Making The Sign of The Cross (Videos and Early Church Father / Writer Quotes)

JacksBratt · Apr 3, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
So? Unless you subscribe to a regulative principle, that's not an issue. There's nothing that forbids it, either. It's just another way to pray.

Does prayer have power?

Folding your hands can be a pious practice. We usually do that when we use a kneeler at church to pray. So is holding your hands facing upward, which is an even more ancient way to pray (our pastor still does this, and sometimes some people in our congregation do as well). Both have their place.

Yes prayer has power... when driving, kneeling, standing, sitting... where ever.. prayer has power.

Yes, there are lots of different hand gestures.... none are prerequisites for anything.

Jonaitis · Apr 3, 2019

JacksBratt said:
I understand that.. Truly I do.

What I said was.. If you were to wear a cross, around your neck at the time of Christ's crucifixion.. people would have looked at you like you were insane or morbid..

At that time, it was not the symbol of Christ's work.. it would be the same as wearing a guillotine symbol around your neck today.

I don't like wearing the cross for the fact that everyone wears one, regardless if they are Christian or not. I might wear one again someday, because I do like the symbol and how it reminds me (in my mind) what Christ did on my behalf there at the Roman "guillotine."

But you make a good point.

FireDragon76 · Apr 3, 2019

JacksBratt said:
Yes prayer has power... when driving, kneeling, standing, sitting... where ever.. prayer has power.

Yes, there are lots of different hand gestures.... none are prerequisites for anything.

I guess you have a kind of quasi-gnostic spirituality where you think prayer or blessing only involves words and can't involve the human body.

Jonaitis · Apr 3, 2019

JacksBratt said:
Yes prayer has power... when driving, kneeling, standing, sitting... where ever.. prayer has power.

Yes, there are lots of different hand gestures.... none are prerequisites for anything.

It seems that people reduce the power of prayer to these movements and gestures, that's when it becomes a problem.

FireDragon76 · Apr 3, 2019

Jonaitis said:
I don't like wearing the cross for the fact that everyone wears one, regardless if they are Christian or not. I might wear one again someday, because I do like the symbol and how it reminds me (in my mind) what Christ did on my behalf there at the Roman "guillotine."

But you make a good point.

How do you know they aren't a Christian? Just because they don't conform to your ideals of one?

FireDragon76 · Apr 3, 2019

Jonaitis said:
It seems that people reduce the power of prayer to these movements and gestures, that's when it becomes a problem.

I don't see that at all. I have just made a sign of the cross in the past when I felt I should pray, but did not have words to do so. And it's a very simple way to pray and to remember the Cross and the blessings that God gives us through it.

Monk Brendan · Apr 4, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
I suspect alot of Lutherans there do, and they have been there for centuries. My pastor was actually baptized in a Ukrainian church in Pennsylvania.

In my own congregation, some people do make the sign of the cross still, but we would never force anyone to do so. The pastor also makes the sign of the cross over us in declaring the Absolution.

I've seen American Lutherans do so.

W2L · Apr 4, 2019

I bear my cross

JacksBratt · Apr 4, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
I guess you have a kind of quasi-gnostic spirituality where you think prayer or blessing only involves words and can't involve the human body.

That's not what I'm saying... I'm saying that it's fine to do... just don't tell people that it's necessary.

FireDragon76 · Apr 4, 2019

JacksBratt said:
That's not what I'm saying... I'm saying that it's fine to do... just don't tell people that it's necessary.

We don't teach that it's necessary, merely one form of piety that is traditional and ancient. Unless something can be shown through Scriptures and clear reason to be wrong, we are not at liberty to prohibit it.

Root of Jesse · Apr 4, 2019

JacksBratt said:
Can you post the verse and indicate where, taken in context.. they are said to have made the sign of the cross?

Making the sign of the cross is not doctrine, but neither is most prayer. Show me a verse where you have to say 'Father God' every sentence of your prayer. Matthew 28:19 shows the formula. We believe Matthew's Church used the formula for baptism.

Root of Jesse · Apr 4, 2019

JacksBratt said:
I understand that.. Truly I do.

What I said was.. If you were to wear a cross, around your neck at the time of Christ's crucifixion.. people would have looked at you like you were insane or morbid..

At that time, it was not the symbol of Christ's work.. it would be the same as wearing a guillotine symbol around your neck today.

If you had worn a cross around your neck after the crucifixion, either the Jews or the Romans would have killed you.
BTW, ever been in the catacombs in Rome? Crosses scratched on nearly every tomb. Which is where we get our cross on gravestones, I might add.

Root of Jesse · Apr 4, 2019

JacksBratt said:
I get that.. I was responding to (at least I think you are referring to my post inquiring about biblical support for "signing" the cross) that the term about the cross, in the context given in the post in question, was in regards to the words about Christ's work on the cross..

I have never seen any scripture that tell us to perform the sign of the cross in front of our bodies.

I see no problem with people doing it... I just don't like people telling others that it has any sort of significance in enhancing prayer or any "power".

Kind of like folding our hands to pray... I guess.... (I was told that telling kids to do this..kept them form poking and pinching other kids and kept them focused on the prayer.... IDK)

Also, FWIW, the sign of the cross in early Christianity was a secret high sign.
It has the same power any other prayer does.

Root of Jesse · Apr 4, 2019

Jonaitis said:
I don't like wearing the cross for the fact that everyone wears one, regardless if they are Christian or not. I might wear one again someday, because I do like the symbol and how it reminds me (in my mind) what Christ did on my behalf there at the Roman "guillotine."

But you make a good point.

I wear a monstrance around my neck rather than a crucifix. It's actually the same thing, but it's unusual.

JacksBratt · Apr 4, 2019

Root of Jesse said:
Making the sign of the cross is not doctrine, but neither is most prayer. Show me a verse where you have to say 'Father God' every sentence of your prayer. Matthew 28:19 shows the formula. We believe Matthew's Church used the formula for baptism.

Nobody here is stating how to do such a thing.. saying "Father God" after every sentence.

Root of Jesse · Apr 4, 2019

JacksBratt said:
Nobody here is stating how to do such a thing.. saying "Father God" after every sentence.

Well, to be fair, nobody is praying formal prayer right now, here, but it's a common practice, almost any time I hear Protestants praying formally. Even over meals. And I'm not criticizing, but it seems to be a formula they use, which is not prescribed in Scripture.

Ing Bee · Apr 4, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
I wonder sometimes where peoples Christian consciences have gone when they say stuff like this. Scorning the Cross is simply not recognizable as Christian to anybody who has actually studied history. It was rather heretics and schismatics that embraced such notions, as the Watchtower Society did.

We venerate the Cross and use the sign of the Cross and wear the Cross to remind us of the One who conquered sin and death through his suffering.

Indeed! In John's Gospel, Christ's crucifixion is synonymous with his enthronement. An in 1 Corintians 1:23, Paul identifies the crucifixion as the immovable center of what he preached even though it is "foolishness" and a "stumbling block" to some.

W2L · Apr 4, 2019

Root of Jesse said:
Well, to be fair, nobody is praying formal prayer right now, here, but it's a common practice, almost any time I hear Protestants praying formally. Even over meals. And I'm not criticizing, but it seems to be a formula they use, which is not prescribed in Scripture.

Define formally. To be thankful is commanded and seen in scripture

JacksBratt · Apr 4, 2019

Root of Jesse said:
Well, to be fair, nobody is praying formal prayer right now, here, but it's a common practice, almost any time I hear Protestants praying formally. Even over meals. And I'm not criticizing, but it seems to be a formula they use, which is not prescribed in Scripture.

I agree, I have heard this particular pattern of repetition... Not much of a fan of things like this... The less repetition and formulae.... the better as far as I'm concerned.

thecolorsblend · Apr 4, 2019

JacksBratt said:
I understand that.. Truly I do.

What I said was.. If you were to wear a cross, around your neck at the time of Christ's crucifixion.. people would have looked at you like you were insane or morbid..

At that time, it was not the symbol of Christ's work.. it would be the same as wearing a guillotine symbol around your neck today.

It was, in fact, a symbol of Our Lord's work. But it was a symbol which used primarily by anti-Christian forces going at least as far back as the second century. In part, their agenda was to discredit Christianity in the eyes of would-be converts by associating it with a dishonorable form of execution like crucifixion.

There really is no modern day equivalent to that. Certainly not a guillotine.

Making The Sign of The Cross (Videos and Early Church Father / Writer Quotes)

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