with Israel Ephesians 2:11-12; Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision in the flesh made by hands. That at that time ye we’re without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers of the covenants of promise, having no hope, and WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD!!!
    This is the context and point I was making.
    So I wasn’t saying there was no inclusion of gentiles to be included in the covenant of Abraham and the Mosaic law.
    Even in Acts 2:10 were proselytes on the Day of Pentecost. The New Covenant was in effect and the mystery of the Church of Jews and Gentiles in the body of Christ was ratified at Calvary Ephesians 2:14-15. However, it didn’t manifest till Peter had the vision of the clean and unclean Acts 10. Paul brings this out in Ephesians 3:2-6.
    I believe God and the context of his word. Jerry Kelso
  5. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. The great confrontation is between Satan and God.
    Genesis 1:2 is the earth in judgement and verse 3 starts the recreation with earth being restored and man being created who was told that he could eat of any tree except the tree of knowledge of good and evil and he sinned by partaking of it and was kicked out of the Garden and was not permitted to go back.
    In the plan of God and because of sin the physical land and spiritual rule had to be restored.
    God chose to use Israel to bring the Messiah who did bring salvation by way of the cross and the opportunity to be saved.
    The earth will not be restored until the millennial kingdom. Read Joel 2; Romans 8:22; Revelation 21:1-2.

    2. The Old covenant is abolished and the New covenant is in place Hebrews 8:6:7.
    The Old covenant was still in effect and not the New covenant for he was the New covenant and his blood is the remissions for sins Matthew 26:28; Hebrews 9:22 and happened at the cross for it took the death of the testator Hebrews 9:16-17.
    Jesus came to fulfill the law of Moses and not destroy it Matthew 5:17 and had to live the law of Moses and not sin to be the perfect and sinless sacrifice.
    If the law of Moses was abolished before the cross Jesus wouldn’t have said he came to fulfilled it and not destroy it.

    3. There is no argument of Herod’s position or Rome’s allowances.
    This didn’t have nothing to do with the validity of Christ offering the KoH physical. But the condition was believing in Christ as the Messiah to forgive their sins. Matthew 4:17.
    The death, burial and resurrection was always the goal but it came in types and shadows. Then the reality came and John and the prophets didn’t have to prophesy anymore Matthew 11:13 and Luke 16:16.
    I have already explained why Jesus didn’t teach his death and resurrection and if he would of they would have known it and want to have him crucified then.

    4. Romans 4:13 is the Abrahamic covenant for the church for it is the New covenant.
    The land and the ruler ship position at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4 ; 9:6-7; Ezekiel 37-20 for Israel.
    The church will have rulership positions throughout the Kingdom Revelation 5:9-10.

    5. I’ve already proven the physical rule and spiritual rule in man’s heart.
    Matthew 28:18 was not the beginning of the millennial kingdom.
    That is an allegorical interpretation and is not hermeneutically sound.

    6. Melchizedek was an actual human that was a priest of Salem which is another discussion.

    7. You don’t understand the proper context of Romans 2:28-29 which starts back at verse 17 to the Jew that rests in the law of Moses instead of the New covenant and was blaspheming the name of God among the Gentiles...
    Circumcision profits only if the law is kept. If it is broken then it is made uncircumcision or a sinner.
    If the uncircumcision (gentiles) keep the righteousness of the Mosaic law then they become the circumcised which is accepted by God.
    Even if the gentiles keep the laws of nature which is contained in the law of Moses and the Jews are being hypocritical by sinning then they are breaking the law and not the gentile.
    We are all on the same level at the cross. Even Ezekiel 18 shows that Israel thought it is was wrong for God to save the gentile and not save the Jew just because they were under the Mosaic law and to whom were given the oracles of God Romans 3:1-2.
    Romans 2:28-29 is showing God is no respect of persons.
    The spiritual rule is inside the heart and not the outward flesh who had the covenants.
    Circumcision of the heart is under the New covenant and not the letter of the Mosaic law.
    This has nothing to do with the gifts and calling of Israel in the Kingom of Heaven reign. Paul was not trying to establish a whole new doctrine of the spiritual Jew doctrine that many purport.
    The point is to the Jew of how to be a true Jew and that God is no respect of persons under the Old or the New covenant. This is the true context. It has nothing to do with the spiritual Jew theory that does away with Israel’s earthly calling and has the church taking their place.

    8. I’ve already shown that Israel’s covenants are unconditional 1 Chronicles 28:1-8; 2 Samuel 7:13-16; Isaiah 2:2-4; Ezekiel 37-16-28; Romans 11:25-29 which means that it will happen. It is conditioned by salvation and it will happen Romans 11:25-29.
    So your breaking the covenant and the other party not having to honor it is not scriptural.

    9. The death of the testator was when Christ said, it is finished and Jesus gave up the ghost. We agree on this. This didn’t happen in Jesus earthly ministry. Hebrews 9:6-7. Jerry Kelso
  6. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter


    Genesis 17
    13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
    14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

    God's injunction was applicable to all Israelite male children, not just Abraham's.
    At eight days of age, none could discern or use their will, yet God automatically extended His covenant impartially to all, Gentile and Jew alike.

    Same as all other Israelites.

    Only the tribe of Levi could minister; all other tribes were prohibited. Otherwise, Gentiles were granted all of the covenant blessings and benefits of other Israelites (Levites excepted).

    Exodus 12:48
    And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

    Exodus 12:49
    One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

    The word “nations” does not appear in Ephesians 2. Paul was addressing the believing Gentiles within the Ephesian church, describing their spiritual condition as individuals before they believed. That condition had nothing to do with any national covenants or absence thereof, but rather with their neglect or refusal to avail themselves, as individuals, of the covenant that God had extended in totality to Gentiles long ago, at the dawn of covenant history, in Genesis 17:12.

    That condition was resolved in Christ.
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  7. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. All males had to be circumcised if they
    Were to be in the covenant of Abraham.
    Children of Abraham were automatically by virtue of no will of their own or power to discern were automatically circumcised.
    Males had a choice who were strangers and either were in or out.
    The real homeborn had to be circumcised but if they rejected they would not be a part of the covenant.

    2. The word nations does not have to be in Ephesians 2. You should know the gentile nations is talking about the race of gentiles had no covenant such as the Jews God’s people.
    Otherwise, gentiles would have circumcision among themselves as a sign of the covenant.
    This is why the stranger at the gate had be circumcised if they were prosecuted into the covenant.
    Paul was talking to gentile believers at Ephesus. As gentiles they had no co covenant and was alien to the commonwealth of Israel who had the covenants.
    The KoH message was never taught to the church concerning Israel’s earthly calling.
    What is preached to the church is the KoG in the Holy Ghost which is love, joy and peace.
    We are translated into the kingdom of his dear son which is spiritual salvation.

    3. The Levites ministered in the holy of Holies concerning sacrifices.
    Jesus was not a Levite and many other of the Jewish leaders but they did minister in the temple. Two different things.

    4. The physical restoration of the earth is future and deals with the nation of Israel. The church is a heavenly people and will also have rulership positions throughout the earthly kingdom but not the same as Israel which will be at head of the nations on earth with David as King and Christ the overall potentate. The feasts will be administered by Israel, from Israel in the millennial kingdom after the tribulation. The millennial reign has not begun because the King is not physically here and has not taken over the kingdoms of this world Revelation 11:15. Jerry Kelso
  8. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    Indeed the “great confrontation” is Satan trying to usurp God. Satan deceived Eve and “the fall” occurred. What was lost in “the fall” was the innocence of Adam and Eve in their sin. The curse of the creation was pronounced by God.

    As for the earth being restored in a millennial kingdom….indeed not! Heaven and earth are restored after the final judgment. Revelation 21 is after the millennial reign, which is going on since Christ was raised. It’s in Revelation 20.

    Never said the Law of Moses was abolished before the cross. Christ fulfilled it for us. The Law is written on the heart Jerry.

    Jesus said “repent for the KOH is at hand”. Christ came to His own, which was Israel. You miss the point because you’re hung up on this KOH/KOG fallacy. Bottom line is Israel rejected their Messiah…their Passover Lamb Jerry. Keep it simple! Israel expected a Messiah, but because Jesus didn’t come according to their rules, they missed out, except the remnant.

    This idea Jesus didn’t speak on His death burial and resurrection is incorrect. Ever read John 10? Jesus clearly speaks of Himself as “The good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep”, who could lay down His life and take it up again.

    I showed the Abrahamic covenant in the Old and New Covenants…you show me the difference.

    The problem is you’re not the authority Jerry….scripture is.

    You can think Melchizedek was human…but try reading what Hebrews 7 has to say. Granted, Christians debate this, but count me with the camp that believes He was preincarnate Christ.

    I’ll hold to what I read and understand from scripture Jerry. The point of Romans 2 is the Gentile and the Jew are both under sin and need Christ as Savoir…and I’m a Jew inwardly, with a circumcised heart, of the Seed of Abraham, which is Christ!

    You can get the thrust of it by reading the first 3 verses Jerry! No one is without sin, and everyone who comes to Christ has a circumcised heart. They're Jews inwardly...like me.

    Really? Ever read Deuteronomy 28 Jerry? God doesn’t think it’s unconditional there. They all are not.

    How does that matter though? The point is Jesus instituted the New Covenant…and then went to the cross.
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter


    Same for the Gentiles.

    How to identify a dispensational interpretation: The subject does not include the subject.

    You err in claiming that God's Covenant was with the Israelite nation. Israel was always comprised of two groups, the faithful and obedient, and the unfaithful and disobedient. The latter group invariably ended up prematurely dead. God slew them by the thousands when they rebelled and forsook Him. Unfortunately, there were always others to replace them.

    God's Covenant was not with the unfaithful disobedient dead.

    God's Covenant was with the faithful obedient living.

    His believing remnant within the nation.

    They did when they, like all other Israelites, submitted to the requisites of the Old Covenant while it was still in effect. Thereafter, their covenant was in Christ, and circumcision was of no further significance.

    They did when they, like all other Israelites, submitted to the requisites of the Old Covenant while it was still in effect. Thereafter, their covenant was in Christ, and circumcision was of no further significance.

    Jesus and His disciples identified the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven as one and the same. (Matthew 19:23,24; Matthew 3:2; Matthew 4:17; Mark 1:14,15)
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  10. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. The strangers were gentiles.
    The gentiles outside of the Jewish nation had no personal covenant with God during the law and Paul said this in Ephesians 2:12 in the Dispensation of the Grace of God Ephesians 3:2.

    2. Some disobedient were killed and destroyed. But all of them were not always obedient and lived. King David was disobedient and even broke specific laws that were worthy of death, namely King David who committed adultery and murder.
    They had trespass offerings and once a year the High Priest offered a sacrifice for the nation’s sins.
    This is why Israel had to live the law perfectly to be blessed. Deuteronomy records this.
    The disobedient being cutoff as in Zechariah 13:9 and the obedient remnant always saved as in Isaiah 1:9; Revelation 11:13;12:17.
    The obedience kept and not the disobedient proves my point that God will not rule with man without a holy heart and without holiness no man shall see the Lord. And if you remain disobedient you cannot rule the physical kingdom reign on earth. This relates back to the garden when Adam and Eve sinned, they lost the physical and spiritual kingdoms.

    3. The Jews kept the law, but not perfectly and they killed Jesus.
    It was never prophesied that the Jews would accept Christ and they did’t Matthew 23:37-39.
    The church was ordained of God and was not a plan B as the spiritual Jew theorists say.
    The circumcision was the sign of the law and did not save because it was a type and the New Covenant of the cross is circumcision of the heart.

    4. Matthew 19:23; verse 23 is talking about the physical kingdom. Daniel 7:27 the Kingdom under the whole of Heaven; Matthew 13 shows the parable of the tares and wheat show the KoH being physical. Matthew 19:28 shows the KoH being physical. This was the physical goal that Jesus taught which is different than Matthew 6:33 seek the KoG for righteousness of the law. and Luke 17:20-21...the KoG cometh without observation and is within you which is salvation.
    Also, Luke 1:32-33; Gabriel tells Mary that Jesus will be given the throne of his father David and shall reign over the house of Jacob which is Israel forever and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
    Vs. 70-75 Zachariah prophesies about the Messiah and coming for the physical kingdom.
    The Lord’s Prayer talks about the physical kingdom in Matthew 11.

    5. Matthew 19:24; is based on vs 16 in seeking eternal life. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the KoG which the spiritual aspect of the KoG.
    The next verse follows with the question who then can be saved?
    What’s impossible with men is possible with God.
    Verse 27 has Peter telling Jesus they had forsaken all, unlike the rich man. Jesus says he’ll remember the ones who had followed him in the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of his glory they will sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    6. Matthew 3:2 and 4:17 are both the physical kingdom KoH reign on earth.
    Mark 1:14-15; the KoG is at hand is spiritual aspect of salvation which relates to repenting and believing the gospel.
    Jerry kelso
  11. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. Innocence was lost because of sin.
    Knowledge of good and evil because of sin.
    The sinless state was lost because of sin and death would come.
    God had to kick them out of the Garden of Eden because of sin.
    Adam lost the physical rule in the sinless state.
    The curse on the land brought the thorns and thistles and he would have to work by the sweat of his brow.
    The curse of creation was pronounced by God and still has to be renovated as well as the animal life Isaiah 11:6-9. Romans 8:22.
    Joel 2:21-27 is the restoration for the millennial kingdom concerning the formers and latter rains. This is all connected with Israel’s transformation and placed at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4.
    Final renovation after the millennium will be the New Heaven and the New Earth 2 Peter 3:10-13; Hebrews 1:10-12; Romans 8:21; Revelation 21.

    2. The divine image lost was regained by the new creation 2 Corinthians 5:17; Colossians 3:10; Ephesians 4:23-24.

    3. Revelation 20 is the 1000 years which is the millennial kingdom when Satan is bound and there will be peace. This is before the final restoration because sin and rebellion must be put down and the war of Gog and Magog will be destroyed and sin and death will be destroyed and sinners will be thrown into the lake of fire where Satan is thrown into a thousand years later where the antichrist beast and false will have already been there 1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Revelation 20.

    4. Matthew 10:6-7 the KoH and the KoG message was to be preached to Israel alone. Gentiles didn’t know this message unless they were prosyleted into Judaism.

    5. John 10 he did mention that he would lay down his life for the sheep and take it up again but this caused division and confusion and the leaders thought he was mad and had a Devil, but they had no idea what he was talking about.
    The point of the parable was to bring the sheep together as one fold which was Judah and Israel.
    Jesus also said to the leaders destroy this temple and I will raise it up in three days. They thought he meant the physical temple.
    John 6 he said eat my flesh and drink my blood and even the disciples didn’t understand stand him. He said will you go away like the other 70?
    Peter said no Lord only you have the words of eternal life.
    In Matthew 18:31-34 the disciples never understood his death, burial and resurrection and this was after his rejection by the nation for this saying was hidden from them.
    If the disciples didn’t know after Israel’s rejection of the KoH and the KoG message, then how would they know during his ministry? Especially if it was hidden from the disciples who were given the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven Matthew 13. Impossible! Jesus never told the Jewish people directly or specifically to believe in his death and resurrection to be saved.

    6. The Abrahamic is about the earthly families being blessed and it has s also connected to the millennial physical kingdom which I have already proved by scripture. Salvation is also in the Abrahamic covenant for the church today which is Jews and Gentiles in one body alike.
    The callings of the Jewish nation is different from the church age saints and yes their are parts of the Abrahamic covenant concerning the land that is connected to the Davidic covenant.
    Israel has to be purged by Jacob’s trouble not the church Jeremiah 30:7; Daniel 9:24; Matthew 24:21; Revelation 12:13-17; 15:2-4.
    The church is being purified now 2 Timothy 2:12; if ye suffer ye shall reign is in the Church age.

    7. Scripture is authority and you do not understand the context of the scripture and how to make them harmonize together.

    8. Melchizedek was human priest from Salem. Hebrews 1:1-2. A human man v4.
    He had no record of genealogy etc. so he could be a type of Jesus eternal priesthood Hebrews 7:3,6; Micah 5:2;Isaiah 9:6-7; John 1:1-2; Hebrews 1:8. So he was a man and not the pre- incarnate Christ.

    9. Ebedlemech, I have no problem you calling yourself a Jew inwardly or any other gentile Christian under the New Covenant.
    But that is not the main point in the context and surely not the reason to establish a brand new doctrine such as the extreme spiritual Jew theory that doses away with Israel’s calling and puts the church in its place or altogether as the same. That is improper hermeneutics and wrongly dividing the word.

    10. The blessings of Deuteronomy was unconditional to happen but based on obedience to the law.
    This is the same basic principle as that the Abrahamic and was he Davidic covenants are unconditional in the fact that they will come to pass without fail. It is based on obedience when they obey and this is why their gifts and callings are without repentance Romans 11:29.

    11. The New Covenant did happen at the cross and the Jews members of the church. The gentiles came in later after Peter got the vision of the clean and unclean. Then the Jews rejected Paul’s message and he left the Jess and went to the gentiles and started his gentile ministry.
    A.D. 70 Israel was destroyed as a result of Matthew 24:1-2. It has been backslider ever since and is today and will be until their purification process during Jacob’s trouble which will lead Israel to repentance so they can enter their position of authority in the Kingdom of Heaven reign.
    This proves they are still backslidden and that they will enter the New Covenant
    to fulfill Jeremiah 31:31-36; Hebrews 8:7-13.

    12. The New Covenant had to come pass before the nation could enter the Millennial Kingdom of Heaven reign. In Jesus day they were still under the law of Moses.
    Since the DOP the church has been the one designated to make Israel jealous in this age in order for the nation to come back to God Romans 11.
    Unfortunately, that will not happen and we will be raptured to Heaven 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Revelation 4:1; receive rewards for our works in Heaven 1Corinthians 3:12-15; Revelation 11:18, and be at the Marriage of the Lamb Revelation 19:7-10.
    This is why we must be raptured at the beginning and the Jews will have to go through Jacob’s trouble which the church has nothing to do with.
    At the end of Jacob’s trouble the last of the Jewish martyrs will be raptured to Heaven when they are resurrected in the first resurrection only Revelation 15:1-2; 20:4-6. This will happen right before the vials are poured out Revelation 15:1-2.
    The vials are reserved only for the beast worshippers Revelation 16:2. Jerry Kelso
  12. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    And who made up the church on the day of Pentecost? Take note of Acts 2:5; Acts 2:9; Acts 2:14.

    Acts 2 BSB
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
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  13. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    Who were the disciples? Weren't they Jewish? Didn't Paul make it clear that he was Jewish? What about the 3,000 that believed at Pentecost?

    The early church was made up of nothing except Jews in the beginning. The first Gentile believer wasn't until Cornelius, the centurion (mentioned in Acts 10) which raised the question as to whether or not a new believer needed to first convert to *Judaism* in order to be accepted into the church. If there were NO Jews accepting Christ, that wouldn't have ever been a question that was up for debate in the council @ Jerusalem (described in Acts 15). Cornelius the Centurion
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  14. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    Jerry, you seem to like to dodge that which nails your ideas to the wall. When you don't have an answer, you move to something else, which leads to basically going around in circles. Then you want to try and teach Sunday school. When you're ready to deal with one thing at a time and stay on point...perhaps we can debate something logically...but I really have things more profitable to my walk with the Lord than this.
  15. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    He is talking about the leadership and the majority of Jews...they did not accept him as Messiah.
  16. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. The Jews left over from Jesus ministry and some proselyted from Rome.

    2. That is not the point.
    The disciples asked Jesus if he would restore the Kingdom in Acts 1:6-7. He said it wasn’t for them to know and he didn’t know. Only the Father knew.
    This proves Jesus offered the Kingdom of Heaven physical but they rejected him. Matthew 4:17 and Matthew 23:37-39.
    This also shows they were not offered the Kingdom on the Day of Pentecost.

    3. The point is that the Church age had started and the Kingdom couldn’t be consummated because the church had to grow and include the gentiles so they could make the Jewish nation jealous for God Romans 11:11.
    The gentiles manifesting in the mystery of the Church wasn’t until 7-10 years later when Peter had the vision of the clean and unclean in Acts 10 and later in Ephesians 2:14-15 when Paul was into his gentile ministry concerning the church.
    You have to understand gradual revelation. Jerry Kelso
  17. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. You don’t understand the big picture and you cannot and have not answered to the scriptures I have given.

    2. I answered to your objections and scriptures but you cannot answer to mine.
    Romans 2 you couldn’t refute and all you could do is disagree and say you would stay with what you understood. Well, I agreed with the part you understood. We can be called spiritual Jesus for we have had the circumcision of the heart. But the other part of the spiritual Jew theory is a whole doctrine that takes away the earthly calling of Israel and puts the Church age saints in their place in the KoH reign on earth and you cannot prove it by scripture. You are free to believe whatever you want but give the whole truth of a context and not just the part you understand. That is improper handling of rightly dividing the word. Jerry Kelso
  18. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter


    Nothing to do with a physical kingdom.

    Acts 1
    6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
    7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    The times and/or seasons are associated with the day of the Lord, which is the end of all things temporal.

    1 Thessalonians 5
    1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

    2 Peter 3
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    There's no restored Israelitish kingdom in an incinerated universe.

    The disciples understood, and pressed Jesus no further.

    So did everyone else in the historical true Christian Church for over eighteen centuries.
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  19. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought


    1. The restoration of the Kingdom of Heaven reign is all through the Old Testament.
    I have already explained the beginning to the end about the 1000 years millennial kingdom.

    2. The times and seasons refer to the Day of the Lord and the specific Day of the Lord known as the Second advent which will be at Armageddon Revelation 16:16 is tied to 2 Thessalonians 5:1-2, the beginning of the Day of the Lord not 2 Peter 3:7-10 which is at the end of the Day of the Lord and the Beginning of the Day of God when the Son gives the kingdom back to the Father 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

    3. 2 Peter 3:10 is the renovation on the actual Day of the Lord which comes like a thief 2 Peter 3:7-10.
    The Day of the Lord will end after the 1000 years, the final rebellion, and will be during the Great White Throne Judgement.

    4. The Heaven’s (atmospheric Heaven’s and the earth will be renovated by fire. This is purification by fire of the physical state, not annihilation of the planet.
    The works are burned up are all the basic present world system of evil spirits, sinful and fallen nature, disease, germs, corruptions and all elements by which men corrupt themselves. 2 Peter 3:11-12.
    The Greek word is parerchomai, translated pass away and doesn’t mean to terminate out of existence or annihilation.
    It means to pass from one condition of existence to another.
    The Genesis 1:2 flood didn’t put the earth out of existence units watery bath and neither will the fire of purification.

    5. Peter divides the history of the earth into 3 periods.
    The period before it was made form and without void Genesis 1:1. He called it the world that then was in 2 Peter 5-6; the present world which he calls the Heaven’s and the earth which are now and the New Heaven and the New Earth which is yet future 2 Peter 3:5-7,13; Dispensational Truth Clarence Larkin Parenthetical Dispensation between the millennium and the New Earth pg. 145.

    6. The true church? It depends who you think the true church was. Jerry Kelso
  20. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    Are you saying the disciples rejected Jesus (and also all the believers - who happened to be Jewish - at Pentecost)? I just want to clarify your use of "they".