Bible and science?

nolidad

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5-years old girl:
"God made me."

A scientist:
"Actually, your daddy and mommy made you, sperm, fertilization, egg, ovulation...."

Who is lying? Right, nobody. Both are right. What is different? The person who is describing it. Moses was not a 21st century scientist.


Actually the Girl has the most correct answer! (I watched your video)

The scientist is simply describing the process God uses to make a baby.

One describes the cause (the girl) and the other describes the mechanism God uses (natural laws)

True science does not negate the proclamations of the Word of God!
Anmd by True science I do not mean what I agree with, but what is verifiable by the scientific method.
 
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The Barbarian

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You: "If you said there were, then one of us did. I'm just pointing out that the Israelites who wrote down Genesis did not think the Earth was a globe."

that is you placing your wishes on Scripture.

No, that is me noting the way the described the universe. Flat, circular Earth, with a solid dome over it, with gates through which rain would fall when opened. You consistently add words and your perferences to make it acceptable to you.

No I keep words in context-

For you, "context" means "how can I adjust it to fit my own wishes?"

It is you relying on your new man-made doctrines and revisionists who impose their decisions on Scripture.

As for the nicene credd.
I did not ask what I believed-

When I told you that the creed defined what we as Christian believe, and asked you if you accepted it, you dodged the question and refused to answer. That's very telling. I asked you a simple question; "do you believe the creed?" All it requires is a simple "yes" or "no." Why won't you do that?

All of us who are Christians accept the Nicene Creed as truth. And yet you won't tell us if you do. Why is that?
 
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The Barbarian

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A false king means he only pretends to be a king. There is only one God, you should know that.

I'm wondering if Dad might be a Mormon. They believe in a multiplicity of gods, indeed, hope to become gods themselves.
 
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The Barbarian

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When they learn demonic evo nonsense and get advice on same sex marriages and abortion and etc etc..not sure wearing some lapel pin would help.

You have a rather bizarre notion of what schools are like. :|

White evangelicals are the most likely people to object to neighbors of another race.

I'd take that with a grain of salt.

One of your fellow evangelicals noticed this. And Barna is an evangelical whose business it is to collect data on evangelicals. But it's not just Barna.

More to the point, the late 19th-century reunification of northern and southern white Protestants embedded a politics of whiteness on the evangelical coalition. By the 1960s, white evangelicals had spent decades sacralizing Jim Crow. The ministers who led the civil rights coalition caught white evangelicals flat-footed by naming segregation as unbiblical. Such a claim flew in the face of the status quo, where God-fearing white Christians and black Christians worshiped in separate churches and went to segregated schools. White evangelicals understood segregation as the natural—even divine—ordering of society. They responded in different ways to the civil rights challenge. A minority preached “massive resistance” to desegregation, but a greater number took their cues from Billy Graham, calling on civil rights activists to take it slow and follow the laws.

When civil rights activists (and later, second-wave feminists and gay rights activists) refused to slow down or to reject civil disobedience, white evangelicals strengthened their political resistance to liberal activism. They also sharpened their hostility to the federal government, which enforced desegregation through court orders and the deployment of the National Guard. Fears of a tyrannical government became more pronounced among evangelicals in the 1970s, fueled in particular by an obsession with end-times theology.

By the final decades of the 20th century, a commitment to right-wing political movements and white racial identity offered the most distinctive marks of evangelicalism
....
Evangelicals are not any whiter, demographically, than mainliners or Mormons. But they have rallied around Trump to defend a white Protestant nation. They have proven to be loyal foot soldiers in the battle against undocumented immigrants and Muslims. The triumph of gay rights, the persistence of legal abortion, and the election of Barack Obama signaled to them a need to fight for the America they once knew. The history of American evangelicalism shows us a group of believers who find the most in common when it comes to race and politics.

Whiteness in American evangelical history

Jesus is the Christian value.

That's not what sets evangelicals apart.

Being Catholic, I don't reject the validity of other denominations. That's a pretty good clue that someone doesn't really get what Jesus wants from us.

Yet you railed against protestants and evangelicals.

No. Protestants are not merely evangelicals. And as Christians, we don't deny anything that is good and true in other religions. There is much that is good and true in evangelical Christianity. It has just beome racialized and politicized to a degree that impairs its stated goal of saving souls.

Just because I actually believe in the flood and creation week and Adam and Eve etc does not constitute denial of Genesis.

A literal six-day creation week is a denial of Genesis, which uses "yom" as a way of describing categories of Creation. As you know, Christians realized this well over a thousand years ago. Fortunately for you, it won't send you to hell for not accepting His word on this. He doesn't care if you approve of the way He created things. Making your new doctrines an idol, and declaring that all Christians must believe in them, that might be less safe for you.
 
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trophy33

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Actually the Girl has the most correct answer! (I watched your video)

The scientist is simply describing the process God uses to make a baby.

One describes the cause (the girl) and the other describes the mechanism God uses (natural laws)

True science does not negate the proclamations of the Word of God!
Anmd by True science I do not mean what I agree with, but what is verifiable by the scientific method.
Exactly. Gen 1 and 2 does not describe the mechanism, the process. Its the girl's kind of description.

I appreciate you watched the video. You may understand better the problem with the scientific reading of Genesis.
 
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nolidad

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No, that is me noting the way the described the universe. Flat, circular Earth, with a solid dome over it, with gates through which rain would fall when opened. You consistently add words and your perferences to make it acceptable to you.



For you, "context" means "how can I adjust it to fit my own wishes?"

It is you relying on your new man-made doctrines and revisionists who impose their decisions on Scripture.



When I told you that the creed defined what we as Christian believe, and asked you if you accepted it, you dodged the question and refused to answer. That's very telling. I asked you a simple question; "do you believe the creed?" All it requires is a simple "yes" or "no." Why won't you do that?

All of us who are Christians accept the Nicene Creed as truth. And yet you won't tell us if you do. Why is that?

As soon as you stop your little dodges and answer my question with teh simple yes or no you ask of me!

"For you, "context" means "how can I adjust it to fit my own wishes?"

It is you relying on your new man-made doctrines and revisionists who impose their decisions on Scripture."

Lies as usual!
 
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nolidad

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Exactly. Gen 1 and 2 does not describe the mechanism, the process. Its the girl's kind of description.

I appreciate you watched the video. You may understand better the problem with the scientific reading of Genesis.


Well let me declare this on this site so all may know!

Bot the creation and Evolution model of origins are outside the realm of science. They are objects of faith. Neither can be tested, observed and repeated to meet the criteria of the scientific method.

But as for verifiable science- it lends more support for the creation model of origins than it does for the BB/Evolution model.

Genesis 2 is man in the garden not creation week. 2 seperate events.

Exactly how God speaking caused plants to immediately bloom on the earth and fish, fowl and land life burst forth in abundance immediately- we can never know in this life. what we do know is He did it in a moment approx 6k years ago.
 
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trophy33

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Well let me declare this on this site so all may know!

Bot the creation and Evolution model of origins are outside the realm of science. They are objects of faith. Neither can be tested, observed and repeated to meet the criteria of the scientific method.

But as for verifiable science- it lends more support for the creation model of origins than it does for the BB/Evolution model.
I have no idea how you came to this conclusion.
Genesis 2 is man in the garden not creation week. 2 seperate events.
Separate events, but both very full of symbolism and not scientific.
Exactly how God speaking caused plants to immediately bloom on the earth and fish, fowl and land life burst forth in abundance immediately- we can never know in this life.
There are sciences working exactly on this. Just a little hint - it was not immediately.
what we do know is He did it in a moment approx 6k years ago.
No, this is just a claim of the YEC proponents, for this claim they need to:
a) read Genesis in a totally wrong way (scientifically instead of from the ancient perspective)
b) add and invent many ad-hoc solutions for it (one continent, no biological death before the fall, total recreation of almost everything after the fall, ocean of waters above firmanent that disappeared after the flood etc).
 
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The Barbarian

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As soon as you stop your little dodges and answer my question with teh simple yes or no you ask of me!

I brought up the Nicene Creed, showed you that it's the statement of Christian belief, and asked if you accepted it. You've continued to dodge the question, and pretended that I didn't tell you that it's what we Christians believe. Why are you so unwilling to answer?

For you, "context" means "how can I adjust it to fit my own wishes?"

It is you relying on your new man-made doctrines and revisionists who impose their decisions on Scripture.

Lies as usual!

You can dodge and make accusations as you will. But you aren't going to answer the question, are you?
 
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The Barbarian

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Well let me declare this on this site so all may know!

Bot the creation and Evolution model of origins are outside the realm of science.

You're wrong about both of them. We can learn much about creation from creation itself:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

You're wrong about evolution, too. We observe it daily. And as you learned, many, many predictions of evolutionary theory have since been confirmed by evidence. Would you like me to show you again?

They are objects of faith.

Nope. Both are directly observable. We can test the predictions of evolutionary theory, observe evolution in action, and repeat the findings by observing again, or even testing them in laboratories. Would you like to learn about some of it?

Genesis 2 is man in the garden not creation week. 2 seperate events.

You should tell Dad. He doesn't know.
 
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nolidad

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You're wrong about both of them. We can learn much about creation from creation itself:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

You're wrong about evolution, too. We observe it daily. And as you learned, many, many predictions of evolutionary theory have since been confirmed by evidence. Would you like me to show you again?



Nope. Both are directly observable. We can test the predictions of evolutionary theory, observe evolution in action, and repeat the findings by observing again, or even testing them in laboratories. Would you like to learn about some of it?



You should tell Dad. He doesn't know.


Wrong!

As soon as you directly answer my simple question about jesus I will answer every question or rebut every statement you have made.

Do you personally believe that Jesus is eternal God with His Father? Yes or No?
 
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nolidad

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I brought up the Nicene Creed, showed you that it's the statement of Christian belief, and asked if you accepted it. You've continued to dodge the question, and pretended that I didn't tell you that it's what we Christians believe. Why are you so unwilling to answer?

For you, "context" means "how can I adjust it to fit my own wishes?"

It is you relying on your new man-made doctrines and revisionists who impose their decisions on Scripture.



You can dodge and make accusations as you will. But you aren't going to answer the question, are you?

As soon as you answer mine! Yes or no!
 
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nolidad

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I brought up the Nicene Creed, showed you that it's the statement of Christian belief, and asked if you accepted it. You've continued to dodge the question, and pretended that I didn't tell you that it's what we Christians believe. Why are you so unwilling to answer?

For you, "context" means "how can I adjust it to fit my own wishes?"

It is you relying on your new man-made doctrines and revisionists who impose their decisions on Scripture.



You can dodge and make accusations as you will. But you aren't going to answer the question, are you?


So do you believe it personal;ly- never mind we of the church or anything else- do you personally believe Jesus is eternal God with His father? Yes or not?
 
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nolidad

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I have no idea how you came to this conclusion.

Separate events, but both very full of symbolism and not scientific.

There are sciences working exactly on this. Just a little hint - it was not immediately.

No, this is just a claim of the YEC proponents, for this claim they need to:
a) read Genesis in a totally wrong way (scientifically instead of from the ancient perspective)
b) add and invent many ad-hoc solutions for it (one continent, no biological death before the fall, total recreation of almost everything after the fall, ocean of waters above firmanent that disappeared after the flood etc).


How did I come to these conslusions?

Teh scientific method to validate natrual "facts" requires testing repeating and observing! No one was ther when the big bang supposedly occurred nor can they verify that all their calculations and predictions
by gong in back in time. Same with creation. We can see support and evidences but no direct observation that would allow anyone to call either true!

As for Genesis 1 and 2 you know they are full of symbolism how? there is no warrant in the language to justify that. Only an allegorical interpretation allows for these to be symbolic. Then how do we know your allegorical view is better than many others?

The language in Genesis says they came forth fully grown at the beginning. They then continued by seed and growth from seed. Science can never verify the miraculous- science can only explain natural events- that is why science is now mostly athiestic /agnostic because they have been indoctrinated since grammar school to no tthink of God being involved in the natural world. That is also why most scientists mock the physical resurrection of Jesus! It just cannot happen that a person drained of blood can rise from the dead with full vigor and strength and a "better" body than what was buried!


And no these are not claims of YEC proponents. They are taking Scripture at its normal usual meaning of words!

We take the Scripture and then use it as a hypothesis and then research the hows and whats of the statements without discarding the divine miraculous!

I believe exactly what eh bible says- He put the waters on teh earth in one placed and called them seas. The antenoahic earth could have been a reversal of what we see today- it could have been 80% land and 20% water!

as for death of creatures, before the fall, I rely on Romans 5, and also Romans 8 and how they work in the greek! Those are intensely powerful verses that declare that not only all life but the entire universe suffered the curse because of adam (that is why God is going to destroy this present universe and create one without corruption)

Maybe you should ask yourself what would happen if a global flood took place?

Then look at Scripture then the geological and paleontological evidence!

Psalm 104 is a very scientific statement about where the flood waters went.
Let us look at that for a moment.

The fountains of the great deep were opened and deluged water. What would that create? Gigantic underground caves! As the pressure of the rising waters mounted- these areas would slump and make perfect places to form the new oceans. Great tectonic and volcanic activity! Flood scour land masses! Wiping them near clean!
They kill. And a flood like this would destroy one ecosystem at a time as the waters rose. And of course if there was water or vapor stored in some level of the atmosphere- we would not have that water today- it poured out!
Even science agrees in Pangaea- they just dispute when.
 
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The Barbarian

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So do you believe it personal;ly- never mind we of the church or anything else- do you personally believe Jesus is eternal God with His father? Yes or not?

And I'm now wondering, since I already showed you the Nicene Creed as what I believe, why you are so reluctant to tell me whether or not you also believe it. Why is that?

Are you actually a Christian?
 
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The Barbarian

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How did I come to these conslusions?

Teh scientific method to validate natrual "facts" requires testing repeating and observing! No one was ther when the big bang supposedly occurred nor can they verify that all their calculations and predictions by gong in back in time.

Sorry, the creationist dodge "we can't know anything we weren't there to see personally" is so obviously wrong, I'm astonished anyone still tries to sell it. Would you like me to show you some counterexamples?

Same with creation. We can see support and evidences but no direct observation that would allow anyone to call either true!

God disagrees with you:
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

As for Genesis 1 and 2 you know they are full of symbolism how?

They use symbolic language. The guys who wrote it down realized this:
Earlier geological strata of the earth’s surface show the different stages through which the earth passed and approximately how long they lasted, while fossils and remains of extinct species such as dinosaurs show that the different species of living creatures evolved slowly from a common ancestor.


These conclusions are denied by adherents of a doctrine known as "scientific creationism," who are campaigning to require that any public school which teaches evolution must also teach what they call "creation science" as a scientifically respectable alternative to evolution.


The feverish concern of the "scientific creationists" to protect a literal reading of the story in Genesis 1 reflects a conviction that devotion to the Bible requires one to interpret its words–particularly Genesis–literally and to accept it in its literal sense.


But, as Steven Katz notes…, "In Jewish religious thought Genesis is not regarded as meant for a literal reading, and Jewish tradition has not usually read it so." In fact, as we shall argue below, even the compilers of the Bible do not seem to have been concerned with a literal reading of the text. They were prepared to have at least parts of it read non-literally.


Sensible Interpretation
In the Middle Ages, Saadia Gaon argued that a biblical passage should not be interpreted literally if that made a passage mean something contrary to the senses or reason (or, as we would say, science; Emunot ve-Deot, chapter 7). Maimonides applied this principle to theories about creation. He held that if the eternity of the universe (what we would call the Steady State theory) could be proven by logic (science) then the biblical passages speaking about creation at a point in time could and should be interpreted figuratively in a way that is compatible with the eternity of the universe.
Genesis As Allegory | My Jewish Learning

there is no warrant in the language to justify that. Only an allegorical interpretation allows for these to be symbolic.

Jewish scholars disagree with you. But what do they know about Hebrew, um?

The language in Genesis says they came forth fully grown at the beginning.

"Fully grown at the beginning" is your insertion. Bad idea. Why not just accept it as it is?

And your explanation for ocean basins is just a fairy tale, inconsistent with the evidence. Would you like to learn why?
 
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nolidad

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Sorry, the creationist dodge "we can't know anything we weren't there to see personally" is so obviously wrong, I'm astonished anyone still tries to sell it. Would you like me to show you some counterexamples?



God disagrees with you:
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.



They use symbolic language. The guys who wrote it down realized this:
Earlier geological strata of the earth’s surface show the different stages through which the earth passed and approximately how long they lasted, while fossils and remains of extinct species such as dinosaurs show that the different species of living creatures evolved slowly from a common ancestor.


These conclusions are denied by adherents of a doctrine known as "scientific creationism," who are campaigning to require that any public school which teaches evolution must also teach what they call "creation science" as a scientifically respectable alternative to evolution.


The feverish concern of the "scientific creationists" to protect a literal reading of the story in Genesis 1 reflects a conviction that devotion to the Bible requires one to interpret its words–particularly Genesis–literally and to accept it in its literal sense.


But, as Steven Katz notes…, "In Jewish religious thought Genesis is not regarded as meant for a literal reading, and Jewish tradition has not usually read it so." In fact, as we shall argue below, even the compilers of the Bible do not seem to have been concerned with a literal reading of the text. They were prepared to have at least parts of it read non-literally.


Sensible Interpretation
In the Middle Ages, Saadia Gaon argued that a biblical passage should not be interpreted literally if that made a passage mean something contrary to the senses or reason (or, as we would say, science; Emunot ve-Deot, chapter 7). Maimonides applied this principle to theories about creation. He held that if the eternity of the universe (what we would call the Steady State theory) could be proven by logic (science) then the biblical passages speaking about creation at a point in time could and should be interpreted figuratively in a way that is compatible with the eternity of the universe.
Genesis As Allegory | My Jewish Learning



Jewish scholars disagree with you. But what do they know about Hebrew, um?



"Fully grown at the beginning" is your insertion. Bad idea. Why not just accept it as it is?

And your explanation for ocean basins is just a fairy tale, inconsistent with the evidence. Would you like to learn why?


As soon as you answer my question we can deal with all your other things!
 
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nolidad

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And I'm now wondering, since I already showed you the Nicene Creed as what I believe, why you are so reluctant to tell me whether or not you also believe it. Why is that?

Are you actually a Christian?

So just say yes! Is that so hard?????? does it gall you or something!
 
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The Barbarian

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So just say yes! Is that so hard?????? does it gall you or something!

I asked you first, if you accepted the Nicene Creed. For whatever reason, you won't say. We'll just draw the reasonable conclusion from that. Whatever your beliefs are, they seem to not allow you to confirm the Creed. Why you won't do that, as the rest of us have, can be your secret.

So be it.
 
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klutedavid

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I have heard people argue that the Bible and science contradicts, e.g. along the lines of claiming that there are many species of a certain type of animal (I am not saying I believe the Bible and science contradicts, I am just saying this is what some people claim) "contrary" to Noah's ark?

What are your thoughts on this?
Very early in the earth's history did the continents exist alongside the oceans, or was the early earth just covered in water?

Genesis 1:9-10
Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.

According to the Genesis account water covered the earth and after some time the continents appear.

Has science been able to answer this question yet?

Early Earth was covered in a global ocean and had no mountains. Earth 4.4 billion years ago was flat and almost entirely covered in water with just a few small islands, new research suggests. Scientists came to the conclusion after analysing tiny zircon mineral grains from a region of Western Australia containing the oldest rocks ever found. (Nature Geoscience, DOI: 10.1038/ngeo2942; newscientist.com, 8th May 2017)

Though the Genesis account is obviously a very ancient account and has been passed on for millennia. How could the Genesis account possibly have been correct regarding the formation of land mass, on the surface of the earth after the oceans already existed?
 
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