Souls in the unborn.

Francis Drake

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Now, if there is a scripture plainly saying Eve's spirit is only a copy of Adam's, though, I'd be genuinely delighted to see it,
I never said Eve's spirit is a copy of Adam's.
When Eve was made, Adam gave up part of his body, his rib.
Likewise when Eve's spirit was made, Adam lost part of his spirit to her.
Adam and Eve's spirits are complementary to each other, not copies.
Likewise children are not copies of their parents, they have half of each, body soul and spirit.
 
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If as some keep claiming, God inserts a brand new spirit/soul from his heavenly store into each new foetus, then the only aspect we can possibly inherit from Adam will be the physical human body.

This human body is of course merely the tent which contains our soul/spirit, and when we die that human body is left behind and rots in the ground. This being true whether we are righteous or wicked.
In contrast to the body, our spirit/soul does not die, but will appear before the heavenly judgement seat of God, and be either accepted or rejected.

ie. It is our spirit/soul personality that is judged responsible for sin and iniquity, not our physical body.

And therein lies a serious scriptural problem.

Psalm51v5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
If as some claim, God puts a brand new spirit/soul in a baby, how can it possibly contain sin and iniquity?

1Cor15v21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

How can death be inherited from Adam if our spirit/soul is brand new from God?
 
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Halbhh

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If as some keep claiming, God inserts a brand new spirit/soul from his heavenly store into each new foetus, then the only aspect we can possibly inherit from Adam will be the physical human body.

This human body is of course merely the tent which contains our soul/spirit, and when we die that human body is left behind and rots in the ground. This being true whether we are righteous or wicked.
In contrast to the body, our spirit/soul does not die, but will appear before the heavenly judgement seat of God, and be either accepted or rejected.

ie. It is our spirit/soul personality that is judged responsible for sin and iniquity, not our physical body.

And therein lies a serious scriptural problem.

Psalm51v5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
If as some claim, God puts a brand new spirit/soul in a baby, how can it possibly contain sin and iniquity?

ah!.... Before I answer, please any others reading notice there is more than only one or 2 pieces to this answer. First, in Psalm 51 David is repenting. For adultery and murder -- not just some medium sized sins, but some very serious 10 commandment level big sins.

It's really serious stuff, and this Psalm is a truly humble and abject repenting. So is it hyperbole? Well, it is normal in scripture for hyperbole to show up here and there, but...

But we can't know whether it's hyperbole by just supposing. We need to truly listen to the whole psalm altogether, with the humble listening attitude that does not presume we already know all that will be given to us as we listen. So, this by itself -- simply to listen fully to Psalm 51 is already a major thing to do, so if we do it now, it will be by itself a major project, even perhaps day's worth of scripture.

The key is we aren't listening in order to use. We don't aim to use this psalm for some other goal. Instead in listening the goal is to be impacted/changed/improved. We are the ones learning, if we listen.

We cannot control it. So, at this point the agenda (and even the discussion) goes out the window, and a new goal happens -- to be subservient to God, and hear.

Later, we might return to the question being discussed.

Psalm 51:1 Have mercy on me, O God, according to Your loving devotion; according to Your great compassion, blot out my transgressions.

Perhaps the ESV is better:
Psalm 51 ESV

(wow, I'd not read the ESV I think. just wow!....)
 
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Francis Drake

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ah!.... Before I answer, please any others reading notice there is more than only one or 2 pieces to this answer. First, in Psalm 51 David is repenting. For adultery and murder -- not just some medium sized sins, but some very serious 10 commandment level big sins.

It's really serious stuff, and this Psalm is a truly humble and abject repenting. So is it hyperbole? Well, it is normal in scripture for hyperbole to show up here and there, but...

But we can't know whether it's hyperbole by just supposing. We need to truly listen to the whole psalm altogether, with the humble listening attitude that does not presume we already know all that will be given to us as we listen. So, this by itself -- simply to listen fully to Psalm 51 is already a major thing to do, so if we do it now, it will be by itself a major project, even perhaps day's worth of scripture.

The key is we aren't listening in order to use. We don't aim to use this psalm for some other goal. Instead in listening the goal is to be impacted/changed/improved. We are the ones learning, if we listen.

We cannot control it. So, at this point the agenda (and even the discussion) goes out the window, and a new goal happens -- to be subservient to God, and hear.

Later, we might return to the question being discussed.

Psalm 51:1 Have mercy on me, O God, according to Your loving devotion; according to Your great compassion, blot out my transgressions.

Perhaps the ESV is better:
Psalm 51 ESV

(wow, I'd not read the ESV I think. just wow!....)
This is just a load of hot air trying to cloud the plain text of what David said.
It matters not what the exact nature of David's sins, the fact remains David states he was conceived and born in sin and iniquity.

But rest assured, David is not just speaking hyperbole because of the enormity of his sin with Bathsheba. Here's what he says elsewhere.-
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

Pauls words in Corinthians confirms it.

1Cor15v21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Jesus confirms it to Nicodemus.
Jn3v3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.”
Why would anyone need to be reborn from above if he was given a brand new spirit from above at birth?
Paul confirms it to the Romans.
Romans5v12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

If the above scriptures are true, that all subsequent mankind fell from grace when Adam sinned, then the teaching that God inserts a new spirit/soul into babies is a doctrine of demons!

The roots of much of the nonsense in this thread come from a heresy called Pelagianism.-
"In AD 418, the Council at Carthage rejected the views of a man named Pelagius. Pelagius believed that each soul was directly created by God and thus man was born without a sinful nature. If true, it would follow that a person could be saved on personal merit, apart from the Savior’s atoning sacrifice. The Council condemned Pelagianism as heresy because of passages, such as Romans 5:12–21, which emphatically state that because of Adam’s sin, all of his descendants have been made sinners."
 
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Halbhh

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I hope one day you'll truly listen to psalm 51.

When David refers to the wicked (as you pointed to in Psalm 58), he does not mean everyone -- though for everyone: all sin and fall short -- but instead of just everyone, by "wicked" David instead refers to those that insist on remaining wicked.

Or just read Psalm 58.

(or read though the Psalms. I'm currently on the wonderful 139, having been reading through them over the last 3 months).
 
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Francis Drake

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I hope one day you'll truly listen to psalm 51.
Psalm 51 is just one among many scriptures that stand against you.
But as I said previously, I read it very recently, and I read with a listening heart.
And you are still wrong in your attempts to gut the meaning out of it, because that meaning is repeatedly demonstrated throughout the NT. by Jesus and the apostles..
When David refers to the wicked (as you pointed to in Psalm 58), he does not mean everyone -- though for everyone: all sin and fall short -- but instead of just everyone, by "wicked" David instead refers to those that insist on remaining wicked.
Wickedness and rebellion against God is a freewill choice, even from the womb, but that doesn't help prove your point.
Ps58v3The wicked are estranged from the womb; the liars go astray from birth.
Or just read Psalm 58.
(or read though the Psalms. I'm currently on the wonderful 139, having been reading through them over the last 3 months).
As I told you already, my wife and I are reading Psalms every day.

Even if I limited my scriptures to the NT alone, there are countless verses to prove man inherits Adam's sin nature.
If as you propose, God placed brand new spirits/soils in each child at conception or birth, then that would constitute a brand new start, untainted by the fall.

New born children would then enter the world in the same perfect state that Adam was before the fall.
 
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Halbhh

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Psalm 51 is just one among many scriptures that stand against you.
That's such a fundamentally wrong thing to think.

Instead, Pslam 51 is an aid to anyone that is humble enough to admit they are a sinner that relies on Christ for salvation.

Also, it's a huge error to try to use a verse to support a doctrine, instead of humbly listening to the full scripture, the full passage, the full book, as the real goal. When a person aims to just use individual verses to support their idea, they end up with an ideology. And an ideology isn't the scripture, and is therefore not what aids or helps us.

It's about being humble ultimately.

“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”

Instead of thinking of the Bible as your raw lumber to construct what you want from it, you need to change and really listen, without imposing your own goal and your own objective you bring to the reading.
 
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Francis Drake

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That's such a fundamentally wrong thing to think.

Instead, Pslam 51 is an aid to anyone that is humble enough to admit they are a sinner that relies on Christ for salvation.
Exactly.
But admission of sin includes not just sinful activity, but the inherited sinful state from Adam which disproves everything you keep presenting.
Also, it's a huge error to try to use a verse to support a doctrine, instead of humbly listening to the full scripture, the full passage, the full book, as the real goal.
That is why I presented loads of other scriptures which you studiously ignored.
When a person aims to just use individual verses to support their idea, they end up with an ideology. And an ideology isn't the scripture, and is therefore not what aids or helps us.
That's completely disingenuous. I have never used just one verse but loads. In contrast you have focused almost exclusively on presenting that the same verse.
It's about being humble ultimately.

“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”
Then I suggest you take note of it.
Instead of thinking of the Bible as your raw lumber to construct what you want from it, you need to change and really listen, without imposing your own goal and your own objective you bring to the reading.
If I recall, it was you who presented Pelagianism as some sort of spiritual wisdom.
 
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Halbhh

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inherited sinful state from Adam

If I was to try to describe our fallen condition, as human kind, I'd use the word 'inherited' possibly as a metaphor, but it would not be to me clear it's more than a metaphor.

Do you see the individual's spirit and soul as the same thing, or 2 things related, or what?

Exactly.
But admission of sin includes not just sinful activity, but the inherited sinful state from Adam which disproves everything you keep presenting.

That is why I presented loads of other scriptures which you studiously ignored.

That's completely disingenuous. I have never used just one verse but loads. In contrast you have focused almost exclusively on presenting that the same verse.

Then I suggest you take note of it.

If I recall, it was you who presented Pelagianism as some sort of spiritual wisdom.

What is it you think I presented precisely?

About "studiously ignored" -- far from it, when you tried to explain the crucial verse Jer 1:5 as I repeatedly asked about, you presented a speculative theory I've only heard in recent years, which, as before I think contradicts scripture.

So...not really ignoring. You left the main objection there, or moved on away from it, from my point of view.

If a person simply uses as a premise the idea that God has chosen to be 'present in all time, past/present/future' or a similar notion, then as I already said, your reasoning from that and other pieces together is "logically consistent" as I said above.

heh heh. If I only accepted that particular speculative idea about God and time, then we could just wrap up this topic in large part agreement it might be. Instead, as I hoped I was clear enough on before, it seems all a speculative theory, because of the speculative premise about God and time being integral.

There are a variety of ways God can accomplish what He has chosen to accomplish we can imagine, so therefore that particular theory is only one of several possibilities that would fit.

But it's one I think contradicts scripture, and if you wish to consider that I'll be happy to lay out why.

Hopefully you won't have to guess too much about what I think. Please just ask though when trying to infer.

--------
Trying to understand your view, are you in effect saying you think the individual spirit grows like a plant from a seed, physically inherited? I'm not too sure that's what you meant, but just trying to find out more clearly.
 
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If I was to try to describe our fallen condition, as human kind, I'd use the word 'inherited' possibly as a metaphor, but it would not be to me clear it's more than a metaphor.
I used "inherited" because scripture constantly states we bear the sin of Adam. It is not a metaphor.
Do you see the individual's spirit and soul as the same thing, or 2 things related, or what?
No I don't. We are body soul and spirit, three different things. Scripture shows that soul and spirit continue after death whilst the body rots.
The OP refers to souls, but your earlier posts referred to spirits. I didn't want to enter a discussion as to the difference, so I referred to them as soul/spirit. In my view, although different, they are completely tied together.
I didn't want to derail the thread with a new discussion, although I would welcome it elsewhere.
What is it you think I presented precisely?
You repeatedly stated the view that a brand new spirit is added to every child before birth.
About "studiously ignored" -- far from it, when you tried to explain the crucial verse Jer 1:5 as I repeatedly asked about, you presented a speculative theory I've only heard in recent years, which, as before I think contradicts scripture.
I was referring to the many NT verses that speak of Adam's fallen sin nature being passed down to all mankind.
So...not really ignoring. You left the main objection there, or moved on away from it, from my point of view.
I don't think I have deviated at all from my main consistent point that we all carry the DNA nature of Adam, not just bodily, but soul and spirit.
If God inserts a new spirit/soul at conception, that would completely break that inheritance, and deny scripture. It would also open the possibility of someone living a perfect life and not needing redemption.
If a person simply uses as a premise the idea that God has chosen to be 'present in all time, past/present/future' or a similar notion, then as I already said, your reasoning from that and other pieces together is "logically consistent" as I said above.
You lost me there, above my pay grade.
heh heh. If I only accepted that particular speculative idea about God and time, then we could just wrap up this topic in large part agreement it might be. Instead, as I hoped I was clear enough on before, it seems all a speculative theory, because of the speculative premise about God and time being integral.
I am not going to waste time and effort as to how God dwells outside of time, as its a good honest mainstream theology.
But if God is limited by the constraints of time, then he cannot see the future as a present reality and is no better than his own creations.
There are a variety of ways God can accomplish what He has chosen to accomplish we can imagine, so therefore that particular theory is only one of several possibilities that would fit.

But it's one I think contradicts scripture, and if you wish to consider that I'll be happy to lay out why.
Please do.
Hopefully you won't have to guess too much about what I think. Please just ask though when trying to infer.

--------
Trying to understand your view, are you in effect saying you think the individual spirit grows like a plant from a seed, physically inherited? I'm not too sure that's what you meant, but just trying to find out more clearly.
I never thought about it in that detail, but given that our physical body has to grow from a simple cell, maybe that's also correct for the human soul and human spirit.

Going back to Jeremiah1, John the Baptist etc. I believe that the human spirit has to be sufficiently mature whilst still in the womb to respond to the spirit of God.
But of course, responding to the spirit of God has nothing to do with theology.
 
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Halbhh

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I used "inherited" because scripture constantly states we bear the sin of Adam. It is not a metaphor.

No I don't. We are body soul and spirit, three different things. Scripture shows that soul and spirit continue after death whilst the body rots.
The OP refers to souls, but your earlier posts referred to spirits. I didn't want to enter a discussion as to the difference, so I referred to them as soul/spirit. In my view, although different, they are completely tied together.
I didn't want to derail the thread with a new discussion, although I would welcome it elsewhere.

You repeatedly stated the view that a brand new spirit is added to every child before birth.

I was referring to the many NT verses that speak of Adam's fallen sin nature being passed down to all mankind.

I don't think I have deviated at all from my main consistent point that we all carry the DNA nature of Adam, not just bodily, but soul and spirit.
If God inserts a new spirit/soul at conception, that would completely break that inheritance, and deny scripture. It would also open the possibility of someone living a perfect life and not needing redemption.

You lost me there, above my pay grade.

I am not going to waste time and effort as to how God dwells outside of time, as its a good honest mainstream theology.
But if God is limited by the constraints of time, then he cannot see the future as a present reality and is no better than his own creations.

Please do.

I never thought about it in that detail, but given that our physical body has to grow from a simple cell, maybe that's also correct for the human soul and human spirit.

Going back to Jeremiah1, John the Baptist etc. I believe that the human spirit has to be sufficiently mature whilst still in the womb to respond to the spirit of God.
But of course, responding to the spirit of God has nothing to do with theology.

How are you doing today? Did you pray the prayer we are given in Matthew 6 yet today? I ask because it's one of the most helpful things, and makes such a dramatic difference for me, over and over.

I'm hoping to discuss more soon, but want to be sure to be on the right foot.

No hurry, I tend to slow down when the topics are deep, because there's no reason to rush.
 
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Francis Drake

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How are you doing today? Did you pray the prayer we are given in Matthew 6 yet today? I ask because it's one of the most helpful things, and makes such a dramatic difference for me, over and over.
I occasionally include parts of the Lord's prayer, but being called to intercession, I always seek wisdom from the Holy Spirit as I pray.
My wife and I are retired, so we have been walking every morning for a couple of hours whilst we pray for the nation (inc USA as led).
The UK is at a crisis point right now with the date for leaving the EU being 29th March, and the government is determined to betray the people.
I'm hoping to discuss more soon, but want to be sure to be on the right foot.

No hurry, I tend to slow down when the topics are deep, because there's no reason to rush.
I have enjoyed our chats. I apologies if my replies seem a little abrupt, I can be a little heavy handed.
 
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Halbhh

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We are already in agreement in large part I think. Both of us are thinking the soul/spirit are present in babies in the womb.

What we are trying to discuss is apparently an old and deep topic, as I was reading some about yesterday. Gotta go at the moment.
 
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Halbhh

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I used "inherited" because scripture constantly states we bear the sin of Adam. It is not a metaphor.

No I don't. We are body soul and spirit, three different things. Scripture shows that soul and spirit continue after death whilst the body rots.
The OP refers to souls, but your earlier posts referred to spirits. I didn't want to enter a discussion as to the difference, so I referred to them as soul/spirit. In my view, although different, they are completely tied together.
I didn't want to derail the thread with a new discussion, although I would welcome it elsewhere.

You repeatedly stated the view that a brand new spirit is added to every child before birth.

I was referring to the many NT verses that speak of Adam's fallen sin nature being passed down to all mankind.

I don't think I have deviated at all from my main consistent point that we all carry the DNA nature of Adam, not just bodily, but soul and spirit.
If God inserts a new spirit/soul at conception, that would completely break that inheritance, and deny scripture. It would also open the possibility of someone living a perfect life and not needing redemption.

You lost me there, above my pay grade.

I am not going to waste time and effort as to how God dwells outside of time, as its a good honest mainstream theology.
But if God is limited by the constraints of time, then he cannot see the future as a present reality and is no better than his own creations.

Please do.

I never thought about it in that detail, but given that our physical body has to grow from a simple cell, maybe that's also correct for the human soul and human spirit.

Going back to Jeremiah1, John the Baptist etc. I believe that the human spirit has to be sufficiently mature whilst still in the womb to respond to the spirit of God.
But of course, responding to the spirit of God has nothing to do with theology.

Trying to focus in on one key piece, I think it was quite a few years ago I was wondering just what was the difference between the individual's soul and spirit (because we know the verse Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart. -- so we know the soul and spirit aren't the same indentical thing, though of course we sense they are intimately connected), and so I read on it, and that was quite a long time ago, so I can't recall the source, but what I came away with was the summary in my mind that the soul is the outcome of the spirit indwelling in the physical body -- a kind of over-time result of the individual spirt and the body combined or co-existing together. This all fits scripture so far as I know (I've read fully through the Bible, and many times fully through most of the New Testament books, typically 3-10 times each; currently I've embarked to read through the OT again, and am near the end of Psalms; certain OT books like Ecclesiastes I've read more than twice, because they are so interesting). There might be other ways of understanding of how soul and spirit relate together, but this one makes good sense with scripture.

If your view is significantly different from that, it would cause us to have trouble discussing other parts of our questions, as this is more fundamental, initial. Do you have a different view, and what is it, and where could I read up on it in precise detail?
 
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Halbhh

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I got curious to read more viewpoints.

Here are some I'm just starting to read over (so some may be good, some less so) --

What is the difference between the soul and spirit of man?
What is the difference between soul and spirit? Hebrews 4:12 commentary.
https://rcspirituality.org/ask_a_pr...-by-spirit-and-soul-from-the-interior-castle/

(I'm intentionally looking at more than just one church's view or one individual's viewpoint, because I want to compare various views to scripture, and often it would happen that various views have pieces of the answer)

(already I'm noticing some useful points in the GotQuestions answer (often GotQuestions can be hit or miss, because for one thing it's a wide range of writers, indivdiuals, answering))
 
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Trying to focus in on one key piece, I think it was quite a few years ago I was wondering just what was the difference between the individual's soul and spirit (because we know the verse Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
This is obviously one of the key verses on the subject, showing clearly that soul and spirit are different.
-- so we know the soul and spirit aren't the same indentical thing, though of course we sense they are intimately connected), and so I read on it, and that was quite a long time ago, so I can't recall the source, but what I came away with was the summary in my mind that the soul is the outcome of the spirit indwelling in the physical body -- a kind of over-time result of the individual spirt and the body combined or co-existing together.
Not sure I agree with this, as scripture shows that even God has a soul!
Matt12v18.(quoting Isaiah42v1)"Behold My servant, whom I have chosen, My beloved, in whom My soul has found delight. I will put My Spirit upon Him, and He will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.
God is saying that His soul delights in Jesus!
This all fits scripture so far as I know (I've read fully through the Bible, and many times fully through most of the New Testament books, typically 3-10 times each; currently I've embarked to read through the OT again, and am near the end of Psalms; certain OT books like Ecclesiastes I've read more than twice, because they are so interesting). There might be other ways of understanding of how soul and spirit relate together, but this one makes good sense with scripture.
I am sure we are both well read in the scriptures.
If your view is significantly different from that, it would cause us to have trouble discussing other parts of our questions, as this is more fundamental, initial. Do you have a different view, and what is it, and where could I read up on it in precise detail?
Most Christians settle for the soul as being the seat of the mind, will and emotions. It sounds right and might well be right.
Unfortunately, vast amounts of so called theology are rooted in secular philosophy and psychology, so even the above may need revisiting.
Notwithstanding that, I still believe that both soul and spirit come via our parents, going all the way back to Adam.
 
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I'm still surprised, and it's just new to me in spite of hearing a lot of sermons in so many churches and discussions with so many here about often esoteric things (not mostly esoteric, but at least many discussions including esoteric things) who are from so many churches, at the idea of literally physically inheriting a soul and spirit from parents. (!?) Or even inheriting in some partly physical way -- still the same unexpected idea that seems wrong.
Physical inherited trait, merely genetic??

That does to me contradict for instance the Ecclesiastes verse. Here it is again in context:

1 Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near of which you will say, “I have no pleasure in them”; 2 before the sun and the light and the moon and the stars are darkened and the clouds return after the rain, 3 in the day when the keepers of the house tremble, and the strong men are bent, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those who look through the windows are dimmed, 4 and the doors on the street are shut—when the sound of the grinding is low, and one rises up at the sound of a bird, and all the daughters of song are brought low— 5 they are afraid also of what is high, and terrors are in the way; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags itself along, and desire fails, because man is going to his eternal home, and the mourners go about the streets— 6 before the silver cord is snapped, or the golden bowl is broken, or the pitcher is shattered at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern, 7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. 8 Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher; all is vanity.
Ecclesiastes 12 ESV

It says of course that God gives us our spirit, and that spirit returns to Him when the dust body returns to the dust where it came from and is made of -- "and the dust returns to the earth as it was".

The body is only dust -- just part of Earth. Only mud and water in a way, composed of a brilliant organization of elements which are only physical matter -- "dust".

You perhaps recall, but this is only echoing the exact same reality told to us in Genesis, by the Lord, in plain wording, again. We are from dust, and to dust these bodies will return (but not our spirits!).

As best I can paraphrase: This physical body is from dust, God gives spirit to make us more than only "dust" alone, and because of this spirit given to the body, we have a soul then, and when the body dies the indwelling spirit/soul then returns to Him.

This is obviously one of the key verses on the subject, showing clearly that soul and spirit are different.

Not sure I agree with this, as scripture shows that even God has a soul!
Matt12v18.(quoting Isaiah42v1)"Behold My servant, whom I have chosen, My beloved, in whom My soul has found delight. I will put My Spirit upon Him, and He will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.
God is saying that His soul delights in Jesus!

I am sure we are both well read in the scriptures.

Most Christians settle for the soul as being the seat of the mind, will and emotions. It sounds right and might well be right.
Unfortunately, vast amounts of so called theology are rooted in secular philosophy and psychology, so even the above may need revisiting.
Notwithstanding that, I still believe that both soul and spirit come via our parents, going all the way back to Adam.
 
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Halbhh

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Scripture doesn't tell us when we get souls. I wish it did. Since we do not know, best to err on the side of caution and not abort unless it is medically necessary to save the mother's life.

Yes, I was concerned once or twice if I discuss when the individual spirit God gives us is put into the physical body, that someone could mistake that as somehow endorsing abortion (!!??). Of course, as you can surmise with a hint or something, if I think the individual spirit is put in a physical body, then....of course I think the rule "do not kill" has not merely a pleasant peaceful aspect, but is really from God, because it truly matters in a way that is profound -- God never give us trivial rules that do not matter.

Please help me though -- did it even make you wonder for a minute if I endorse abortion if I am discussing when the spirit enters the body? I don't want to accidentally seem to endorse what I'm opposed to, and don't even want a small risk of that, of course.

What is under discussion (indirectly at the moment) is what about the 1/2 of all conceptions that are naturally aborted by the mother's body, by nature, naturally -- thus by God's design?

It may seem esoteric, but it matters because of fraught situations like this:
What if a woman is raped, and does not know whether she is pregnant (this cannot be determined for a few weeks I think), and then she takes a morning after pill to prevent the rapist from possibly impregnating her?

Is "conception" itself merely our very modern, new, scientific understanding since the 1970s only? -- where we have high power microscopes videos that have in recent decades caused us to newly learn that the sperm actually penetrates the egg well before the fertilized egg gets implanted?

Or is instead "conception" something that we don't determine, but instead God determines?

And then is the true conception actually after a viable fertilized egg (only some fertilized eggs are actually physically viable, by nature, God's design) is successfully implanted and begins to draw nourishment? Or when?

It's a new, modern way to define 'conception' that we came up with in recent decades, only, I think, to understand it's a sperm-fertilized egg before the woman is pregnant (before implantation in the uterous).

It's seems it is speculation to say when the spirit is put in the dust body, since we are not told in scripture.
 
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Francis Drake

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I appreciate the opportunity to explore this subject with you. I disagree with you on several points, but admit to having a far from complete understanding!

I'm still surprised, and it's just new to me in spite of hearing a lot of sermons in so many churches and discussions with so many here about often esoteric things (not mostly esoteric, but at least many discussions including esoteric things) who are from so many churches, at the idea of literally physically inheriting a soul and spirit from parents. (!?)
I didn't say physical, I believe our spiritual body parallels our physical body.
Or even inheriting in some partly physical way -- still the same unexpected idea that seems wrong.
Physical inherited trait, merely genetic??
But human reproduction doesn't just produce physical likeness to your ancestry does it?
My father's family were all musical. My brother very strongly inherited that gift, whereas me and my sister have little noticeable music talent. I did however get my father's practical talents in engineering etc.
I also inherited ginger hair until it turned white in my early 50s.
Basically, nobody argues that both physical and non physical characteristics are inherited from our parents.

Science has even discovered the methodology of DNA division and reassembly that creates the offspring with part of each parent, but it only proved what everybody already knew.

However Christians watch the exact same thing happening with mental characteristics and musical gifts inherited from our parents, and then proceed to deny its reality!
That does to me contradict for instance the Ecclesiastes verse. Here it is again in context:
……….………….. 6 before the silver cord is snapped, or the golden bowl is broken, or the pitcher is shattered at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern, 7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12 ESV
I'm not challenging that verse one bit. Clearly the human flesh rots in the ground as I keep pointing out. But neither your nor my flesh came directly from the ground did we. Adam was made from the mud, but we came from our mother's wombs, which I can assure you were not filled with mud!

Obviously, we ultimately came from the mud as offspring of Adam, but in no way was that directly so.
If that fact is true regarding our physical flesh, then we must allow the same logic for the human spirit and human soul! ie. The soul/spirit entered us from God but routed via Adam.
Thus as Ecclesiastes states, the dust/human body returns to the earth, and our spirit returns to God.
It says of course that God gives us our spirit, and that spirit returns to Him when the dust body returns to the dust where it came from and is made of -- "and the dust returns to the earth as it was".

The body is only dust -- just part of Earth. Only mud and water in a way, composed of a brilliant organization of elements which are only physical matter -- "dust".

You perhaps recall, but this is only echoing the exact same reality told to us in Genesis, by the Lord, in plain wording, again. We are from dust, and to dust these bodies will return (but not our spirits!).

As best I can paraphrase: This physical body is from dust, God gives spirit to make us more than only "dust" alone, and because of this spirit given to the body, we have a soul then, and when the body dies the indwelling spirit/soul then returns to Him.
 
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