Eve came from Adam, evolution does not allow this

Cis.jd

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Actually, I totally disagree. We must stand against "theories" of mere men if and when they contradict biblical truth. Especially when they contradict plain text as the creation account is stated.

If we stand against theories that have evidence then we are choosing to be ignorant. I've demonstrated so many scientific facts that appear to contradict the Biblical truth such as a sphere earth. Gen 3-5 would only make sense if the planet was flat. You also don't have any of the planets there. Where is the biblical truths for these?

Men are mere mortals and we are here for a short time... then judged. How are we to contradict the words of the creator, who lives outside of time and space and created us?
We are not contradicting the words of the creator, we are just making sure that christians stop misrepresenting the Bible by making it look as if it is teaching science.

How do you know what God intended with the Bible?

From what I read, the bible can be simple enough for a child and yet academics that study....

Because the Bible is his written revelation while science is discovery.
The Bible is not simple enough for a child, you can see that in Acts 8:30.

The bible certainly does not divulge all the mysteries of science.. but when science contradicts the bible.... I am going to take the bible first.
This is the same reasoning (mistake) that christians used for flat earth and the heliocentric theory.

Again, we have to be careful stating that the bible has been contradicted and or refuted by any observation by any man.
We are the only ones who put the Bible on the spot to be looked as if it is being contradicted by facts by making it a science book.

That is just semantics. God made it clear to state "there was evening, there was morning, the first day...
There is no need for the sun or moon to be present for the length of time to be a day. snip..

This would be correct if there was no reference of "morning and evening" indicating an actual earth time being established .

Did you seriously just say that? After saying "Maybe"?
And where does it give any indication, in scripture, for such an event?
Yes "maybe", you shouldn't ask for an "indication" because of that word. The word was to indicate it as all a random fill in the gaps to connect evolution.
 
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JacksBratt

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JacksBratt

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"Starting from nothing" is an atheist view of Evolution. Evolution could start after creation.
Oh.... so, it didn't come from nothing.... but God kinda kick started it and then told us something different?

Ah.... I see. Can't totally accept that God did it, the way He said... but can't totally accept that it all came from nothing..... Totally clear now.
 
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Cis.jd

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Oh.... so, it didn't come from nothing.... but God kinda kick started it and then told us something different?

Ah.... I see. Can't totally accept that God did it, the way He said... but can't totally accept that it all came from nothing..... Totally clear now.

If we believe in Intelligent Design then obviously Evolution is part of it.
 
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JacksBratt

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If we stand against theories that have evidence then we are choosing to be ignorant. I've demonstrated so many scientific facts that appear to contradict the Biblical truth such as a sphere earth. Gen 3-5 would only make sense if the planet was flat. You also don't have any of the planets there. Where is the biblical truths for these?

I'll leave the whole "FE" out of this. However, why is it that the planets are excluded from....

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:


15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.



We are not contradicting the words of the creator, we are just making sure that christians stop misrepresenting the Bible by making it look as if it is teaching science.

Again, it's not teaching science... It's stating a fact. If man's pitiful understanding of science can't figure it out.. that's not my issue. That's the scientists problem.

How is "Jesus walked on water", "Jesus turned water to wine", "Jesus stopped the wind and storm", "Jesus fed 5000 people with two fish and five loaves"... Science?



Because the Bible is his written revelation while science is discovery.
So, what is this:
Deuteronomy 23:13 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee.

OR:

“And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself seven days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean” (Leviticus 15:13).

Job 38:16
Have you entered into the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses (valleys) of the deep?


Job 36:27-28
He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind


By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. (Hebrews 11:3 NASB)



The Bible is not simple enough for a child, you can see that in Acts 8:30.

My point was that a child can read it and understand it's truth. I also stated that there are concepts that are only understood when you study it and research it.

We are to come to God like a child. Children don't get hung up on things. They believe as they are told. They don't go looking for metaphors. Even things that their parents tell them, they will believe, even if their observations may not make sense, they believe their parents and thus are learn the truth.


This is the same reasoning (mistake) that christians used for flat earth and the heliocentric theory.

You want to go down that road... eh?

Do you realize that there are numerous people who were agnostic or atheists who got caught up in the FE explosion........ studied it..... changed to believing it... and thus... they came to Christ.... Right?


We are the only ones who put the Bible on the spot to be looked as if it is being contradicted by facts by making it a science book.

Do you have any support for this claim?



This would be correct if there was no reference of "morning and evening" indicating an actual earth time being established .

Sorry, don't understand what you are saying here.

Unless you are agreeing with me as to the significance of "there was evening there was morning".
 
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JacksBratt

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If we believe in Intelligent Design then obviously Evolution is part of it.
Obvious to you.. maybe.... not to me... To me, it's obvious that our "intelligent designer told us exactly how He did it.. and... He is perfectly capable of doing it as He said.
 
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trophy33

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Concerning people, they sometimes act like animals. That does not mean either that there are no people or that people are animals, or came from animals. In that same chapter we see this..

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

So the comparison here is that both people and animals both die. Not that man is an animal, or came from an animal.

You are adding to Scriptures again, the verse does not say "like" animals, it says that men are animals.

If you force literalism upon Genesis, do not run from it there.

I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:18

And the New testament teaches that our body is an animal body, thats why it fights against our spirit.
 
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Cis.jd

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14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:


15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

Because you have no indication that they are there so based on your reasoning, you should reject the 9 planets and the sphere earth.



Again, it's not teaching science... It's stating a fact. If man's pitiful understanding of science can't figure it out.. that's not my issue. That's the scientists problem.
So then why are you here saying "evolution is false because the Bible says/doesn't say" when you are aware that it doesn't teach science?

How is "Jesus walked on water", "Jesus turned water to wine", "Jesus stopped the wind and storm", "Jesus fed 5000 people with two fish and five loaves"... Science?
what?

So, what is this:
Deuteronomy 23:13 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee.

OR:

“And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself seven days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean” (Leviticus 15:13).

Job 38:16
Have you entered into the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses (valleys) of the deep?

Job 36:27-28
He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind

By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. (Hebrews 11:3 NASB)

Man, you really don't understand my arguments at all. You are aware that ancient greece to even the quran also contain scientifically valid details, but that doesn't confirm it's credibility does it. The Quran has more scientific facts in it, but just like the Bible, it isn't made to be a science book therefore regardless of 1-5 scientific references you can pull out of it. It being correct or invalid doesn't mean anything science finds out after is invalid. Understand what I am talking about and stop rehashing fundementalistic pov's.


My point was that a child can read it and understand it's truth. I also stated that there are concepts that are only understood when you study it and research it.
But that is where you are wrong. Even an adult can't understand it in full, that is why we have more than 5,000 denominations and doctrines. At the same time, why do we still have christians who deny sphere earth, support YEC, if "a child can read it and understand it's truth". It's truth is Jesus, that is the only truth important. The rest dealing with creation and all the cosmos would take more than 1,200 pages.


You want to go down that road... eh? Do you realize that there are numerous people who were agnostic or atheists who got caught up in the FE explosion........ studied it..... changed to believing it... and thus... they came to Christ.... Right?
So what about this? How does this tie in with how identical your reasoning is in rejecting scientific studies as the Church during the time of Galileo?


Do you have any support for this claim?
Um.. the Church during Galileo, the FE christians, the YEC christians? How can you ask this question after this being demonstrated over and over again.
 
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trophy33

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Do you realize that there are numerous people who were agnostic or atheists who got caught up in the FE explosion........ studied it..... changed to believing it... and thus... they came to Christ.... Right?
And will they stay with Christ after they will realize that the FE is false? Because the FE is not a foundation for faith nor a gospel.
 
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Cis.jd

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Obvious to you.. maybe.... not to me... To me, it's obvious that our "intelligent designer told us exactly how He did it.. and... He is perfectly capable of doing it as He said.

But he didn't tell us everything exactly. For example, how did the other races like Chinese, Indians, Africans, Caucasians and all that happen? We know it happened some how out of Adam and Eve, but we don't have exact details on how scientifically.
 
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dad

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So to you a "Land flowing with milk and honey", Ex.3:8, Ex.3:17, Ex.13:5, Ex.33:3, Lev.20:24, Num.13:27, Num.14:8, Num.16:13, Num.16:14, Deut.6:3, Deut.11:9, Deut.26:9, Deut.26:15, Deut.27:3, Deut.31:20, Josh.5:6, Isa.7:22, Jer.11:5, Jer.32:22, Ezek.20:6, Ezek.20:15, has milk and honey streams tumbling down the hillsides or do you perhaps read that one as a metaphor in order to avoid being laughed at by anyone who knows anything about cows and bees and where honey and milk actually come from.
So now we have it...having lost your case on Genesis, you now start to grasp at obvious poetic descriptions of real things elsewhere in the bible. The land of milk and honey was a great place for living. You know, when the spies brought those delicious grapes back to the desert along with the descriptions of abundances seen there, it was wonderful for the folks who had been decades in the wilderness. Not sure if you doubt the pastures were good, or that one could get honey produced there?


In view of the fact that the trees set in 'the midst of the garden', are actually 'metaphorical trees',

So God is a metaphorical God who metaphorically planted a metaphorical garden for a woman metaphorically taken from a metaphorical bone in a metaphorical man that had metaphorical fruit on it that was for metaphorically eating, that would result in a metaphorical death penalty and bring metaphorical curses into the world, all for which Jesus really came and really died to save us from!? Basically you don't believe a word in the bible it seems.


the clue is in their names, one imparting the "Knowledge of good and evil", (suggesting humanity's common predisposition to decide what is good or evil by the single criteria of "what will be of benefit to ME/my tribe/my nation, my ethnicity, my race/colour, etc"),

The name suggests nothing of the unbelieving foolish sort to me actually. Eve had no tribe or nation! She was deceived by that old serpent.

rather than "What is right" in God's eyes; and the other imparting "Eternal Life", which we obviously never got a taste of, judging from the fact that everyone who has ever been born on this planet has already DIED or shall inevitably DIE, does it not seem likely to you that the other elements and characters in the 'legend' are also 'symbolic' and archetypes.

No more than is seems likely Jesus died and rose three days, rather than three billions years later.
Go ahead, read the text as literal history if it pleases you to do so, believe it to be so, but don't start telling me I'm not 'saved'
I do not recall the topic of salvation even being raise once here? But I do believe we are literally saved. Or do you think that is metaphorical also!!?
Now I have given more time to this thread than it deserves. I do not intend wasting any more precious time in a futile attempt to explain to those who are convinced they already know better than me and arrogantly think themselves more 'saved' than I am.
Hey, I'd head for the hills too if I got literally defeated so ignominiously also perhaps. No problem. You provided a great example of a case for worshiping demon science so devoutly, that one disrespects and disbelieves the bible wholesale and at the same time pays lip service to some supposed belief in God's word.

To summarize then, I take it that you side with science on where the first woman came from, which is the birth canal, rather than Scripture which says it was from an operation of God on a man?

Cheers
 
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dad

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You are adding to Scriptures again, the verse does not say "like" animals, it says that men are animals.

If you force literalism upon Genesis, do not run from it there.

I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:18

And the New testament teaches that our body is an animal body, thats why it fights against our spirit.

Solomon may have thought God ought to help man see that are beasts. Ha. The way he went through pagan women, we can forgive the poor guy for getting a little confused at times. God does not agree and never said anything of the sort! God made it clear man was special and a separate creation than animals. Jesus made it clear we are of much greater value than animals.

People who believe Scripture are not literalists. I never met anyone that thought Jesus was a lamb.
 
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ExTiff

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So now we have it...having lost your case on Genesis, you now start to grasp at obvious poetic descriptions of real things elsewhere in the bible. The land of milk and honey was a great place for living. You know, when the spies brought those delicious grapes back to the desert along with the descriptions of abundances seen there, it was wonderful for the folks who had been decades in the wilderness. ot sure if you doubt the pastures were good, or that one could get honey produced there?

So God is a metaphorical God who metaphorically planted a metaphorical garden for a woman metaphorically taken from a metaphorical bone in a metaphorical man that had metaphorical fruit on it that was for metaphorically eating, that would result in a metaphorical death penalty and bring metaphorical curses into the world, all for which Jesus really came and really died to save us from!? Basically you don't believe a word in the bible it seems.

The name suggests nothing of the unbelieving foolish sort to me actually. Eve had no tribe or nation! She was deceived by that old serpent.

No more than is seems likely Jesus died and rose three days, rather than three billions years later.
I do not recall the topic of salvation even being raise once here? But I do believe we are literally saved. Or do you think that is metaphorical also!!?
Hey, I'd head for the hills too if I got literally defeated so ignominiously also perhaps. No problem. You provided a great example of a case for worshiping demon science so devoutly, that one disrespects and disbelieves the bible wholesale and at the same time pays lip service to some supposed belief in God's word.

To summarize then, I take it that you side with science on where the first woman came from, which is the birth canal, rather than Scripture which says it was from an operation of God on a man?

Cheers

having lost your case on Genesis, you now start to grasp at obvious poetic descriptions of real things elsewhere in the bible.

So now you admit that there is metaphor in the Bible. That's a start at least. This single phrase "A land flowing with milk and honey", appears no less than 21 times in the KJV bible translation. Every time it is obviously metaphorical, yet the words literally say this: There is a land "Flowing, with milk and honey". Even a literalist like yourself can appreciate that this phrase was deliberately intended by its author to convey something DIFFERENT than it actually literally SAYS. You even admit that the author of this metaphor in at least 15 of those cases is one and the same author of the Genesis account you claim cannot possibly have any metaphorical interpretation.

It seems, that the case for Genesis having possible metaphorical interpretations is far from being lost. In fact The Hebrews and the early church have considered the metaphorical implications in the text ever since they started studying it. As with other biblical texts it is perfectly possible that there is a mythic historical basis for the text, in addition to the metaphorical interpretations of its construction. (mythic here meaning that the actual historical events are clouded by the mists of time and are interpretive and visionary, rather than a written eye witness account of the actual events, as would be expected in a modern court of law.)

I wonder if you actually understand the way in which 'mythic' and 'metaphor' are being used here. You seem to crudely think that 'metaphor' when applied to Genesis ch. 1-5 means it cannot possibly be 'true', yet at the same time 'metaphor' when applied to the same author's work elsewhere in the bible must not be read 'historically' but only the 'metaphorical' interpretation is allowable, which then enables it to be 'true'. Ex.3:8, Ex.3:17, Ex.13:5, Ex.33:3, Lev.20:24, Num.13:27, Num.14:8, Num.16:13, Num.16:14, Deut.6:3, Deut.11:9, Deut.26:9, Deut.26:15, Deut.27:3, Deut.31:20, Josh.5:6. That is wanting to keep your cake after you have eaten it.

Of course there are passages of scripture which are not primarily metaphorical, which should be understood literally, and it is a mistake to 'metaphoricalize' text which the author did not intend originally to be understood metaphorically. There is no absolute guarantee however, given the clues in the narrative itself that Gen. Chs.1-5 are any less capable of being 'metaphorical' in nature than any of the actually metaphorical references by the supposed same author, to "A land flowing with milk and honey".
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ExTiff

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People who believe Scripture are not literalists. I never met anyone that thought Jesus was a lamb.

But you actually don't believe all the scripture, like everyone else you are very selective about how you believe it.

Even a YEC could not be so stupid as to believe Jesus was actually a lamb and not a human being. Fundamentally believing that every word of scripture is to be interpreted and understood literally, would not guarantee your or anyone's salvation anyhow. It is Christ we must trust and HE is the Word we must believe for our salvation.

The bible is absolutely FULL of metaphor and you had better get used to reading it that way or you are likely not to understand how Jesis is a lamb. There are 105 references I could quote from OT and NT which say very clearly that Jesus is/was a lamb, but I am not going to waste my time telling you where they all are.

You seem to need to understand what a metaphor actually is.
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dad

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So now you admit that there is metaphor in the Bible. That's a start at least. This single phrase "A land flowing with milk and honey", appears no less than 21 times in the KJV bible translation. Every time it is obviously metaphorical, yet the words literally say this: There is a land "Flowing, with milk and honey". Even a literalist like yourself can appreciate that this phrase was deliberately intended by its author to convey something DIFFERENT than it actually literally SAYS. You even admit that the author of this metaphor in at least 15 of those cases is one and the same author of the Genesis account you claim cannot possibly have any metaphorical interpretation.

That does not mean there was no milk, or honey or land. You can't use beautiful descriptions of realities to try and say there was no realities.
It seems, that the case for Genesis having possible metaphorical interpretations is far from being lost.
There are plenty of deep meanings and truths about the events and peoples in the bible, that does not mean there was no peoples and lands or etc. NO deeper truths will EVER make the reality of the stories go away, they will add to them!

In fact The Hebrews and the early church have considered the metaphorical implications in the text ever since they started studying it. As with other biblical texts it is perfectly possible that there is a mythic historical basis for the text, in addition to the metaphorical interpretations of its construction.

How about Eve, do you think she really existed and was made by the Almighty from an operation on a real man Adam?

If so you have just renounced the theory of evolution. If not you have rejected the Scripture.

Never the twain shall meet.

(mythic here meaning that the actual historical events are clouded by the mists of time and are interpretive and visionary, rather than a written eye witness account of the actual events, as would be expected in a modern court of law.)
Well, God is the One who directed and orchestrated and wrote the bible through men. So any clouding is only a clouding of what God said!

I wonder if you actually understand the way in which 'mythic' and 'metaphor' are being used here. You seem to crudely think that 'metaphor' when applied to Genesis ch. 1-5 means it cannot possibly be 'true', yet at the same time 'metaphor' when applied to the same author's work elsewhere in the bible must not be read 'historically' but only the 'metaphorical' interpretation is allowable, which then enables it to be 'true'. Ex.3:8, Ex.3:17, Ex.13:5, Ex.33:3, Lev.20:24, Num.13:27, Num.14:8, Num.16:13, Num.16:14, Deut.6:3, Deut.11:9, Deut.26:9, Deut.26:15, Deut.27:3, Deut.31:20, Josh.5:6. That is wanting to keep your cake after you have eaten it.
No, that is knowing the difference between reality and cloudy doubts. You cannot deny the reality of what God stated in order to manufacture supposed metaphors or other meanings. We may look at Adam and Eve and etc and derive a lot of added truths and lessons and..etc from the people and events. We may NOT disbelieve the people and events though. Therefore any metaphors/lessons/deeper meaning/etc someone claims apply to the Scripture can never take away from the plain reality of the accounts God gave man. I also would take most of those supposed lessons with a large grain of salt, and they really don't matter at all in the creation evolution debate.
Of course there are passages of scripture which are not primarily metaphorical, which should be understood literally, and it is a mistake to 'metaphoricalize' text which the author did not intend originally to be understood metaphorically. There is no absolute guarantee however, given the clues in the narrative itself that Gen. Chs.1-5 are any less capable of being 'metaphorical' in nature than any of the actually metaphorical references by the supposed same author, to "A land flowing with milk and honey".
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No connection whatsoever. There was milk and there was honey in that land, and compared to the wilderness it was very much flowing. In no possible way does that mean there was no Eve or anything else God recorded as a matter of fact and history.
 
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But you actually don't believe all the scripture, like everyone else you are very selective about how you believe it.
? Hey, what's not to believe?
Even a YEC could not be so stupid as to believe Jesus was actually a lamb and not a human being.
Says the man who doesn't seem to think Eve was real? Or do you? Be clear.

Fundamentally believing that every word of scripture is to be interpreted and understood literally, would not guarantee your or anyone's salvation anyhow.

Not every word is literal. That does not give you the right to take away from these words that which is presented as real.
It is Christ we must trust and HE is the Word we must believe for our salvation.
The same Christ that created all things and said that Scripture was bang on.
The bible is absolutely FULL of metaphor and you had better get used to reading it that way or you are likely not to understand how Jesis is a lamb. There are 105 references I could quote from OT and NT which say very clearly that Jesus is/was a lamb, but I am not going to waste my time telling you where they all are.

Those who know the bible know that Jesus was the heart of the old testament, and that the sacrifices all pointed to Him coming one day as that sacrifice for us that the lambs represented. The title Lamb of God is very very apt and fitting and real. Your problem is that when you try to wave away the Genesis account as some metaphor/story/hidden meaning fable or whatever, you are denying the persons and events recorded. The title of Lamb for Jesus does not in any way take away from the reality He exists, it just adds a new dimension as other names and titles of God do.
 
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ExTiff

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That does not mean there was no milk, or honey or land. You can't use beautiful descriptions of realities to try and say there was no realities.

Is that what you think I was saying. Some people's capacity for misunderstanding knows no bounds, it would seem.

My point was that the metaphor actually implies the land had plentious supplies of both milk and honey. Not only that but the metaphor implies that not only milk and honey were plentiful but the land was plentifully endowed with everything the Hebrews could possibly desire. A metaphor for heaven itself, (the promised land), the rest, that God has promised in Christ. Ps.95:11, Heb.3:11-18, Heb.4:3-11. The Bible is full of metaphor.
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The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
You'd have to ask the guys who think we were made by "the designer." Maybe he's sitting on the back of a giant turtle, or something...

Well, you do seem to have the need to add to scripture.

Ah, I forgot my Warning For The Humor-Impaired. My bad.
 
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ExTiff

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Your problem is that when you try to wave away the Genesis account as some metaphor/story/hidden meaning fable or whatever, you are denying the persons and events recorded.

Your problem is that you don't understand Genesis. You have turned it into a very old newspaper report on God making a man from mud pies and some persons eating fruit. You have stripped it of all its meaning apart from the statement of some dodgy historical facts that have little meaning in terms of human psychology, salvation history or indeed anything else important to a person living today.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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Not every word is literal. That does not give you the right to take away from these words that which is presented as real.

It is just arrogance though to think that you alone have to faculty to decide what is real and what is not intended as literal in the Bible.
 
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