Dating and Sex

SleepingAtLast · May 2, 2019

Emosoundlogic said:
The average family is obese... The average male in america is 5'9'' 190 lbs... The average female is 5'4'' 160lbs... Both are 40lbs over weight... The fact that americans turn a blind eye to it, I'll give you that, but it's not ignorance, people legit just refuse to look at the facts. That eating a clean healthy diet sucks, it doesn't taste great, and it's not convenient or cheap.

It is worth pointing out that BMI doesn't take muscle mass into account. Recently an NFL player showed up to the combine at 6'3", 228 lbs, and 1.6% body fat. He had a 40.5-inch vertical and a 4.33 40-yard dash time. According to the BMI, he is overweight and 12 lbs short of being obese.

Emosoundlogic said:
Oh, I have bounced that off of people, and every single person tells me not to get married. So, basically, live a life of sin because you are damaged goods. Not that of course any woman is going to want to touch me anyway.

"Damaged goods" implies that something permanent is wrong with you. I was not suggesting that was the case, nor would I at all. A viewpoint regarding marriage is something that can be worked on and changed. Also, I echo similar struggles to what you have expressed both in how I was raised food-wise and in struggle with sexual sin, however it is possible to overcome sexual sin even as a single person. I am not there 100%, but I have come a long way over the past 2 1/2 years of working on it.

And I would definitely reject the idea that no woman would want to be with you. I have wrestled with this thought many times, but it is important to remember that in order to be able to be loved/accept love from someone else, you must first love yourself.

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat · May 2, 2019

Emosoundlogic said:
Been this way since I was a kid, it's just a personality defect. Some people aren't made to get married. We just have to live lives of disobedience I guess.

Do you think it is logical to keep behaving in a way that is producing an undesirable outcome? Which in this case is turning women off by your behavior? It seems at this point this is where your logic ends. Or leads you astray at the very least.

Endeavourer · May 2, 2019

This thread is getting a little out of hand.

Emosoundlogic, I get what you're saying. And your Creator gave you testosterone to cause the immediate urgency you are feeling. He also gave you an even larger source of love though; a heart.

When you truly fall in love with someone you will feel a lot less transactional towards them. You'll build up a love bank account with each other and desire to engage in a relationship of extraordinary care towards each other. You'll want to refrain from doing things that make the other person unhappy.

From your posts I get the sense you are totally willing to do this, but accommodating yourself around any OCD or challenging social tendencies are your responsibility, 100%, and you can't impose problems on your spouse because of them. When you are married, if your OCD or contractual mind set affects her, it will cause little (or big) withdrawals out of her love bank for you, and you want to protect your balance in her love bank at all costs (well, certainly at most costs) because the joy of your marriage translates into the joy of your day to day. It also translates into her desire to connect with you emotionally and of course physically.

So, part of your personality is this quantified requirement for weight. Some women are just made to be 20 or 30 pounds above an ideal weight. If they are active, they can outrun, out hike, out ski, and [fill in the blank] a weight ideal person who sits around on the couch all day. What you may find more success at is focusing on women who match your activity level, and letting that exclusively be your barometer until you can calibrate about where the appearance vs function cut-off range is.

As for weight, I have a daughter who weighs 30+ pounds more than I do, is 3 inches shorter and wears a smaller pant size than I do. So weight or BMI as a qualifying factor is not helpful. Focus on how they can enjoy an active lifestyle with you.

Endeavourer · May 2, 2019

SleepingAtLast said:
I have wrestled with this thought many times, but it is important to remember that in order to be able to be loved/accept love from someone else, you must first love yourself.

You are not the only one who has wrestled with this. My husband received an aHA! moment when he realized that we are to love God above all and our neighbor AS OUR SELF. Not more, not less. That means we must love ourselves, too.

Yet our evangelical culture tries to convince us otherwise, in most faith traditions anyway.

Tropical Wilds · May 2, 2019

Emosoundlogic said:
I'm honestly not worried about either of your feedback, you're obviously an over weight woman who doesn't like me because I don't find over weight women attractive,

I’m not asking you to find me attractive... Why do you keep thinking I do?

As far as my weight is concerned, about 10 years ago I did put on like 60-70 pounds after I broke my tailbone, my sacrum, and several ribs and was largely immobile for a year. Then I lost just under 90 pounds in about a year. I was an avid runner, participated in four half marathons, eight 5ks, and four 10ks in 18 months, and became a brand ambassador and group leader for Weight Watchers where I helped members lose over 5,000 pounds. I did gain weight after being diagnosed with Crohn’s Disease and MS (thanks to chemo and meds and having to quit running), but now that I’m in remission I’m back down to my pre-pregnancy weight and running regularly. Thanks to having my body completely fail on me, I have completely abandoned my former fixation with weight and waist and instead have become obsessed with honoring and celebrating the movement and function of my body.

Tomorrow I could wake up and need a wheelchair for the rest of my life. The things I will look back on as beautiful moments blessed on me by God is not being objectified by somebody not my husband and having him swoon over my small waist. I couldn’t care less if you think I’m fat, thin, good, bad, or ugly.

So you come for me for your issues which you project on to me, or you can listen to the advice you asked for to help you understand why dating is a struggle for you.

while not being over weight myself, which makes it impossible for you to attack anything but my character, which at best is STILL ad hominem.

Says the person who wants to write me off simply because he assumes I’m an unattractive, overweight woman. You need to take a seat.

Emosoundlogic · May 2, 2019

SleepingAtLast said:
It is worth pointing out that BMI doesn't take muscle mass into account. Recently an NFL player showed up to the combine at 6'3", 228 lbs, and 1.6% body fat. He had a 40.5-inch vertical and a 4.33 40-yard dash time. According to the BMI, he is overweight and 12 lbs short of being obese.

"Damaged goods" implies that something permanent is wrong with you. I was not suggesting that was the case, nor would I at all. A viewpoint regarding marriage is something that can be worked on and changed. Also, I echo similar struggles to what you have expressed both in how I was raised food-wise and in struggle with sexual sin, however it is possible to overcome sexual sin even as a single person. I am not there 100%, but I have come a long way over the past 2 1/2 years of working on it.

And I would definitely reject the idea that no woman would want to be with you. I have wrestled with this thought many times, but it is important to remember that in order to be able to be loved/accept love from someone else, you must first love yourself.

I'm 6'2'' 235, according to BMI I am obese also, yes, I am well aware that BMI is a terrible judge of muscle mass... I don't see many fit women running around like body builders, I mean yeah if she does crossfit okay sure, but that's obvious, and I'm not really into muscled up chicks anyway, I prefer to be the man in the relationship, half of them are on testosterone anyway.

Lol, yeah, well good luck with that. I battled inappropriate content for 20 years and the only reason I think I managed to beat it was because I had a VERY specific type of interest, it wasn't the novelity of it that got me going, so I actually just got bored of it after a while, plus once you've had the real thing it becomes way better anyway.

I am sure there's someone out there who could put up with me, but yeah it's going to be super rare, hopefully she's out there somewhere, but I've practically given up. In 5 years I'm averaging like 2 dates a year, maybe, and that's if I try HARD, now I'm not even trying and I doubt I'll get a date this entire year, so far nothing. I don't even want to date anymore honestly, it's too much work.

I gotta match with them, which is rare, then I gotta get them to actually respond, even more rare, then I gotta go out and meet them for a drink, and go through the same ol tired song and dance, what do you do, do you have an siblings, where did you grow up etc etc etc... Only to get no response to my follow up text about having a active date like a hike or something.

I've literally joined match making groups, I've done speed dating, I've done every app, every site... Like, it's obvious, the majority of women find me repulsive physically. Always have. There's a couple blind ones out there, but they're rare.

Emosoundlogic · May 2, 2019

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:
Do you think it is logical to keep behaving in a way that is producing an undesirable outcome? Which in this case is turning women off by your behavior? It seems at this point this is where your logic ends. Or leads you astray at the very least.

I think you need to do some research on personality disorders. You don't just "change your personality"... Psychologist have spent 100's of years trying to figure out how the mind works and have pretty much gotten it down to 5 traits. Ones that are MARGINALLY adjustable. Someone who scored 4th percentile in politeness, me, meaning 96% of people are more polite than I am, is not going to become average no matter how hard I work at it, I can MAYBE get to 20% if I really really work at it, and have spent a lot of time doing so in therapy.

Not to mention I scored 30th in empathy, so while I care about people, I care less than the average person by almost half. I'm 90% percentile in neuroticism which basically means I'm an anxious depressed mess most of the time, and I simply cope with medication and physical fitness, my new drug to replace alcohol and binge eating.

I'm not desirable to most women, those traits are damning.

2PhiloVoid · May 2, 2019

Emosoundlogic said:
Oh, I'm definitely OCD massively, more on the Obsessive side than compulsive, although I have to lock my doors a few times. But, specifically, I'm extremely low in trust, hyper paranoid. I over think everything to the point of paralysis at times. I can be incredibly blunt, but I'm insanely honest. I'd tell a total stranger almost all my darkest secrets, so long as it can't actually hurt me. For example, I don't tell my co-workers a lot of stuff about me, but a select few I've gained enough trust that it would be mutual destruction if they were to act against me.

Ok then. If you realize that this is where you are at the moment psychologically, then it you may need to modify some of the assertions you've thus far made about you're 'actually' being flexible and fairly laid-back.

Being blunt with the wrong people, especially with any woman whom you are attempting to build emotional rapport, is typically an undermining course in communication. And while you may value honesty---or what you conceptualize as honesty---that too may need to be something you learn to reel in a bit if you're trying to build something of a relational quality with a woman. And if you have dark secrets, well............as a Christian you may also want to make sure you're honestly working to improve on whatever fronts those may entail.

I'm almost purely contractual with people. You provide X, I provide Y, and so long as you hold up your end of the bargain you can 100% count that I will hold up my end. If you stop, then I stop, and yeah it's pretty much over. The thing that worries me most about marriage is being in a situation where my wife refuses to hold her end of the bargain up, and I am forced into a worse scenario than I already am, simply because she changed her mind.

...being contractual with people has its place, particularly in a debate (if that's your thing), but when relating to people in the off-line, real world as it pertains to women, you'll need to learn to take a punch and roll with it from time to time. No one is perfect, and I'm sure a potential wife won't be, just as you won't be despite whatever intentions I'm sure you'll have going into it all over the long haul.

In marriage, and before the face of the Lord, you'll need to realize that your relationship shouldn't be based on a mere contract between the two of you and center on issues like 'who unloaded the dishes last time,' but that rather first and foremost each of you has a duty (in contract?) with God to be the best 'you' that you can be, whether or not your spouse is being the best 'she' that she can be.

But if you're on an online forum, and you find yourself in the middle of a swarm of nasty, epistemologically dishelved atheists who refuse to use their rational minds to get out of a repetitive state of OCD where they constantly make mountains out of their own deductions in a vaccuum, then feel free to verbally swap them a few times here and there if you need to ...

(...oh sorry. I got beside myself there for a moment.)

I asked the therapist if she thought I was sociopathic, she said no, I definitely feel deep empathy for people, but I am extremely low in politeness and contractual in nature. Relationships are a business to me more or less.

Alright. Then, you may want to start thinking about ways in which you can change your view of the world, one small step at a time, at least where a potential lady friend (and family) are concerned.

There is a place and time for being 'tough,' but I haven't remained married for 25 years by maintaining 'no holds barred' ultimatums with my wife. As Paul the Apostle alluded to in his passage on marriage, marriage comes with troubles, and you have to be prepared and ready for most of what can come with that BEFORE you enter a marriage.

Endeavourer · May 2, 2019

Emosoundlogic said:
. Like, it's obvious, the majority of women find me repulsive physically. Always have. There's a couple blind ones out there, but they're rare.

OK, stop that. I hope you are just being tongue in cheek.

I clicked on that link you attached upstream in this thread and was surprised at how attractive you were because of the way you described yourself. Your physical appearance is not your impediment.

I don't know much about that site, and whether when you click the right arrow to see the next pic and the next if those have anything to do with you, or if they are just in some general repository, because the next pics over became gross fast. If those pics are associated with you then, as a woman, if I clicked that link and saw the pics that followed after your picture I wouldn't respond back.

They didn't seem to fit the person posting here on this board, though, so I thought they must not have anything to do with you?

If you give out that link to anyone, I'd put it somewhere else so you can control the other elements that frame her impression on either side of your pic.

RDKirk · May 2, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Asking the average Christian for advice on relationships and sex is like asking an auto mechanic for instructions on neurosurgery.

Not getting the analogy.

The average auto mechanic has zero experience with neurosurgery.

The average Christian has had some experience with relationships and sex.

Endeavourer · May 2, 2019

Emosoundlogic said:
I think you need to do some research on personality disorders. You don't just "change your personality"...

You can't change your personality but you can change your behaviors. It will be up to you to offer behaviors that will make someone want to fall in love and stay in love with you.

FireDragon76 · May 2, 2019

RDKirk said:
Not getting the analogy.

The average auto mechanic has zero experience with neurosurgery.

The average Christian has had some experience with relationships and sex.

But do they have genuine expertise? I think there's more to life than "Bible, Bible... and more Bible".

Emosoundlogic · May 2, 2019

Tropical Wilds said:
I’m not asking you to find me attractive... Why do you keep thinking I do?

As far as my weight is concerned, about 10 years ago I did put on like 60-70 pounds after I broke my tailbone, my sacrum, and several ribs and was largely immobile for a year. Then I lost just under 90 pounds in about a year. I was an avid runner, participated in four half marathons, eight 5ks, and four 10ks in 18 months, and became a brand ambassador and group leader for Weight Watchers where I helped members lose over 5,000 pounds. I did gain weight after being diagnosed with Crohn’s Disease and MS (thanks to chemo and meds and having to quit running), but now that I’m in remission I’m back down to my pre-pregnancy weight and running regularly. Thanks to having my body completely fail on me, I have completely abandoned my former fixation with weight and waist and instead have become obsessed with honoring and celebrating the movement and function of my body.

Tomorrow I could wake up and need a wheelchair for the rest of my life. The things I will look back on as beautiful moments blessed on me by God is not being objectified by somebody not my husband and having him swoon over my small waist. I couldn’t care less if you think I’m fat, thin, good, bad, or ugly.

So you come for me for your issues which you project on to me, or you can listen to the advice you asked for to help you understand why dating is a struggle for you.

Says the person who wants to write me off simply because he assumes I’m an unattractive, overweight woman. You need to take a seat.

You started it lol, you obviously have a hot button when it comes to weight, as do I. I am glad you did a lot of great work for people, I'm sorry your body isn't 100%. I have spinal stenosis which means I'm in constant pain due to nerve compression, that is made worse by physical fitness. I have a TON of food allergies and stress induced IBS, so I feel you on the metabolism side.

I have a very below average metabolism because of both, I was eating 1200 calories when I finally hit my goal weight of 200 my first round of weight loss, that's less than most women eat in a day.

I'm glad you're happily married and you don't have a husband that objectifies you.

Tropical Wilds · May 2, 2019

Emosoundlogic said:
LOL, yeah I had a nutritionist try to tell me I had an eating disorder because I was trying to be fit. I'm at 15% body fat, I'm not even considered an athlete, I'm no body builder... There are people with WAY harsher diets than mine.

Did your nutritionist give you a direction to go in order to help you manage your disorder?

Yes, please, educate me on how in the 80's and 90's we didn't know that 170 calories per can of soda, that your kid is drinking 5 of a day at least, not to mention the caffeine, wasn't harmful. Also, that a low protein, high fat / sugar diet wasn't harmful.

Well, up until 1991 we thought that liquid calories didn’t add up on the body like it does, which is why there were huge pushes to fluid-based diets. The idea that a lack of protein did anything negative to the body was unheard of, and sodas are traditionally low or no fat, which was the health food gold standard until the late 90s. People didn’t accept that calories were more to blame, the big bad guy was fat and then it was carbs. The idea of healthy fats vs unhealthy was unheard of (and still debated now to be frank), and side effects like neurological disorders and nutrient leeching wasn’t discovered much less accepted until well into the 2000s. An overwhelming majority of people in the US, including the “clean eating” crowd, have no idea about proper nutrient and diet construction.

Tropical Wilds · May 2, 2019

Emosoundlogic said:
Been this way since I was a kid, it's just a personality defect. Some people aren't made to get married. We just have to live lives of disobedience I guess.

I suspect you will find what you see as a defect is actually a gift, but it does hinder your ability to connect on a personal level. That’s not uncommon at all for anybody. The key is learning how to embrace your gift while working to grow in other areas as well. I know I don’t see it as a defect, but a barrier. We all have them.

Emosoundlogic · May 2, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
Ok then. If you realize that this is where you are at the moment psychologically, then it you may need to modify some of the assertions you've thus far made about you're 'actually' being flexible and fairly laid-back.

Being blunt with the wrong people, especially with any woman whom you are attempting to build emotional rapport, is typically an undermining course in communication. And while you may value honesty---or what you conceptualize as honesty---that too may need to be something you learn to reel in a bit if you're trying to build something of a relational quality with a woman. And if you have dark secrets, well............as a Christian you may also want to make sure you're honestly working to improve on whatever fronts those may entail.

...being contractual with people has it's place, particularly in a debate (if that's your thing), but when relating to people in the off-line, real world as it relates to women, you'll need to learn to take a punch and roll with it from time to time. No one is perfect, and I'm sure a potential wife won't be, just as you won't be despite whatever intentions I'm sure you'll have going into it all over the long haul. In marriage, and before the Lord, you'll need to realize that your relationship shouldn't be based on a mere contract between the two of you and on who unloaded the dishes last time, but rather first and foremost, that each of you has a duty (in contract?) with God to each be the best 'you' that you can be, whether or not your spouse is being the best 'she' that she can be.

But if you're on an online forum, and you find yourself in the middle of a swarm of nasty, epistemological dishelved atheists who refuse to use their rational minds to get out of a repetitive state of OCD where they constantly make mountains out of their own deductions in a vaccuum, then feel free to verbally swap them a few times here and there if you need to ... (...oh sorry. I got beside myself there for a moment.)

Alright. Then, you may want to start thinking about ways in which you can change your view of the world, one small step at a time, at least where a potential lady friend (and family) are concerned.

There is a place and time for being 'tough,' but I haven't remained married for 25 years by maintaining 'no holds barred' ultimatums with my wife. As Paul the Apostle alluded to in his passage on marriage, marriage comes with troubles, and you have to be prepared and ready for most of what can come with that BEFORE you enter a marriage.

Yeah, I personally don't want to be married, I don't think it's a good idea... I think I'm 100% guaranteed to end up resenting anyone I married, just as I do my family in ways. I'll fulfill my obligations, but that's just because I'm highly conscientious and maintain traditions and it's the "right" thing to do.

I dunno about the middle of all that, but okay.

I've made plenty of effort for women, they've made 0 effort for me. Hard to find the motivation at this point honestly. Besides, we're talking about diminishing returns, I'm not going to become a "good" guy all the sudden. I can definitely control my behaviors, but I can't control my feelings and personality. She can say something totally stupid and I can ignore it, but that doesn't mean I stop thinking it's stupid, ya know?

FireDragon76 · May 2, 2019

You've got to have emotional intelligence to some degree and know yourself, strengths and weaknesses, before you can even be involve in relationships like that, and genuinely be able to care about other people.

Frankly, many churches are such moralistic places, they can scare you away from doing the serious kind of living you need to do to be a good life-partner to somebody else.

Tropical Wilds · May 2, 2019

Emosoundlogic said:
You started it lol, you obviously have a hot button when it comes to weight, as do I. I am glad you did a lot of great work for people, I'm sorry your body isn't 100%. I have spinal stenosis which means I'm in constant pain due to nerve compression, that is made worse by physical fitness. I have a TON of food allergies and stress induced IBS, so I feel you on the metabolism side.

I have a very below average metabolism because of both, I was eating 1200 calories when I finally hit my goal weight of 200 my first round of weight loss, that's less than most women eat in a day.

I'm glad you're happily married and you don't have a husband that objectifies you.

Spinal conditions are the worst and the management for them is completely lacking. Often the solution is poorly defined or entirely dependent on masking the pain. I wouldn’t pretend I know what your feelings are or how hard that must be, but I do sympathize greatly and hope you find or have found a means to function and celebrate every victory that comes your way, no matter how small.

Emosoundlogic · May 2, 2019

Endeavourer said:
OK, stop that. I hope you are just being tongue in cheek.

I clicked on that link you attached upstream in this thread and was surprised at how attractive you were because of the way you described yourself. Your physical appearance is not your impediment.

I don't know much about that site, and whether when you click the right arrow to see the next pic and the next if those have anything to do with you, or if they are just in some general repository, because the next pics over became gross fast. If those pics are associated with you then, as a woman, if I clicked that link and saw the pics that followed after your picture I wouldn't respond back.

They didn't seem to fit the person posting here on this board, though, so I thought they must not have anything to do with you?

If you give out that link to anyone, I'd put it somewhere else so you can control the other elements that frame her impression on either side of your pic.

Lol no, next brings you to other posters. Just scroll up and down. Yes, everyone tells me I'm very attractive. But, I get almost 0 matches online. So, it's definitely not true. I do appreciate it though. I've been told by women who have dated me that I'm not attractive, so I don't need the false confidence boost, I do appreciate you trying to make me feel better, but honestly, I was born this way, and the physical features I have that are not really appealing are either damage from my childhood or just genetics, so I'm not ashamed of either.

Jonathan Mathews · May 2, 2019

Emosoundlogic said:
So, the bible is pretty clear when it comes to pre-marital sex. It's a sin. Why, that can be debated, but that's not something I want to do. I personally don't have an issue with the idea of abstinence until marriage, there's a pretty good amount of non-biblical proof to support it anyway.

My issue is simple... I think the western, modern church, has failed singles.

Paul makes it quite clear that it is better to marry than to burn with desire. However, in that day, a man such as myself, could literally buy a wife. I make very good money.

My issue is, people in general, especially women (it seems to me) want to date for long extended periods of time before they're even willing to consider marriage.

I am 33 years old. I had it rough getting started, let's just say I was sexualized at a very young age without even knowing what it was, and then given unrestricted internet access that you can imagine created problems for me.

I've been a Christian since I was like 5, and I've wrestled with this issue since I was like 16. Not trying to dig up years and years of therapy, but I'm not a typical guy, I have a lot of damage in this area.

Now days if I want to get married, assuming I can even find a woman that wants to date me (you'd be surprised how much of a struggle it is to find one), I am looking at months of "dating" before we are in a "relationship" followed by most likely years, and then finally we get married and I am finally allowed to have sex.

I personally don't think that's how it was meant to be, and I think we unduly suffer because of it. I think the church has abandoned us in this area.

I've witnessed church services in Africa where many men and women want to be married, so the Prophet will have them come forward and will match couples right there in Church. Prophet TB Joshua is one of them. I thought this was wonderful.

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