Charles Robert Darwin

USincognito · May 26, 2019

Tone said:
So, evolution is entropy? So, is our education system and occupations moving towards or away from entropy?

What does the amount of energy available for work have to do with either evolution or the educational system?

Tone · May 26, 2019

USincognito said:
What does the amount of energy available for work have to do with either evolution or the educational system?

You don't know?

AV1611VET · May 26, 2019

USincognito said:
What does the amount of energy available for work have to do with either evolution or the educational system?

Doesn't the ATP molecule convert energy into work?

TLK Valentine · May 26, 2019

Tone said:
Yes, the Messiah Himself used much agrarian imagery.

The Messiah's imagery was all over the place...whatever it took to get the message across.

But, think about this...if He is indeed the Creator...well then, He created the vegetation first and then us...so, yeah,He would know the most fitting way to describe what His Kingdom is like.

And yet, the fact that He had to use imagery and poetic language at all means that even He couldn't do it justice... human language just isn't up to the task.

Again, I don't care how good a musician you are, you can't play Beethoven on a kazoo and expect it to be as good as a full orchestra.

Consider this also, the terminology for agriculture, biology, and linguistics are all very similar...why is that? (Linguistic Apologetics)

I'm sorry, was that link supposed to support your assertion?

Just like it says, "Men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit [Holy Breath of God]."

Do you agree that words are extremely powerful?

But of course.

Where do you think we obtained the capacity to speak?

I think it was evolution via natural selection.

But more interesting than the where is the how... the details of that are (for the moment) something of a mystery... but remember what I said about mysteries?

That is the whole point. "Mere mortals" speak these words from the Creator...how else do you explain their power?

The same way I'd explain the power of the words of Homer, Ovid, Shakespeare, Twain, Churchill, Kennedy, King, X, etc...

But let us remember that such power can be used for evil as well as good -- how can you explain the power behind the words of Napoleon, Davis, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, McCarthy, bin Laden, and of course, the most infamous huckster of all, Lucifer?*

*After all, Christian tradition says that not only did Lucifer rebel, he took 1/3 of the heavenly host with him... that must've been one heckuva sales pitch... don't you think?

Isn't that the message of the Messiah Himself...that He came down from above to speak and dwell among us...the Word become flesh?

Again, what "Word"? divine Logos, or The Bible?

No, this is why the Son said:

<snip>

But Messiah did "encapsulate" everything that is necessary for a relationship with the Father.

Indeed he did. John 13:34 "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."

Now, getting back to the OP for a moment... is there anything in His instructions that rules out Darwin or evolution?

I think not. The challenge for Theistic Evolutionists

Though they have crossed in this forum, and not without reason.

This may be so. There's a reason I like Proverbs 27:17.

Feel free to share your findings!

I have in the past... please not that this is only preliminary:

If the Bible is not literally/historically "true", then why is it special?

"Word" as in:

The Hebrew noun דבר (davar, Strong's #1697) is translated as "word." It is derived from the parent root דר (DR), which means "order." The verb form of דבר (davar) is דבר (D.B.R, Strong's #1696) and is commonly found in the Biblical text meaning to "speak," as in the phrase vayidaber YHWH el moshe l'mor (and YHWH spoke to Moses saying). The ancient Hebrew understanding of "speaking," or a "speech," is an ordered arrangement of words.

The noun דבר (davar) is a masculine noun. The feminine form of this word is דברה (devorah) and is the name Deborah, but also means "bee." A bee hive is a colony of insects that live in a perfectly ordered society...

...The verb דבר (D.B.R) may better be translated as "order" as in the phrase "And YHWH gave orders to Moses saying". A commanding officer has formulated his action plans and has determined the best means to have these plans carried out. Once all of this is determined, he gives his "orders" to his troops. These orders are "an ordered arrangement"."
Hebrew Word Definitions - Word

Great -- now put the concordances down and tell me what it means.

Thank you...and to use a phrase I picked up from the Catholics, "and also with you"!

I miss that! They don't say it in Mass anymore!

Tone · May 26, 2019

USincognito said:
What does the amount of energy available for work have to do with either evolution or the educational system?

What I was getting at way back then was the idea that we should be working towards order, right? But, is that what is actually occurring? Evolution is chaotic...correct? How much of this evolutionary thinking is responsible for the "advances" that are leading to disorder?

Tone · May 26, 2019

TLK Valentine said:
The Messiah's imagery was all over the place...whatever it took to get the message across.

Examples?

TLK Valentine said:
And yet, the fact that He had to use imagery and poetic language at all means that even He couldn't do it justice... human language just isn't up to the task.

Again, I don't care how good a musician you are, you can't play Beethoven on a kazoo and expect it to be as good as a full orchestra.

Do what justice? Well, He did say that He spoke according to what people would be able to perceive, e.g.:

John 3
"11Truly, truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, and yet you people do not accept our testimony. 12If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?"

Mark 4
"11He replied, “The mystery of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to those on the outside, everything is expressed in parables, 12so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven.’” 13Then Jesus said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? Then how will you understand any of the parables?"

TLK Valentine said:
I'm sorry, was that link supposed to support your assertion?

Yeah, try posts #s 44 and 45.

TLK Valentine said:
I think it was evolution via natural selection.

But more interesting than the where is the how... the details of that are (for the moment) something of a mystery... but remember what I said about mysteries?

Well, the simple answer is He Speaks and He created us to speak.

TLK Valentine said:
The same way I'd explain the power of the words of Homer, Ovid, Shakespeare, Twain, Churchill, Kennedy, King, X, etc...

But let us remember that such power can be used for evil as well as good -- how can you explain the power behind the words of Napoleon, Davis, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, McCarthy, bin Laden, and of course, the most infamous huckster of all, Lucifer?*

*After all, Christian tradition says that not only did Lucifer rebel, he took 1/3 of the heavenly host with him... that must've been one heckuva sales pitch... don't you think?

Yeah, as the Bible says:

Proverbs 18:21
"21Life and death are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruit. "

TLK Valentine said:
Indeed he did. John 13:34 "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."

Now, getting back to the OP for a moment... is there anything in His instructions that rules out Darwin or evolution?

I think not. The challenge for Theistic Evolutionists

Well, you quoted John 13:34. Does "survival of the fittest" involve laying down one's life for his friends?

TLK Valentine said:
This may be so. There's a reason I like Proverbs 27:17.

Good one.

TLK Valentine said:
Great -- now put the concordances down and tell me what it means.

What what means?

TLK Valentine · May 26, 2019

Tone said:
Examples?

Examples of every non-agrarian metaphor and parable Jesus used? Seriously?

Do what justice? Well, He did say that He spoke according to what people would be able to perceive,

Right -- but not just perceive... conceive. If we can't conceive it, we certainly don't have the language to accurately describe it.

Jesus needed to be figurative because you simply can't put the "God" idea into "human" speech without losing a lot in the translation.

Well, the simple answer is He Speaks and He created us to speak.

And the simple answer to where babies come from is a stork.

Sadly, simplicity is no substitute for accuracy.

Yeah, as the Bible says:

Proverbs 18:21
"21Life and death are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruit. "

And the Bible is correct -- words have the power to enhance life or end it, depending on how they are used.

Well, you quoted John 13:34. Does "survival of the fittest" involve laying down one's life for his friends?

Yes. one/a few die so that the rest are saved.

Why do you think so many animals travel in herds?

Good one.

Thank you.

What what means?

"Word" of God, of course.

Tone · May 26, 2019

TLK Valentine said:
Right -- but not just perceive... conceive. If we can't conceive it, we certainly don't have the language to accurately describe it.

Jesus needed to be figurative because you simply can't put the "God" idea into "human" speech without losing a lot in the translation.

Are there any historical writings as old as or older than the Bible that employ this kind of language?

TLK Valentine said:
And the simple answer to where babies come from is a stork.

Sadly, simplicity is no substitute for accuracy.

I wouldn't see that as simple at all. That would just be absurd, because any observation of creation will tell you that "kind produces like kind". When I say "simple" I, by no means, mean inaccurate or unsophisticated (though I know the word has developed this connotation).

TLK Valentine said:
Yes. one/a few die so that the rest are saved.

Why do you think so many animals travel in herds?

But would the strongest die for the weakest?

TLK Valentine said:
"Word" of God, of course.

"דבר
The verb דבר (dabar) means to formalize: to deliberately establish and pronounce something's name or definition. This causes the thing to become "real" in the mind of whoever understands this word, name or definition, and this in turn explains why all of creation was spoken into being. This principle sits at the base of nominal reasoning and thus human awareness and ultimately Information Technology.

Noun דבר (dabar) means word. It also means "thing" since the naming of a thing causes the experienced reality of the thing. All thus created "things" together form the whole of experienceable reality, which in turn is called the Word of God.

Noun דבר (deber) describes any deadly pestilence, which is a "word" that breaks unstable compounds apart. In nature this occurs via the Weak Nuclear Force. The ability of unstable compounds to break apart sits at the heart of all progress and thus all reality.

The rare noun דבר (dober), refers to a pasture; probably a well defined fenced-in field upon which sheep graze. Figuratively this word obviously refers to some specific Holy Book from which a community feeds (the books of the Bible originated as separate works, with their separate adherers). Noun דברה (dibra) means matter or issue, and the similar noun דבורה (deborah) describes the bee (this probably because bees make honey, and "milk and honey" denote essential sustenance). The noun דביר (debir) was a nickname for the Holy of Holies and means "place of the word".

The noun מדבר (midbar) literally means "place of wording" and is used once to mean mouth and 270 times to mean wilderness, and because a wilderness is a place without cultivation, any cultivation needs to spring up in a wilderness. And anybody serious about the quest for true insight needs to leave the culture (or religion) of his heritage behind and spend a stint in the uncharted wild. All major players in the Bible did so."
The amazing name Dabar-YHWH: meaning and etymology

Tone · May 26, 2019

TLK Valentine said:
"Word" of God, of course.

This too:

"Our word דבר (dabar) specifically refers to the careful definition of anything that allows that item / situation / feeling to be discussed or even remotely experienced by people that have no intrinsic relation to it. HAW Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament reports that the King James Bible uses more than 110 different English words and expressions to translate this one Hebrew word דבר (dabar).

Theology is not the study of God for the very simple reason that God can not be observed (Exodus 33:20). The word "theology" is as unfortunate a word as "psychology," which is also not the study of the psyche also because the psyche has no properties that can be measured (the human psyche has no size, weight, taste, smell). That means that psychology can only study the effects of whatever the psyche might be, and those are summed up by the behavior of people. That's why psychology is the study of human behavior; the study of what people do (whatever a "person" might be). Theology, likewise, is the study of the behavior of God; the study of what God does (whatever "God" might be). That is why Paul could write that "since the creation of the world his invisible attributes, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made."

Theology is the Study of Everything. Unlike popular myth, the unity of the original singularity was never compromised and the universe is still One. Scientists call this oneness "symmetry" and speak of a Theory Of Everything that would describe the ultimate symmetry of the whole of reality. The ancients called it the Word of YHWH. The only difference is that science believes that the Theory Of Everything is essentially an abstraction, whereas the ancients believed that the Word is a living being. Here at Abarim Publications we respect both positions, but we bet that science and ancients will one day meet in the understanding that while DNA, like the Theory Of Everything, is essentially a bunch of data that allows a bunch of algorithms to execute, it's still the informational foundation of a very living being."
דבר | Abarim Publications Theological Dictionary (Old Testament Hebrew)

Tone · May 26, 2019

Tone said:
What I was getting at way back then was the idea that we should be working towards order, right? But, is that what is actually occurring? Evolution is chaotic...correct? How much of this evolutionary thinking is responsible for the "advances" that are leading to disorder?

Very interesting:

"The masculine noun דבר (deber), meaning pestilence. This very common word is used nearly always in the sense of punishment sent by God as a result of sin (1 Kings 8:37, Psalm 91:3, Jeremiah 14:12), and although this word seems at odds with this otherwise very happy root, it must be understood that any sort of progress goes hand in hand with a breaking apart — from chewing food to radio activity to disproving a beloved theorem. No human can ever escape the rudiments of his character which were formed in his first few years of life. If people wouldn't die, their incomplete or damaged world views would never be transcended. Now parents pass their legacies on to their children while their follies are erased by their deaths. Even our word science comes from the Greek word σχιζω (schizo), which means to split or divide."
דבר | Abarim Publications Theological Dictionary (Old Testament Hebrew)

TLK Valentine · May 27, 2019

Tone said:
Are there any historical writings as old as or older than the Bible that employ this kind of language?

Are you asking if any literature older than the Bible ever used figurative language?

I wouldn't see that as simple at all. That would just be absurd, because any observation of creation will tell you that "kind produces like kind". When I say "simple" I, by no means, mean inaccurate or unsophisticated (though I know the word has developed this connotation).

But would the strongest die for the weakest?

"strongest" and "weakest" in what way?

"דבר
The verb דבר (dabar) means to formalize: to deliberately establish and pronounce something's name or definition. This causes the thing to become "real" in the mind of whoever understands this word, name or definition, and this in turn explains why all of creation was spoken into being. This principle sits at the base of nominal reasoning and thus human awareness and ultimately Information Technology.

Noun דבר (dabar) means word. It also means "thing" since the naming of a thing causes the experienced reality of the thing. All thus created "things" together form the whole of experienceable reality, which in turn is called the Word of God.

Noun דבר (deber) describes any deadly pestilence, which is a "word" that breaks unstable compounds apart. In nature this occurs via the Weak Nuclear Force. The ability of unstable compounds to break apart sits at the heart of all progress and thus all reality.

The rare noun דבר (dober), refers to a pasture; probably a well defined fenced-in field upon which sheep graze. Figuratively this word obviously refers to some specific Holy Book from which a community feeds (the books of the Bible originated as separate works, with their separate adherers). Noun דברה (dibra) means matter or issue, and the similar noun דבורה (deborah) describes the bee (this probably because bees make honey, and "milk and honey" denote essential sustenance). The noun דביר (debir) was a nickname for the Holy of Holies and means "place of the word".

The noun מדבר (midbar) literally means "place of wording" and is used once to mean mouth and 270 times to mean wilderness, and because a wilderness is a place without cultivation, any cultivation needs to spring up in a wilderness. And anybody serious about the quest for true insight needs to leave the culture (or religion) of his heritage behind and spend a stint in the uncharted wild. All major players in the Bible did so."
The amazing name Dabar-YHWH: meaning and etymology

Hiding behind jargon is not an answer. What. Do. You. Mean?

TLK Valentine · May 27, 2019

Tone said:
This too:

"Our word דבר (dabar) specifically refers to the careful definition of anything that allows that item / situation / feeling to be discussed or even remotely experienced by people that have no intrinsic relation to it. HAW Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament reports that the King James Bible uses more than 110 different English words and expressions to translate this one Hebrew word דבר (dabar).

Theology is not the study of God for the very simple reason that God can not be observed (Exodus 33:20). The word "theology" is as unfortunate a word as "psychology," which is also not the study of the psyche also because the psyche has no properties that can be measured (the human psyche has no size, weight, taste, smell). That means that psychology can only study the effects of whatever the psyche might be, and those are summed up by the behavior of people. That's why psychology is the study of human behavior; the study of what people do (whatever a "person" might be). Theology, likewise, is the study of the behavior of God; the study of what God does (whatever "God" might be). That is why Paul could write that "since the creation of the world his invisible attributes, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made."

Theology is the Study of Everything. Unlike popular myth, the unity of the original singularity was never compromised and the universe is still One. Scientists call this oneness "symmetry" and speak of a Theory Of Everything that would describe the ultimate symmetry of the whole of reality. The ancients called it the Word of YHWH. The only difference is that science believes that the Theory Of Everything is essentially an abstraction, whereas the ancients believed that the Word is a living being. Here at Abarim Publications we respect both positions, but we bet that science and ancients will one day meet in the understanding that while DNA, like the Theory Of Everything, is essentially a bunch of data that allows a bunch of algorithms to execute, it's still the informational foundation of a very living being."
דבר | Abarim Publications Theological Dictionary (Old Testament Hebrew)

tl;dr -- What. Do. YOU. Mean?

Tone · May 27, 2019

TLK Valentine said:
tl;dr -- What. Do. YOU. Mean?

Tone said:
He is ever-present and when you meet His Word, you are in His Presence even now. Do you believe? He is waiting for you to say "Yes".

"Chizayon (Revelation) 1:8

I am the Aleph א and the Tav ת, the beginning and the ending, says YAHUAH ELOHIYM, who is, and who was, and who is to come, YAHUAH TSEVA’OT.

Chizayon (Revelation) 21:5-6

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said to me: It is done. I am the Aleph א and the Tav ת, the beginning and the end. I will give to those who thirst of the fountainhead of the water of life freely."

https://www.cepher.net/blog.aspx?post=3255

TLK Valentine · May 27, 2019

Tone said:
Chizayon (Revelation) 1:8

I am the Aleph א and the Tav ת, the beginning and the ending, says YAHUAH ELOHIYM, who is, and who was, and who is to come, YAHUAH TSEVA’OT.

Chizayon (Revelation) 21:5-6

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said to me: It is done. I am the Aleph א and the Tav ת, the beginning and the end. I will give to those who thirst of the fountainhead of the water of life freely.

Still no words of your own. Is the question too confusing?

Tone · May 27, 2019

TLK Valentine said:
Are you asking if any literature older than the Bible ever used figurative language?

Yes.

TLK Valentine said:
"strongest" and "weakest" in what way?

Say...the strongest bull in the herd dying for a sickly cow...or calf?

Tone · May 27, 2019

TLK Valentine said:
Still no words of your own. Is the question too confusing?

Do you know what the Aleph and the Tav are? The first and last letter of the Alephbet...so when I say His Word, I am speaking of all of that.

*Yeah, try re-asking the question.

TLK Valentine · May 27, 2019

Tone said:
Yes.

Yes. Pretty much everywhere.

Say...the strongest bull in the herd dying for a sickly cow...or calf?

"Strongest" in what way?

TLK Valentine · May 27, 2019

Tone said:
Do you know what the Aleph and the Tav are? The first and last letter of the Alephbet...so when I say His Word, I am speaking of all of that.

*Yeah, try re-asking the question.

The alpha and omega, in the more common Greek version of the phrase... so... everything, then?

Tone · May 27, 2019

TLK Valentine said:
Yes. Pretty much everywhere.

Any sources?

TLK Valentine said:
"Strongest" in what way?

In every way.

Tone · May 27, 2019

TLK Valentine said:
The alpha and omega, in the more common Greek version of the phrase... so... everything, then?

Well, everything of creation came through His Word...so...yeah.

Revelation 22:16
"16“I,Jesus, have sent My angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright Morning Star.”

Charles Robert Darwin

a post by Alan Smithee

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

I've already read the books you want burned.

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

I've already read the books you want burned.

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

I've already read the books you want burned.

I've already read the books you want burned.

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

I've already read the books you want burned.

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

I've already read the books you want burned.

I've already read the books you want burned.

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

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