Isaiah 40:22 -- "Globe of the Earth"

Astrophile · Apr 23, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
Dang it that's right. I forgot to ask again.

@FEZZILLA where is your evidence for your claims about atheists starting the Flat Earth beleifs?

I do think that he may have the same sort of definition of "atheists" that the ancient Romans had. They called those that did not worship their gods "atheists". So the first Christians were called atheists by the Romans.

There may be some doubt about this. According to Battling the Gods: Atheism in the Ancient World by Tim Whitmarsh (pp. 239-240), the evidence that the Greeks and Romans called Christians 'atheists' 'comes almost entirely from Christian sources'. The Christians sometimes called worshippers of the traditional gods 'atheists' because they did not worship the Christian god.

Subduction Zone · Apr 23, 2019

Astrophile said:
There may be some doubt about this. According to Battling the Gods: Atheism in the Ancient World by Tim Whitmarsh (pp. 239-240), the evidence that the Greeks and Romans called Christians 'atheists' 'comes almost entirely from Christian sources'. The Christians sometimes called worshippers of the traditional gods 'atheists' because they did not worship the Christian god.

Good point. I am usually a little more careful in my sources.

FEZZILLA · Apr 23, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
So you are not a "masters in translation". You failed again. You demonstrated that you do not understand ancient Greek. Let me explain something to you. No matter what spelling is used it would be "wrong" since Greek has a different alphabet. Gyron or any variation is going to be a transliteration since they use a different alphabet. You failed by using English sources instead of finding a Greek one. This is a rather obvious error on your part. You just lost any credibility.

The word is gyros...not gyron. Gyron is not even a Greek word.

Subduction Zone · Apr 23, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
The word is gyros...not gyron. Gyron is not even a Greek word.

Really? You have a degree in ancient Greek? Did you not at least look at all of the possible noun endings in ancient Greek? There are quite a few. I will take the word of someone with a degree in the field long before I trust a self declared internet "expert".

Even your Greek source was a fail on your part. You used a modern Greek source instead of an ancient Greek source. It does not apply.

And you are still dodging the question about how this was all an atheist plot.

lasthero · Apr 23, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
I am not going to respond to posts that deviate from the topic. You did not answer my question and now you want to deviate from the topic.

You’re the one who keeps bringing it up. Stop saying it if you’re not going to explain it.

Freodin · Apr 23, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
I know more than the source you used. I know that gyron is not a Greek word. It was not used in Isaiah 40:22. You wikipedia link says nothing to support your dubious position.

"Gyron" would be the accusative case of "gyros". That's how languages work that use inflection to denote gramatical cases. As a "master in translation", you should know that.

Freodin · Apr 23, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
Gyron is not a Greek word nor was it ever used in the LXX for Isa.40:22.

Form the text of the Septuagint.

ὁ κατέχων τὸν γῦρον τῆς γῆς καὶ οἱ ἐνοικοῦντες ἐν αὐτῇ ὡς ἀκρίδες ὁ στήσας ὡς καμάραν τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ διατείνας ὡς σκηνὴν κατοικεῗν

Transliterated into the latin alphabet:

"o katéchon tón gýron tís gís kaí oi enoikoúntes en aftí os akrídes o stísas os kamáran tón ouranón kaí diateínas os skinín katoikeḯn"

(Source: Isaiah 40:1 (LXX))

Heck, you even posted that verse in greek. You marked the word. And you didn't notice the "ny" at the end of the word?

Subduction Zone · Apr 23, 2019

Freodin said:
Form the text of the Septuagint.

Transliterated into the latin alphabet:

"o katéchon tón gýron tís gís kaí oi enoikoúntes en aftí os akrídes o stísas os kamáran tón ouranón kaí diateínas os skinín katoikeḯn"

(Source: Isaiah 40:1 (LXX))

Heck, you even posted that verse in greek. You marked the word. And you didn't notice the "ny" at the end of the word?

Thank you so much. When he began to rant about gyro vs gyron etc. I had to look up some ancient Greek and did find an article on how the ending varies, but my knowledge of Greek is all but zero. I had an extremely strong suspicion that this was a case of variation of grammatical endings, but could not go beyond that.

dad · Apr 23, 2019

Freodin said:
Form the text of the Septuagint.

Transliterated into the latin alphabet:

"o katéchon tón gýron tís gís kaí oi enoikoúntes en aftí os akrídes o stísas os kamáran tón ouranón kaí diateínas os skinín katoikeḯn"

(Source: Isaiah 40:1 (LXX))

Heck, you even posted that verse in greek. You marked the word. And you didn't notice the "ny" at the end of the word?

To get some sort of context of the verse and chapter you are focusing on, I have bolded a few items in nearby verses.

Isa 40:
17 All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.

18 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him? 19 The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains. 20 He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: 23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity. 24 Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble. 25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One. 26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.

27 Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the LORD, and my judgment is passed over from my God? 28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

OK, so basically, science has zero hope of searching how God created it all as He says He did. He will blow science and man's wisdom away one day totally. If you want to get into what it says and is really about, you cannot miss the forest for the trees here, and play games trying to make your god sound clever. The Creator God Almighty is saying He is the creator and that you are not only going to be blown away, but truly do not know what you are talking about in even the tiniest way.

Freodin · Apr 23, 2019

dad said:
To get some sort of context of the verse and chapter you are focusing on, I have bolded a few items in nearby verses.

Perhaps your mind has been permanently locked in a different state. But if you come down to our reality for a moment, you might recognize the CONTEXT that my post was made in.

It referred exclusively to Fezzi's claim that a) the word "gyron" is not a greek word and b) that this word doesn't appear in the Septuagint. Both claims are false.

Nothing else was discussed in my posts. No interpretation of this verse given or needed.

If you want to teach atheists how they cannot understand the Bible... maybe you should learn to understand a simple text in English first.

FEZZILLA · Apr 23, 2019

Freodin said:
Form the text of the Septuagint.

Transliterated into the latin alphabet:

"o katéchon tón gýron tís gís kaí oi enoikoúntes en aftí os akrídes o stísas os kamáran tón ouranón kaí diateínas os skinín katoikeḯn"

(Source: Isaiah 40:1 (LXX))

Heck, you even posted that verse in greek. You marked the word. And you didn't notice the "ny" at the end of the word?

Wow. Did you even read my last post?

Septuagint:

ὁ κατέχων τὸν γῦρον τῆς γῆς καὶ οἱ ἐνοικοῦντες ἐν αὐτῇ ὡς ἀκρίδες ὁ στήσας ὡς καμάραν τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ διατείνας ὡς σκηνὴν κατοικεῗν

Its gyros. There is no gyron and gyron is not even a Greek word. I proved it in my last post.

Gyros
https://www.wordsense.eu/γῦρος/#Ancient Greek

Gyro
https://www.wordsense.eu/gyro/#Latin

"gyro (Latin)
Origin & history
From gȳrus‎ ("circle"), from Ancient Greek γῦρος‎
Pronunciation

(Classical) IPA: /ˈɡʏː.roː/

Verb

I turn in a circle, wheel around, rotate.
I circle, revolve around."

Latin Vulgate:

"qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum."

This is not gyron. Its anther variant of gyrus...the same word.

Gyrum
https://www.wordsense.eu/gyrum/

I will however admit that yesterday that one of the definitions I supplied in my last post was of the genitive γύρου and not the proper γῦρος (masc.). This was a mistake on my part. A mistake made by not paying enough attention to the link. Just like your mistake is not paying enough attention to the reality that no such variant gyron exist.

The word is gyros.

FEZZILLA · Apr 23, 2019

dad said:
To get some sort of context of the verse and chapter you are focusing on, I have bolded a few items in nearby verses.

Isa 40:
17 All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.

18 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him? 19 The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains. 20 He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: 23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity. 24 Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble. 25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One. 26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.

27 Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the LORD, and my judgment is passed over from my God? 28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

OK, so basically, science has zero hope of searching how God created it all as He says He did. He will blow science and man's wisdom away one day totally. If you want to get into what it says and is really about, you cannot miss the forest for the trees here, and play games trying to make your god sound clever. The Creator God Almighty is saying He is the creator and that you are not only going to be blown away, but truly do not know what you are talking about in even the tiniest way.

There are two ways to examine the context of something of interest in the Bible. One way is to examine the context of other verses in the passage as they reflect the nature of the topic. This is the method you chose on your post. Though the method being used in this topic is what the word chuwg means and in what sense was it applied in Hebrew? The word chuwg is a unique word because its a word that only can be applied to the shape of the earth whereas tebel can be applied regionally depending on the sense in which the word is applied. Both words are used to describe the shape of the earth and both are applied in context of God's creation of earth and His dominion over the inhabitants.

Freodin · Apr 23, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
Wow. Did you even read my last post?

Septuagint:

ὁ κατέχων τὸν γῦρον τῆς γῆς καὶ οἱ ἐνοικοῦντες ἐν αὐτῇ ὡς ἀκρίδες ὁ στήσας ὡς καμάραν τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ διατείνας ὡς σκηνὴν κατοικεῗν

Its gyros. There is no gyron and gyron is not even a Greek word. I proved it in my last post.

Gyros
https://www.wordsense.eu/γῦρος/#Ancient Greek

Gyro
https://www.wordsense.eu/gyro/#Latin

"gyro (Latin)
Origin & history
From gȳrus‎ ("circle"), from Ancient Greek γῦρος‎
Pronunciation

(Classical) IPA: /ˈɡʏː.roː/

Verb

I turn in a circle, wheel around, rotate.

I circle, revolve around."

Latin Vulgate:

"qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum."

This is not gyron. Its anther variant of gyrus...the same word.

Gyrum
https://www.wordsense.eu/gyrum/

I will however admit that yesterday that one of the definitions I supplied in my last post was of the genitive γύρου and not the proper γῦρος (masc.). This was a mistake on my part. A mistake made by not paying enough attention to the link. Just like your mistake is not paying enough attention to the reality that no such variant gyron exist.

The word is gyros.

Excuse me, can you even read Greek?

I mean, it is there. Plain to see.

"ς"... that is a sigma. An "s". It is even there in the link you used. "γῦρος"

But when you look at the quote - the quote that you posted - it is plain to see... "ὁ κατέχων τὸν γῦρον τῆς"

That's a "ν" at the end of the word. A "ny".

How can you not see it?

I have to admit that I am not completely certain on that being the accusative form... my command of ancient greek is very limited and quite rusty.

But I can still read the letters... and the letters say "gyron".

FEZZILLA · Apr 23, 2019

Freodin said:
Excuse me, can you even read Greek?

I mean, it is there. Plain to see.

"ς"... that is a sigma. An "s". It is even there in the link you used. "γῦρος"

But when you look at the quote - the quote that you posted - it is plain to see... "ὁ κατέχων τὸν γῦρον τῆς"

That's a "ν" at the end of the word. A "ny".

How can you not see it?

I have to admit that I am not completely certain on that being the accusative form... my command of ancient greek is very limited and quite rusty.

But I can still read the letters... and the letters say "gyron".

For the last time. The word translated from the Hebrew chuwg is the Greek word γῦρον. That is the word used in the verse. There are variants which if applied only change the sense without altering the shape. However, Gyron is not a Greek word and all you have do is read the verse and see there is no gyron there! The only Greek variants of gyros is gyro and gyre.

Definition of gyro
https://www.wordsense.eu/gyro/#Latin

Definition of gyros
https://www.wordsense.eu/γῦρος/#Ancient Greek

Definition of gyre
https://www.wordsense.eu/gyre/

And...the definition of gyron
https://www.wordsense.eu/gyron/

Definition of GYRON

Freodin · Apr 23, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
For the last time. The word translated from the Hebrew chuwg is the Greek word γῦρον. That is the word used in the verse. There are variants which if applied only change the sense without altering the shape. However, Gyron is not a Greek word and all you have do is read the verse and see there is no gyron there! The only Greek variants of gyros is gyro and gyre.

Definition of gyro
https://www.wordsense.eu/gyro/#Latin

Definition of gyros
https://www.wordsense.eu/γῦρος/#Ancient Greek

Definition of gyre
https://www.wordsense.eu/gyre/

And...the definition of gyron
https://www.wordsense.eu/gyron/

Definition of GYRON

Excuse me, do you not get it? I cannot make it clearer.
Can you read Greek?

Look what you wrote here:
"The word translated from the Hebrew chuwg is the Greek word γῦρον."
Is it? What you wrote there does read "gyron".

But for a correct translation, you don't only need the word, you need to know which case it is in the sentence.
Greek is an inflected (or fusional) language... it uses different forms of a word to denotate the different cases, the function of a word in a sentence. This is a huge difference from English, which uses word order to determine the function of a word.

The word - nominative singular - that is translated from "chuwg" is "γῦρος"... "gyros". That "ς" at the end of the word is the greek letter "sigma", in the variant used at the end of a word.

But what is in the text - in all the quotes you presented - is the "γῦρον" - "gyron".

That isn't a "word". It is a wordform. And in this case, it would indeed by an accusative form.

Again, I am not completely certain on the case. It should be, "γῦρον" is the object of the sentence here. But I might be wrong... as I said, ancient greek is not my forte.

If you cannot see the very obvious difference between "γῦρος" and "γῦρον"... then I cannot help you.

Subduction Zone · Apr 23, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
Wow. Did you even read my last post?

Septuagint:

ὁ κατέχων τὸν γῦρον τῆς γῆς καὶ οἱ ἐνοικοῦντες ἐν αὐτῇ ὡς ἀκρίδες ὁ στήσας ὡς καμάραν τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ διατείνας ὡς σκηνὴν κατοικεῗν

Its gyros. There is no gyron and gyron is not even a Greek word. I proved it in my last post.

Gyros
https://www.wordsense.eu/γῦρος/#Ancient Greek

Gyro
https://www.wordsense.eu/gyro/#Latin

"gyro (Latin)
Origin & history
From gȳrus‎ ("circle"), from Ancient Greek γῦρος‎
Pronunciation

(Classical) IPA: /ˈɡʏː.roː/

Verb

I turn in a circle, wheel around, rotate.

I circle, revolve around."

Latin Vulgate:

"qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum."

This is not gyron. Its anther variant of gyrus...the same word.

Gyrum
https://www.wordsense.eu/gyrum/

I will however admit that yesterday that one of the definitions I supplied in my last post was of the genitive γύρου and not the proper γῦρος (masc.). This was a mistake on my part. A mistake made by not paying enough attention to the link. Just like your mistake is not paying enough attention to the reality that no such variant gyron exist.

The word is gyros.

LOL's!! You are making the same error of trying to "prove" something about ancient Greek using modern Greek. No one that understands translation would make such a gross error. And you do not seem to realize that "gyron" is in the text that you supplied. In the Greek alphabet nu or as @Freodin wrote "ny" has an "n" sound. Greek has to be transliterated to English because the letters and the sounds are not quite the same. Your own post has the word "gyron" in ancient Greek.

This now approaching a high school level of error.

And why even bring up the Latin Vulgate, which was of course in Latin, when we are discussing Greek? How on Earth is that supposed to help you?

EDIT: This might help I did a copy and Google search of the last letter in "γῦρον" I got the following article on the letter Nu in the Greek alphabet

Nu (letter) - Wikipedia

From that article:

"Its Latin equivalent is N, though the lowercase resembles the Roman lowercase v ({\displaystyle \nu }

c15bbbb971240cf328aba572178f091684585468

)."

It appears that you do not understand Greek at all, a nu looks like a v in Roman, but its closest letter is "n". Gyron is the correct transliteration of γῦρον. Someone that was competent about translation would not have made the error that you did. Your self declared mastery appears to be incomplete.

FEZZILLA · Apr 23, 2019

Freodin said:
Excuse me, do you not get it? I cannot make it clearer.
Can you read Greek?

Look what you wrote here:
"The word translated from the Hebrew chuwg is the Greek word γῦρον."
Is it? What you wrote there does read "gyron".

But for a correct translation, you don't only need the word, you need to know which case it is in the sentence.
Greek is an inflected (or fusional) language... it uses different forms of a word to denotate the different cases, the function of a word in a sentence. This is a huge difference from English, which uses word order to determine the function of a word.

The word - nominative singular - that is translated from "chuwg" is "γῦρος"... "gyros". That "ς" at the end of the word is the greek letter "sigma", in the variant used at the end of a word.

But what is in the text - in all the quotes you presented - is the "γῦρον" - "gyron".

That isn't a "word". It is a wordform. And in this case, it would indeed by an accusative form.

Again, I am not completely certain on the case. It should be, "γῦρον" is the object of the sentence here. But I might be wrong... as I said, ancient greek is not my forte.

If you cannot see the very obvious difference between "γῦρος" and "γῦρον"... then I cannot help you.

Please don't try and help me as I most definitely don't need help from people who pretend to things they know nothing of. You failed to provide a single academic link to support your case. You speak on your own authority and no other Greek sources agree with you. Gyron is not a Greek word and all you have done here is try to manipulate simple facts for the purpose of distracting from the facts. In other words, you're trolling which is against CF rules.

FEZZILLA · Apr 23, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
LOL's!! You are making the same error of trying to "prove" something about ancient Greek using modern Greek. No one that understands translation would make such a gross error. And you do not seem to realize that "gyron" is in the text that you supplied. In the Greek alphabet nu or as @Freodin wrote "ny" has an "n" sound. Greek has to be transliterated to English because the letters and the sounds are not quite the same. Your own post has the word "gyron" in ancient Greek.

This now approaching a high school level of error.

And why even bring up the Latin Vulgate, which was of course in Latin, when we are discussing Greek? How on Earth is that supposed to help you?

You are speaking on your own authority. I have already debunked Carrier's fraudulent claim with real definitions.

Subduction Zone · Apr 23, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
Please don't try and help me as I most definitely don't need help from people who pretend to things they know nothing of. You failed to provide a single academic link to support your case. You speak on your own authority and no other Greek sources agree with you. Gyron is not a Greek word and all you have done here is try to manipulate simple facts for the purpose of distracting from the facts. In other words, you're trolling which is against CF rules.

No, no, you can't play that game. I did provide a source far superior to you. You have only used equivocation fallacies and have not cited any sources for your claims. By the way check out my edited post. I did use a source that is far more valid than any that you have used.

Subduction Zone · Apr 23, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
You are speaking on your own authority. I have already debunked Carrier's fraudulent claim with real definitions.

No, you only demonstrated your own ignorance. You made a gross error, you thought that a nu was equivalent to a v when transliterated. I did edit my post to find more support. You made a mistake that a first year student in college level Greek would not make.

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