How could an angel rebel against God?

[Romans 8]

If God created all the angels, and Lucifer was one of His brightest ones, how could he rebel? Did God make a mistake in creating Lucifer? God is perfect, so how could He make something like the angel Lucifer that would later rebel? And not only Lucifer, but 1/3 of the angels went with him. And these angels are now demons. They are the complete opposite of God's angels. They no longer have any of God's characteristics within them. They are pure evil. Did God withdraw all of His presence from them and they turned into angel opposites? Evil did not exist before this. God for knew that Adam would sin. So why not Lucifer? Was this supposed to happen? Was this a mistake? I have come to the conclusion that we cannot know the answers to this. It's probably part of God's plan for us to think about from this exact perspective and to chalk it up as "just trust in Him".

 

[Jonaitis]

It is safe to say that Satan was on a conditional footing similar to Adam in the Garden, so that he was able to fall by his own will.

 

[Romans 8]

It is safe to say that Satan was on a conditional footing similar to Adam in the Garden, so that he was able to fall by his own will.

If that's the case, do you think the angels are still on that "footing"?

 

[Jonaitis]

If that's the case, do you think the angels are still on that "footing"?

What I think about it may not be a biblically strong argument to most, but I do not see them able to fall anymore. Just as there are an elect of men, there are an elect of angels, some to eternal life and others to eternal punishment. Whatever happened made that distinction. Those that did not fall are secured in Christ in some way by his divine power.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If that's the case, do you think the angels are still on that "footing"?

God did not create angels as programmable robots. He gave them the power to choose. The ones who remained loyal to God chose to do so. There is no reason why they should not choose to remain loyal to God in the future.

 

[Romans 8]

What I think about it may not be a biblically strong argument to most, but I do not see them able to fall anymore. Just as there are an elect of men, there are an elect of angels, some to eternal life and others to eternal punishment. Whatever happened made that distinction. Those that did not fall are secured in Christ in some way by his divine power.

When you say there are an elect of men, do you mean people that God chose in the OT, and the New such as Moses, King David, and the apostles? And would that include people today such as pastors and ministers etc?

Some to eternal life or punishment, is this Calvinism?

 

[thecolorsblend]

If God created all the angels, and Lucifer was one of His brightest ones, how could he rebel? Did God make a mistake in creating Lucifer? God is perfect, so how could He make something like the angel Lucifer that would later rebel? And not only Lucifer, but 1/3 of the angels went with him. And these angels are now demons. They are the complete opposite of God's angels. They no longer have any of God's characteristics within them. They are pure evil. Did God withdraw all of His presence from them and they turned into angel opposites? Evil did not exist before this. God for knew that Adam would sin. So why not Lucifer? Was this supposed to happen? Was this a mistake? I have come to the conclusion that we cannot know the answers to this. It's probably part of God's plan for us to think about from this exact perspective and to chalk it up as "just trust in Him".

I lean towards the idea that angels were created but they were not shown God's face. Having been shown creation, they were asked if they would serve God obediently. Those who said yes experienced the Beatific Vision. These angels will not rebel against God because they cannot rebel against God. They have seen His face and they can only serve and obey Him.

But the angels who said no were cast out. They have never seen God's face. My sense of them is they do not seek redemption and do not especially want it.

It is safe to say that Satan was on a conditional footing similar to Adam in the Garden, so that he was able to fall by his own will.

I don't think I agree with that at all.

Eve ate the fruit because she was deceived by the serpent. Adam did the same because he was also deceived. In each case, somebody else played a role in their fall. It was their fault... but not entirely their fault.

The fallen angels rebelled of their own accord. They could have served and obeyed God. But they chose not to of their own free will. I think their rebellion is of a completely different order than Adam and Eve's.

 

[Sabertooth]

If that's the case, do you think the angels are still on that "footing"?

If they are, Lucifer is a strong "cautionary tale" to discourage further revolts.

They aren't fallen as a [species?]. They don't have the same inborn inclination to sin that we are born with.

 

[Jonaitis]

When you say there are an elect of men, do you mean people that God chose in the OT, and the New such as Moses, King David, and the apostles? And would that include people today such as pastors and ministers etc?

Some to eternal life or punishment, is this Calvinism?

Yes, God did choose people in the OT such as Moses, David, and the apostles to eternal life. Yes, this would include people today such as pastors and ministers.

 

[Jonaitis]

I don't think I agree with that at all.

Eve ate the fruit because she was deceived by the serpent. Adam did the same because he was also deceived. In each case, somebody else played a role in their fall. It was their fault... but not entirely their fault.

The fallen angels rebelled of their own accord. They could have served and obeyed God. But they chose not to of their own free will. I think their rebellion is of a completely different order than Adam and Eve's.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me on this.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I don't expect everyone to agree with me on this.

I can understand that. But just because we don't agree doesn't mean you're wrong, of course. I'm just saying I see some differences between Adam and the devil's situations.

 

[Jonaitis]

I can understand that. But just because we don't agree doesn't mean you're wrong, of course. I'm just saying I see some differences between Adam and the devil's situations.

I see differences too. For an example, I believe Adam was under a covenant agreement, but not any angel. Adam's race was redeemable, God did not permit angels to be redeemed. So on.

 

[Cement]

God did not create angels as programmable robots. He gave them the power to choose. The ones who remained loyal to God chose to do so. There is no reason why they should not choose to remain loyal to God in the future.

I often think why did God not create me to be an Angel so that I would not have to suffer the pain we humans feel and be with God from creation but then I realize that I may have been the one who rebelled and was never given another chance. Please remember to thank Jesus every single second you live because we as Christians are so grateful and blessed to know our Lord and be forgiven. Praise Jesus thank you for cleansing my sins!

 

[Romans 8]

I lean towards the idea that angels were created but not shown God's face. Having been shown creation, they were asked if they would serve God obediently. Those who said yes experienced the Beatific Vision. These angels will not rebel against God because they cannot rebel against God. They have seen His face and they can only serve and obey Him.

But the angels who said no were cast out. They have never seen God's face. My sense of them is they do not seek redemption and do not especially want it.

I've never heard this. Interesting.

Eve ate the fruit because she was deceived by the serpent. Adam did the same because he was also deceived. In each case, somebody else played a role in their fall. It was their fault... but not entirely their fault.

The fallen angels rebelled of their own accord. They could have served and obeyed God. But they chose not to of their own free will. I think their rebellion is of a completely different order than Adam and Eve's.

They both rebelled but Lucifer wanted to become God, Adam disobeyed God. I agree this is different, one being severe to the highest degree.

 

[Romans 8]

I often think why did God not create me to be an Angel so that I would not have to suffer the pain we humans feel and be with God from creation but then I realize that I may have been the one who rebelled and was never given another chance. Please remember to thank Jesus every single second you live because we as Christians are so grateful and blessed to know our Lord and be forgiven. Praise Jesus thank you for cleansing my sins!

I read recently that when humans go to heaven, we will be above the angels in status. No idea how that assumption was formed, but this is what was claimed.

And yes, praise God and Jesus! We are the elect too right?

 

[Cement]

I read recently that when humans go to heaven, we will be above the angels in status. No idea how that assumption was formed, but this is what was claimed.

And yes, praise God and Jesus! We are the elect too right?

I dont know how God elects honestly. I dont think its because of some kind of works we do. Honestly the biggest mystery to me is asking why God loves me? If thinking as if I were in his place I would not even consider myself worthy of such love

 

[thecolorsblend]

If they are, Lucifer is a strong "cautionary tale" to discourage further revolts.

They aren't fallen as a [species?]. They don't have the same inborn inclination to sin that we are born with.

St. Paul wrote "know ye not that we shall judge angels?" I think one reason for that is because the angels only know one mode of being. They're either all good or all evil.

But mankind's slide into sin isn't absolute. We're not completely ruined. At a minimum, we are sinful but can still be used by God to achieve His purposes. No angel can make that claim.

We know good from personal experience and also sin from personal experience. Again, no angel can match that claim.

We can choose freely. Angels can't choose freely.

 

[Sabertooth]

We can choose freely. Angels can't choose freely.

Good ones have, wisely, not experienced evil, but evil ones have experienced being good.

 

[thecolorsblend]

evil ones have experienced being good.

I don't think they have for reasons I elaborated upon in post #11.

 

[Monk Brendan]

If God created all the angels, and Lucifer was one of His brightest ones, how could he rebel? Did God make a mistake in creating Lucifer? God is perfect, so how could He make something like the angel Lucifer that would later rebel? And not only Lucifer, but 1/3 of the angels went with him. And these angels are now demons. They are the complete opposite of God's angels. They no longer have any of God's characteristics within them. They are pure evil. Did God withdraw all of His presence from them and they turned into angel opposites? Evil did not exist before this. God for knew that Adam would sin. So why not Lucifer? Was this supposed to happen? Was this a mistake? I have come to the conclusion that we cannot know the answers to this. It's probably part of God's plan for us to think about from this exact perspective and to chalk it up as "just trust in Him".

The traditional Christian reply has ever been that with their great intelligence, the fallen angels could see the consequences of their rebellion, and chose to rebel anyway.

Don't forget: We live in time, remembering some events as past and anticipating others as future.

God sees everything in His timeless NOW, and is the only one who sees reality as it truly is.