Lutheran/Calvinist/Arminian

file13 said:

However, I think his assertion that Reformed folks are basically products of the enlightenment and are thus too "rational" is patently false.

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file13 said:

Interesting video. Thanks for sharing! I think he did a good job of explaining their POV and I think it's a good reinforcement of what's been said already. I particularly liked his take on the 'P' of tulip from the Lutheran POV. Very interesting!

However, I think his assertion that Reformed folks are basically products of the enlightenment and are thus too "rational" is patently false. Anyone who's read enough Reformed authors will see that they have no issues appealing to mystery when it comes to how God's sovereignty and human will can work together. J.I. Packer is extremely clear on this point (he prefers the term "antimony") in his famous work Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God. Also, his claim that Limited Atonement is not Biblical, but is simply a product of vigorous logical reasoning is simply not true as anyone who's studied the Reformed POV can attest.

Anyways, I think it's pretty clear that both Lutheran and Reformed openly and proudly embrace mystery, paradox, or antimony (if you like). It seems to me that it really boils down to where they embrace the mystery when it comes to soteriology (as we discussed above), not whether they do or not.

So I think the video is helpful for understanding the Lutheran POV, but I think his claims about what Calvinists believe are inaccurate and unfair.

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file13 said:

...Also, his claim that Limited Atonement is not Biblical, but is simply a product of vigorous logical reasoning is simply not true as anyone who's studied the Reformed POV can attest...


...So I think the video is helpful for understanding the Lutheran POV, but I think his claims about what Calvinists believe are inaccurate and unfair.

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MarkRohfrietsch said:

I think we must be mindful that when a Confessional Lutheran views reformed theology, they do so through "Evangelical Catholic" eyes, and is interpreted in light our our theology; likewise, Calvinists, interpret Lutheranism from a Reformed Calvinist POV.

I truly doubt that there is any intent to misrepresent anything here; we all just call em as we see em; and we each see em different!

Oh, thanks for the insight into your theology in this thread.

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kenrapoza said:

Hi there, no polemics = no problem!

There are several main differences between Lutherans and Calvinists. The easiest way to do this is to use the familiar (though imperfect) Calvinist acronym of TULIP to get you started.

Unconditional Election: Here there is partial agreement between the two camps. Both sides agree that God has elected some people to everlasting life and that ultimately God will save His elect. Where we part ways is in regard to the "negative" side of election. Reformed theology teaches that for God to effectually choose some to salvation and ensure that end, the flip side, from logical necessity, is that God must not have chosen others for salvation. Those people are called the reprobate, they are non-elect. The Lutheran position considers this to be a negative predestination and does not agree. This is where Lutheran theology affirms what it agrees is a paradox: God elects some to salvation, but we cannot say anything about the others. (To be honest - I've been involved in this discussion before, and I believe that we are actually both saying essentially the same thing and should acknowledge that. We are saying that God ensures the salvation of others and leaves the rest to their own merits, He does not work evil in their hearts.)

Hope some of that helps!

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Lawrence7 said:

Another late post to an old thread, but still quite relevant. As I continue my studies of comparative religion.



As a Lutheran, I was never taught that "God elects some to salvation, ..."

I am taught that God elects all to Salvation via Jesus' death and resurrection. The paradox is that in our sinful condition none of us are worth to accept. The Holy Spirit is now the critical actor in building in us the Faith and then Repentance necessary for Salvation. Again, no work of our own, all the work of God.

The Holy Spirit infuses with our sinful spirit, cleansing our spirit to Holiness. There is no work on our part that makes this happen. This action is solely God’s part. From this point forward our will is now able to choose properly and we can now work with God in accordance with His direct guidance via the Holy Spirit.

This follows the pattern of Jesus, born both Physical Man and Spiritual God. We now exist in God’s likeness with the Holy Spirit cleansing our own spirit, while still maintaining our physical human and individual identity. We are still tempted by our flesh just as Jesus was tempted, yet we are now able to resist temptations as Jesus also resisted. Our flesh remains inherently sinful, but no longer controls our will to ultimate selfishness, but rather repentance and faithful worship of God, as reflected in our good choices and deeds to God’s glory rather than ours.

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