Is Baptismal Regeneration False?

Saint Steven · May 1, 2019

JLB777 said:
Enduring to the end has everything to do with salvation.

Have you failed IN ANY WAY to endure to the end? What are the consequences?

Saint Steven · May 1, 2019

Phil W said:
So, enduring till the end was only for the Jews.

I think you are fooling yourself into an accommodation for sinning, after allegedly accepting the Lord as your...master.

The passage from which you snipped your quote has nothing to do with the salvation of your soul.

JLB777 · May 1, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Have you failed IN ANY WAY to endure to the end? What are the consequences?

Absolutely not.

I believe Jesus Christ is Lord and Christ, the Son of the living God.

My Savior.

The only way to God.

JLB

JLB777 · May 1, 2019

Saint Steven said:
The passage from which you snipped your quote has nothing to do with the salvation of your soul.

But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

So you’re saying that being saved has nothing to do with salvation?

That’s a new one.

JLB

Saint Steven · May 1, 2019

JLB777 said:
But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

So you’re saying that being saved has nothing to do with salvation?

That’s a new one.

JLB

What does it mean in context?
If it really means salvation as you claim, then who does this scripture say will be saved?
To which you will replay, "He who endures to the end!"
I will ask again, "What does it mean in context?"

Phil W · May 1, 2019

nolidad said:
If you had read my posts here you would know that I think no such thing!

I don't know about that, as you did say "When we sin...", as if it is a certain thing.

I do not believe in water baptism for regeneration, but the Spirit baptism which makes us a new creature- being conformed into the image of God and that same Spirit teaches and urges us on to ever greater holiness.

Would you please show the scriptures you are using here?

Phil W · May 1, 2019

JLB777 said:
It has to do with eternal salvation anytime, and anywhere Christians are being persecuted and are tempted to renounce Jesus Christ as Lord in order to save their natural life.

It was true during the first century and it is true today.

Don't men renounce Jesus Christ as Lord every time they commit sin?
I mean, they have raised some thing above Jesus' lordship.

Phil W · May 1, 2019

Saint Steven said:
The passage from which you snipped your quote has nothing to do with the salvation of your soul.

Why would the Jewish path to "the end" be any different than the Gentile's?

Saint Steven · May 2, 2019

Phil W said:
Why would the Jewish path to "the end" be any different than the Gentile's?

That would assume that everyone will live in the end times in Israel.

mark kennedy · May 2, 2019

John the Ex-Baptist said:
If you are someone opposed to the doctrine of baptismal regeneration, please give your reasons for being opposed, and preferably back up your argument from the text of Scripture.

I wouldn't say false exactly, just misguided. Christians down through the ages have believed that sort of thing. The early xhurch put a lot of emphasis on baptisn, you couldn't participate in the Lord's Supper. I think it's very important for the believer but regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit. With out being indwelled by the Spirit you just go into the water dry and come out wet.

JLB777 · May 2, 2019

Saint Steven said:
If it really means salvation as you claim, then who does this scripture say will be saved?

Those who endure to the end.

It’s means in context, those who continue to believe, while under persecution.

They continue in the faith, even unto death.

But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:18-19

Luke says it this way -

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:13

The Bible uses “believe” and “endure” interchangeably.

It simply means a Christian who endures persecution and continues to believe, refusing to renounce Christ as Messiah and Lord even in the face of death.

And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”
Acts 14:21-22

JLB

JLB777 · May 2, 2019

Phil W said:
Don't men renounce Jesus Christ as Lord every time they commit sin?
I mean, they have raised some thing above Jesus' lordship.

No.

Renouncing Jesus as Lord, in which they no longer believe, and renounce Him as Lord and Messiah, to save their natural life, will result in losing your eternal life, in which you can never be brought back to repentance.

This is the main context of Hebrews.

Judaism was the religion that persecuted the early Church, trying to get the believing Jews to turn back to Judaism, which does not believe Jesus is the Messiah.

Judaism even to this day, calls Jesus a false prophet and a deceiver.

Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 1 John 2:22

JLB

John the Ex-Baptist · May 2, 2019

After reading through this thread, I have heard many objections that in years gone by I would have used myself many times over. Especially things such as the distinction between water baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Even now, not just I but most Lutherans would agree, that being baptised in water alone is simply as powerful in and of itself as a shower or bath. Rather it is the regeneration worked through the Holy Spirit that brings to us eternal life. And before anyone replies "not the Lutherans I know..." etc., here is what is actually written in the Book of Concord (Small Catechism on Holy Baptism)

First
[1–2] What is baptism? Answer:
Baptism is not simply plain water. Instead it is water enclosed in God’s command and connected with God’s Word.
[3] What then is this Word of God? Answer:
[4] Where our LORD Christ says in Matthew 28[:19*], “Go into all the world, teach all nations,78 and baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

Second
[5–6] What gifts or benefits does baptism grant? Answer:
It brings about forgiveness of sins, redeems from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe it, as the words and promise of God declare.
[7–8] What are these words and promise of God? Answer:
Where our LORD Christ says in Mark 16[:16*], “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be damned.”

Third
[9–10] How can water do such great things? Answer:
Clearly the water does not do it, but the Word of God, which is with and alongside the water, and faith, which trusts this Word of God in the water. For without the Word of God the water is plain water and not a baptism, but with the Word of God it is a baptism, that is, a grace-filled water of life and a “bath of the new birth in the Holy Spirit,” as St. Paul says to Titus in chapter 3[:5–8*], “through the bath of rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit, which he richly poured out over us through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that through that very grace we may be righteous and heirs in hope of eternal life. This is surely most certainly true.”

To paraphrase my pastor, "Although God is omnipresent, we must seek Him where He has promised to be found." This is why the Lutheran view of baptism is not a work we carry out in obedience, but it is rather a work of God we surrender to in faith, that unites us with Christ in His death and resurrection life. It becomes the tangible and personal connection point for the believer, to the benefits of forgiveness and eternal life Christ secured upon the Cross. It is what changes the good news of Christ dying upon the Cross for the sins of the whole world, to Christ giving His life as a ransom for me personally.

The fact is that in all types of churches, there is a constant craving for the certainty of salvation. Not so much that we doubt that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is sufficient to forgive our sins, but that we often have nagging doubts that we are truly of those He died for. I remember in my years in the charismatic church, and the pentecostal church I attended, this certainty could be sought after in the decision I made, or whether I spoke in tongues etc.. Or in my time in the Reformed Baptist church, that evidence was sought in a progressively more holy life. But the common thing was that it was always something "in me" rather than outside of me. I know this would be denied in reformed circles due to the teaching of the Sovereignty of God in salvation etc., but the evidence that I am personally of the elect (which troubles many Calvinists), is usually to look for a sanctified and holy life for comfort.

The primary difference I have found in the Lutheran church is that all our comfort is outside of ourselves (extra nos). If we are plagued with doubt and unbelief etc., especially when coupled with the grossness of our own sinfulness at times, we have a clear and tangible place to look to for our own comfort. We can know that, regardless of how things may appear to us, in our baptism we already died with Christ, and continue to do so daily. Because His Word says so. We can know that we have the Holy Spirit, not because of any outward manifestation, but because His Word promised He would be given to us in our baptism.

As Lutherans we do not look at our baptism as a one off work that we carried out in obedience to God, but rather as I said earlier, it is a work that God does to us in uniting us to His Son, both in His death and life, and equips us with the gift of the Holy Spirit as a deposit that guarantees the life which is to come. This is our daily hope, and in our baptism we die daily to ourselves, and are raised again with Christ according to the promises of His Word.

JLB777 · May 2, 2019

John the Ex-Baptist said:
being baptised in water alone is simply as powerful in and of itself as a shower or bath. Rather it is the regeneration worked through the Holy Spirit that brings to us eternal life.

Amen!

JLB

LoveofTruth · May 2, 2019

John the Ex-Baptist said:
If you are someone opposed to the doctrine of baptismal regeneration, please give your reasons for being opposed, and preferably back up your argument from the text of Scripture.

Water baptism isn’t added to the saving gospel of 1 Cor 15:1-4, to add water baptism there or the Mosaic law or circumcision etc is to make another gospel

“ 1 Corinthians 15:1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”

Also Paul distinguishes baptism and the gospel to the same Corinthians in chapter 1 and said he was not sent to baptize. This shows that water baptism seems to have been a practice of the Jews under the law that extended all through Acts among the Jews as did animal sacrifices and the law and going to the temple among BELIEVING Jewish people who were Christians , read Acts 21:15-26 (KJV).

Also

1 Corinthians 1:17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.”

Jesus even told the Jewish believers at the beginning about Johns OT past water baptism and the difference now when he said

“ Acts 1:5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

Phil W · May 2, 2019

Saint Steven said:
That would assume that everyone will live in the end times in Israel.

That doesn't answer my question.
Why is the Jewish path to salvation different than the Gentile's?
If the Jews must "endure till the end", why wouldn't the Gentiles also need to remain faithfully pure?
I can't believe for a second that the Gentiles DON'T need to endure till the end in order to be saved.

Phil W · May 2, 2019

JLB777 said:
No.
Renouncing Jesus as Lord, in which they no longer believe, and renounce Him as Lord and Messiah, to save their natural life, will result in losing your eternal life, in which you can never be brought back to repentance.
This is the main context of Hebrews.
Judaism was the religion that persecuted the early Church, trying to get the believing Jews to turn back to Judaism, which does not believe Jesus is the Messiah.
Judaism even to this day, calls Jesus a false prophet and a deceiver.
Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 1 John 2:22JLB

So you actually believe that folks who elevate their supposedly dead flesh above the Lord and Creator of the universe have NOT decided to believe something is more important than God?
That's like saying you still love your wife above everything else...while you commit adultery.
It is a lie.

You artificially inflate the word "renounce" in order to ignore the fact that disobedience is renouncement.

Phil W · May 2, 2019

John the Ex-Baptist said:
After reading through this thread, I have heard many objections that in years gone by I would have used myself many times over. Especially things such as the distinction between water baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Even now, not just I but most Lutherans would agree, that being baptised in water alone is simply as powerful in and of itself as a shower or bath. Rather it is the regeneration worked through the Holy Spirit that brings to us eternal life. And before anyone replies "not the Lutherans I know..." etc., here is what is actually written in the Book of Concord (Small Catechism on Holy Baptism)

To paraphrase my pastor, "Although God is omnipresent, we must seek Him where He has promised to be found." This is why the Lutheran view of baptism is not a work we carry out in obedience, but it is rather a work of God we surrender to in faith, that unites us with Christ in His death and resurrection life. It becomes the tangible and personal connection point for the believer, to the benefits of forgiveness and eternal life Christ secured upon the Cross. It is what changes the good news of Christ dying upon the Cross for the sins of the whole world, to Christ giving His life as a ransom for me personally.

The fact is that in all types of churches, there is a constant craving for the certainty of salvation. Not so much that we doubt that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is sufficient to forgive our sins, but that we often have nagging doubts that we are truly of those He died for. I remember in my years in the charismatic church, and the pentecostal church I attended, this certainty could be sought after in the decision I made, or whether I spoke in tongues etc.. Or in my time in the Reformed Baptist church, that evidence was sought in a progressively more holy life. But the common thing was that it was always something "in me" rather than outside of me. I know this would be denied in reformed circles due to the teaching of the Sovereignty of God in salvation etc., but the evidence that I am personally of the elect (which troubles many Calvinists), is usually to look for a sanctified and holy life for comfort.

The primary difference I have found in the Lutheran church is that all our comfort is outside of ourselves (extra nos). If we are plagued with doubt and unbelief etc., especially when coupled with the grossness of our own sinfulness at times, we have a clear and tangible place to look to for our own comfort. We can know that, regardless of how things may appear to us, in our baptism we already died with Christ, and continue to do so daily. Because His Word says so. We can know that we have the Holy Spirit, not because of any outward manifestation, but because His Word promised He would be given to us in our baptism.

As Lutherans we do not look at our baptism as a one off work that we carried out in obedience to God, but rather as I said earlier, it is a work that God does to us in uniting us to His Son, both in His death and life, and equips us with the gift of the Holy Spirit as a deposit that guarantees the life which is to come. This is our daily hope, and in our baptism we die daily to ourselves, and are raised again with Christ according to the promises of His Word.

Without water baptism how are you buried with Christ? (Col 2:11-12)

As you have admitted that your flesh is still alive, ("especially when coupled with the grossness of our own sinfulness at times,"), perhaps you will tell us why you were not killed, buried, and resurrected with Christ "to walk in newness of life"? (Rom 6:3-7)

Phil W · May 2, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
Water baptism isn’t added to the saving gospel of 1 Cor 15:1-4, to add water baptism there or the Mosaic law or circumcision etc is to make another gospel

Hearing, believing, having faith, repenting of sin, confession, and enduring till the end are not listed in 1 Co 2:15 either...does that make them non-essential for salvation?

Saint Steven · May 2, 2019

JLB777 said:
Those who endure to the end.

It’s means in context, those who continue to believe, while under persecution.

They continue in the faith, even unto death.

But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:18-19

Luke says it this way -

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:13

The Bible uses “believe” and “endure” interchangeably.

It simply means a Christian who endures persecution and continues to believe, refusing to renounce Christ as Messiah and Lord even in the face of death.

And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”
Acts 14:21-22

JLB

How can such things be measured?
Who hasn't fallen away in times of temptation?
Are they now lost for not enduring until the end?
Seems so. They didn't endure until the end.

You post is a thinly veiled salvation by works appeal. No thanks.

Is Baptismal Regeneration False?

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