How could an angel rebel against God?

Ing Bee · Mar 27, 2019

Romans 8 said:
If God created all the angels, and Lucifer was one of His brightest ones, how could he rebel? Did God make a mistake in creating Lucifer? God is perfect, so how could He make something like the angel Lucifer that would later rebel? And not only Lucifer, but 1/3 of the angels went with him. And these angels are now demons. They are the complete opposite of God's angels. They no longer have any of God's characteristics within them. They are pure evil. Did God withdraw all of His presence from them and they turned into angel opposites? Evil did not exist before this. God for knew that Adam would sin. So why not Lucifer? Was this supposed to happen? Was this a mistake? I have come to the conclusion that we cannot know the answers to this. It's probably part of God's plan for us to think about from this exact perspective and to chalk it up as "just trust in Him".

Long response short: the OP is peppered with assumptions that are not supported in the biblical texts. (e.g. nature of sin, nature of angels as 'perfect', 'demons' as opposite of angels, no longer any characteristics of God/pure evil, the nature of freewill in God's purposes, etc.) The biblical authors have a much broader and deeper picture of spiritual beings than modern western churches typically engage with.

I recommend Dr. Michael S. Heiser's books Unseen Realm and Angels for a full-orbed understanding based on cutting edge biblical scholarship. For an overview of Heiser's scholarship on the Divine Council visit his website.

Additionally, The Bible Project's YouTube channel is doing a series on divine beings and Heiser is the consultant on the series. They are doing some great discussion on their podcast of the show as well.

Natsumi Lam · Mar 27, 2019

Sabertooth said:
If they are, Lucifer is a strong "cautionary tale" to discourage further revolts.

They aren't fallen as a [species?]. They don't have the same inborn inclination to sin that we are born with.

How can you be sure?

LouiseChar · Mar 27, 2019

There are a lot of times you can try to apply human logic to answer questions the bible doesn't give answers to but then it's good to remember- Deuteronomy 29:29"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law." Let us utilise what we have, stop overthinking the in betweens as that can lead to downfall. Maybe that's even how those that profess to have believed before now say they are Atheists-because they just couldn't find the answers to the in betweens.

Romans 8 · Mar 27, 2019

thecolorsblend said:
St. Paul wrote "know ye not that we shall judge angels?" I think one reason for that is because the angels only know one mode of being. They're either all good or all evil.

But mankind's slide into sin isn't absolute. We're not completely ruined. At a minimum, we are sinful but can still be used by God to achieve His purposes. No angel can make that claim.

We know good from personal experience and also sin from personal experience. Again, no angel can match that claim.

We can choose freely. Angels can't choose freely.

Interesting. Because mankind is coming from sin, then we probably won't be able to fall back into it?

thecolorsblend · Mar 27, 2019

Romans 8 said:
Interesting. Because mankind is coming from sin, then we probably won't be able to fall back into it?

I think it's about knowledge. We ate the fruit. We now have the knowledge of good and evil. It's part of the inherited human condition now.

We will be redeemed some day but that awareness will stay with us.

Angels don't have it. Fallen angels don't know what it is to be good. Good angels don't know what it is to be fallen. We are fallen but we have knowledge of both good and evil.

As you know, we have been bought with a price. After we are redeemed, I think it can be logically argued that we could possibly exist on a different (higher?) plane than angels do because they only know one mode of being whereas we know both good and evil, AND we will have been redeemed by the precious blood of the Lamb.

When the faithful experience the Beatific Vision and see God's face, we will be as utterly faithful and obedient to God as any of the good angels. But unlike the good angels, we will have full knowledge of good and evil, which is something they can't possibly know.

Sabertooth · Mar 27, 2019

Natsumi Lam said:
How can you be sure?

They are not born of a common, fallen ancestor as we are. By all indications, they are not "born" at all, but rather, created spontaneously.

We know there are no "parent" angels producing "child" angels, because Jesus said,

"For in the resurrection [people] neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven." Matthew 22:30 NKJV

Romans 8 · Mar 27, 2019

thecolorsblend said:
I think it's about knowledge. We ate the fruit. We now have the knowledge of good and evil. It's part of the inherited human condition now.

We will be redeemed some day but that awareness will stay with us.

Angels don't have it. Fallen angels don't know what it is to be good. Good angels don't know what it is to be fallen. We are fallen but we have knowledge of both good and evil.

As you know, we have been bought with a price. After we are redeemed, I think it can be logically argued that we could possibly exist on a different (higher?) plane than angels do because they only know one mode of being whereas we know both good and evil, AND we will have been redeemed by the precious blood of the Lamb.

When the faithful experience the Beatific Vision and see God's face, we will be as utterly faithful and obedient to God as any of the good angels. But unlike the good angels, we will have full knowledge of good and evil, which is something they can't possibly know.

I remember I read this. It was stated that because we died, were buried, and resurrected with Christ, we follow him back up to the father which is above the angels.

What do you mean that fallen angels didn't know good? Before they fell they knew good. Or, are you saying they were created as evil angels?

thecolorsblend · Mar 27, 2019

Romans 8 said:
I remember I read this. It was stated that because we died, were buried, and resurrected with Christ, we follow him back up to the father which is above the angels.

What do you mean that fallen angels didn't know good? Before they fell they knew good. Or, are you saying they were created as evil angels?

I think angels were created and then they were all presented with a choice: serve God (eg, good) or reject God (eg, evil). After that, their commitment to good or to evil became absolute. They were nothing (in a philosophical sense) before. But after they made their choices, they could never be anything else.

The angels who chose to serve God were, I think, shown God's face, the Beatific Vision. Their goodness is absolute and complete. The good angels cannot do anything except obey and serve God now. Because when you see God's face, your entire being is made complete. You belong to Him personally, forever. Right now, we belong to Him forever but only through faith. And faith is wonderful. But faith is still just a shadow compared to seeing God's face. And the faithful will see God's face. Once we do, there will be no going back. Ever.

I would similarly suggest that the fallen angels, having rejected God, were themselves rejected BY God. They're evil now. They can't be anything except evil. They may even be evil with each other for all I know. But their evil is complete and absolute. Their only destiny is ultimately punishment. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that the fallen angels know there's nothing left for them now except punishment and I don't think they would have it any other way. They made their choice and they're committed to it.

The good angels don't pity the fallen ones. And I don't think the fallen ones envy the good ones. Both sides simply are and they're both okay with that.

Brian Mcnamee · Mar 27, 2019

Romans 8 said:
If that's the case, do you think the angels are still on that "footing"?

probably not. we are told in the Resurrection we will be raised incorruptible and we will be purged of our old nature. Seems the angels had a one time test and that was it. We will not be as it were in double jeopardy worrying if we will ever fall again and I suppose the angels are already sealed the same way. I have no proof for the angles but scripture says we put off the old nature and will live forever with the new. It seems the angels started with a pure nature and traded it for bad and after that initial trial sides have been taken and destiny's determined.

Romans 8 · Mar 27, 2019

thecolorsblend said:
I think angels were created and then they were all presented with a choice: serve God (eg, good) or reject God (eg, evil). After that, their commitment to good or to evil became absolute. They were nothing (in a philosophical sense) before. But after they made their choices, they could never be anything else.

The angels who chose to serve God were, I think, shown God's face, the Beatific Vision. Their goodness is absolute and complete. The good angels cannot do anything except obey and serve God now. Because when you see God's face, your entire being is made complete. You belong to Him personally, forever. Right now, we belong to Him forever but only through faith. And faith is wonderful. But faith is still just a shadow compared to seeing God's face. And the faithful will see God's face. Once we do, there will be no going back. Ever.

I would similarly suggest that the fallen angels, having rejected God, were themselves rejected BY God. They're evil now. They can't be anything except evil. They may even be evil with each other for all I know. But their evil is complete and absolute. Their only destiny is ultimately punishment. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that the fallen angels know there's nothing left for them now except punishment and I don't think they would have it any other way. They made their choice and they're committed to it.

The good angels don't pity the fallen ones. And I don't think the fallen ones envy the good ones. Both sides simply are and they're both okay with that.

I've never heard this I find it interesting and plausible. It makes sense that the evil angels never knew good. Otherwise, I can't understand how they could fall away. And not just fall away, but become thoroughly evil. Also if they knew good, then they would know good and evil like us, and we know they do not know good and evil.

I'm not sure how this holds up to scripture, and they are called fallen angels, so where/how did they fall? This is new to me so I have to think about it some more and research more, but this is fascinating thank you!

Romans 8 · Mar 27, 2019

Brian Mcnamee said:
probably not. we are told in the Resurrection we will be raised incorruptible and we will be purged of our old nature. Seems the angels had a one time test and that was it. We will not be as it were in double jeopardy worrying if we will ever fall again and I suppose the angels are already sealed the same way. I have no proof for the angles but scripture says we put off the old nature and will live forever with the new. It seems the angels started with a pure nature and traded it for bad and after that initial trial sides have been taken and destiny's determined.

I suppose it could have gone down like that. I can't stand trying to fathom eternity it gives me a headache. I agree that we will be raised incorruptible. The sacrifices Jesus made on the cross for us are unfathomable. He was humiliated, beaten, tortured, murdered. Jesus for the first time was forsaken by His father, all this for us. It's insane! This is God doing this for us. We are the apple of our father's eye. Just wow!

Carl Emerson · Mar 28, 2019

Jonaitis said:
I see differences too. For an example, I believe Adam was under a covenant agreement, but not any angel. Adam's race was redeemable, God did not permit angels to be redeemed. So on.

Angels were given a domain and are under a covenant agreement otherwise their rebellion would have been quenched by God the moment it began. Their activities only continue because God never breaks His side of a covenant. When His authority was given to the 12 and the 72 who went out in His name, they fell like lightening. It seems as if at that point their domain in the heavens was taken away to some extent. It is however a matter with little substance in scripture so conjecture remains but little certainty.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

Jonaitis · Mar 28, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
It is however a matter with little substance in scripture so conjecture remains but little certainty.

Yeah, where Scripture is silent I will remain.

Sabertooth · Mar 28, 2019

thecolorsblend said:
I think angels were created and then they were all presented with a choice: serve God (eg, good) or reject God (eg, evil). After that, their commitment to good or to evil became absolute. They were nothing (in a philosophical sense) before. But after they made their choices, they could never be anything else.

At the very least, Lucifer spent time as a good/elevated angel.

SkyWriting · Mar 28, 2019

Romans 8 said:
If God created all the angels, and Lucifer was one of His brightest ones, how could he rebel?

Perfect is not rape or slavery.
Love includes choices who one is "married" to.

DamianWarS · Mar 28, 2019

Romans 8 said:
If God created all the angels, and Lucifer was one of His brightest ones, how could he rebel? Did God make a mistake in creating Lucifer? God is perfect, so how could He make something like the angel Lucifer that would later rebel? And not only Lucifer, but 1/3 of the angels went with him. And these angels are now demons. They are the complete opposite of God's angels. They no longer have any of God's characteristics within them. They are pure evil. Did God withdraw all of His presence from them and they turned into angel opposites? Evil did not exist before this. God for knew that Adam would sin. So why not Lucifer? Was this supposed to happen? Was this a mistake? I have come to the conclusion that we cannot know the answers to this. It's probably part of God's plan for us to think about from this exact perspective and to chalk it up as "just trust in Him".

1) Lucifer is not the name of Satan
2) The Bible is written for humans, not angels so these questions go beyond its scope

Norbert L · Mar 28, 2019

Romans 8 said:
I read recently that when humans go to heaven, we will be above the angels in status. No idea how that assumption was formed, but this is what was claimed.

And yes, praise God and Jesus! We are the elect too right?

It would largely depend on which reading of Deuteronomy 32:8 is more clear about the state of our world. Is it "sons of God" or "sons of Israel"?

Jesus identifies someone as a ruler of this world in John 14:30. Jesus fasting in the wildness is also presented with this, "Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their grandeur. And he said to him, “I will give you all these things if you throw yourself to the ground and worship me.” Matthew 4:8-9 The claim being made by the devil is the kingdoms/nations are owned by him.

The apostle Paul points out what's going on in Ephesians 6:12. He says there are powers that go beyond the earthly realm into the heavenly realm. Basically we can see what goes on with governments across this world, what we don't see is the daily news about what goes on in Heaven. It's not as if Job in that book was completely aware of the conversations and politics in heaven.

Given that Jesus promises the Twelve to rule over Israel, the question of who gets the status to rule over a nation can absolutely be given to men by Jesus.

Romans 8 · Mar 28, 2019

DamianWarS said:
1) Lucifer is not the name of Satan
2) The Bible is written for humans, not angels so these questions go beyond its scope

Yes, I believe that Lucifer was a high level angel before he fell. He's now referred to as Satan. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Root of Jesse · Mar 28, 2019

Romans 8 said:
If God created all the angels, and Lucifer was one of His brightest ones, how could he rebel? Did God make a mistake in creating Lucifer? God is perfect, so how could He make something like the angel Lucifer that would later rebel? And not only Lucifer, but 1/3 of the angels went with him. And these angels are now demons. They are the complete opposite of God's angels. They no longer have any of God's characteristics within them. They are pure evil. Did God withdraw all of His presence from them and they turned into angel opposites? Evil did not exist before this. God for knew that Adam would sin. So why not Lucifer? Was this supposed to happen? Was this a mistake? I have come to the conclusion that we cannot know the answers to this. It's probably part of God's plan for us to think about from this exact perspective and to chalk it up as "just trust in Him".

Free will.

DamianWarS · Mar 28, 2019

Romans 8 said:
Yes, I believe that Lucifer was a high level angel before he fell. He's now referred to as Satan. Correct me if I'm wrong.

source?

lucifer is a Latin word and not from Hebrew or Greek. in the Latin text, the word is mentioned 3 times, Job 11:17, Isa 14:12 and 2Pe 1:19. The latter of which is referring to Christ. Somewhere along the way, English speakers started to pick this up as the name for Satan and didn't translate this into English but retained the Latin translation.

At best Lucifer is a misnomer for Satan like tin foil is a misnomer for aluminum foil (there isn't the slightest amount of tin in aluminum foil but people still call it tin foil). Some people have got this idea that Lucifer was the original name for Satan before his fall and this simply is folklore. Satan is the best and most consistent biblical name to use and I find Lucifer encourages all the myth that surrounds this name that goes far outside of the scope of the bible. Stuff like Dante's Inferno or these images of a goat-like or bat wing-like being. if you want to use a name associated with Isa 14:12 why would you use Latin? look up the Hebrew and use that.

How could an angel rebel against God?

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