Shoud this scripture be considered "Patriarchal?"

Dave-W said:

OR - as in my case, she tries to normally sexual, but all of a sudden on the honeymoon she is blown over by tons of PTSD flashbacks from childhood abuse.

Click to expand...

Another reasonable question.

Seems to me the Scripture cited is about people who want to have sexual relationships, in cases where one is "defrauding" the other to pursue a picture of piety. The sense is: refrain only if you both want to.

It simply isn't about these situations where one party either deceived the other or was herself deceived in a way.

Dave-W said:

So if the husband is NOT abusive, then it is OK to refuse for months and years?

My point here is forcing someone to have sex with you (either by this scripture or other means) is inherently abusive.

Click to expand...

If a guy is a good husband, he won't wan't that sort of relationship.

Dave-W said:

OR - as in my case, she tries to normally sexual, but all of a sudden on the honeymoon she is blown over by tons of PTSD flashbacks from childhood abuse.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I don't think that's all that rare. It's probably more common among certain kinds of conservative Christians who are taught to repress sexuality and to conform to expectations.

That sort of situation is complicated and it would be too easy to give simplistic answers about what a Christian should or should not do.

Dave-W said:

But usually it is a one-sided decision: NO.

Should that not be OK?

Click to expand...

Then one does not respect the other, unless they do agree...

Dave-W said:

So we just jump to a conclusion that someone is trolling.
I have come across enough people that are frustrated out of their minds that I do not dismiss it so easily.

Click to expand...

archer75 said:

What about a woman who gets married saying she intends to have a sexual relationship and then admits she was lying?

Click to expand...

Then the man should have prayed for discernment before getting married to her. lack of knowledge is what makes people perish.

Dave-W said:

Not necessarily respect. Trauma often does not yield to such things.

Click to expand...

Religion often deals in an ideal world that doesn't really exist. It would be nice if love was all we needed, as the Beatles sang years ago, but in the real world there are real people with real hurts and love can only take us so far.

Dave-W said:

OK - does that include a non-consummated marriage of almost a year and a half? (from the OP of the linked thread) or if a wife suffered trauma as a child and it has little to do with the husband?


Scripturally, the woman is taken to have the higher drive.
Places that track such things say the number of men and women complaining of a lack of sex from their spouse is about equal.

Click to expand...

Can you show me where exactly in scripture it says that?

Dave-W said:

Because of this verse (and a few others) Jewish understanding since at least the first century bc is "Sex is a woman's RIGHT and a husband's responsibility."

Click to expand...

Seems like Paul would have known that. It can look to some like it's the reverse in the passage in the OP.

Duke Nelson said:

Then the man should have prayed for discernment before getting married to her. lack of knowledge is what makes people perish.

Click to expand...

So there is no possibility of anything goimg wrong, ever, in a marriage before which the man prayed for discernment?

Dave-W said:

"Discernment" is NOT a panacea. God only reveals what He wants us to see at a given moment.

Click to expand...

So you believe God didn't want to reveal that to the husband who married her? is what you're saying.

By the way discernment simply means 'the ability to judge well'.

Dave-W said:

He did.

But he was not writing to an exclusively Jewish audience. The Greeks had the opposite view (similar to our own) and he wrote to address BOTH audiences.

But I am concerned that by addressing the Greek side of things, he played into the on-going patriarchy.

Click to expand...

OK you're completely going off topic from your initial question.

Dave-W said:

I know historically what it meant. Hillel and Shammai (first century BC) had that discussion and Shammai said 2 weeks max and Hillel (grandfather of Paul's mentor Gamaliel) said one week max.

But that still does not stop this passage from being used in a patriarchal manner to force a wife to have sex.

What brought this up for me was this thread:

Another sexless unconsummated marriage

with all of the people berating the wife (who is not here to defend herself) and suggestions that the OP divorce her for not living up to her marriage vows.

Click to expand...

Dave-W said:

1 Corinthians 7:3
The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.​

Isn't this just a biblical excuse for a woman to be abused sexually by her husband?

Click to expand...

Honestly, I think scripture can be abused by corrupt minds. Many pieces of scripture can be taken in an isolated fashion and turn it into something that is not true or good. That doesn’t mean that St Paul was promoting that dangerous interpretation.

Dave-W said:

OR - as in my case, she tries to normally sexual, but all of a sudden on the honeymoon she is blown over by tons of PTSD flashbacks from childhood abuse.

Click to expand...

This happened to my friend of 25 years. She was normal (hormonal) when we were teens and early twenties, but after having a child she became completely non-sexual. Different treatments have been tried but nothing works. They haven't been intimate in over 15 years. It's a medical development that can occur on either side, and partners in the marriage are supposed to accept that as something to work on with the spouse, not leave them for. It's not always their decision. I won't go into graphic details, but there's a lot to it on why she can't when she's tried. It's hard on both of them.