Souls in the unborn.

Halbhh · Mar 1, 2019

redleghunter said:
Why would we have to assume it deals with a physical likeness? Jesus said God is Spirit. And the Divine Logos God the Son did not become flesh at creation but when conceived in Mary.

That's useful.

Of course, all the rest of us are indeed conceived in a flesh way though...so it's not instantly clear the 2 situations are the same in regard to when an individual spirit is given into a body.

SPF · Mar 1, 2019

Halbhh said:
But the literal image of God -- our physical image-likeness to Him, however unique in each person -- that's not at conception, but much later in development. I'm not drawing any guesses from that, but since you mentioned it, we do know that image-likeness is pretty far along in pregnancy.

This of course doesn't work when we play it out. Human development takes 25 years, and at each stage of development we look exactly as we are supposed to look.

I've yet to see any Biblically based argument that is worth anything that should cause us to think that at any point in time there is such a thing as a living human being that does not have a soul. Can anyone think of any Scripture to support that?

Halbhh · Mar 1, 2019

SPF said:
This of course doesn't work when we play it out. Human development takes 25 years, and at each stage of development we look exactly as we are supposed to look.

I've yet to see any Biblically based argument that is worth anything that should cause us to think that at any point in time there is such a thing as a living human being that does not have a soul. Can anyone think of any Scripture to support that?

I can't. Thus "mystery" to me -- unknown. (I'm assuming you got already I think the soul is present in the baby in the womb though)

Francis Drake · Mar 1, 2019

Natsumi Lam said:
Do you believe that a soul is imparted at conception?

There is no such thing as souls "being imparted".

We are each entirely a product of our two parents, in both the physical and at the spiritual level. And that goes all the way back to the original two parents, Adam and Eve.

When Adam was created, God breathed into him and he became a living soul.
When God took a part of Adam's body and created Eve, there is no record of God breathing into Eve so she could be a living soul. So where did her life come from?

It is surely common sense to presume that just as her body originated as a part of Adam's body, so her soul must have originated as a part of Adam's soul.
Her life came from Adam!

So moving forward to babies. We know that their physical bodies originate from the joint DNA of both parents, therefore it is reasonable to presume that the baby's human spirit and human soul originated from the soul and spirit of both parents.

We happily accept that talents such as music, art, or mechanics all originate in our parents, and they are obviously aspects of our soul, not our flesh.

Or do you believe it is at birth?

Nope. See above.
A brand new body, soul, and spirit, starts with the union of the egg and the sperm.

Do you believe the Holy Spirit can be imparted in the womb?

Absolutely yes. John the Baptist is just one example.

Halbhh · Mar 1, 2019

Francis Drake said:
When Adam was created, God breathed into him and he became a living soul.
When God took a part of Adam's body and created Eve, there is no record of God breathing into Eve so she could be a living soul. So where did her life come from?

As we read through the Bible we realize it intentionally doesn't tell us everything that happened/happens, but instead aims at key meanings we are to gain. When creating Eve, God could easily have created her in any number of ways (He is God after all), such as from "dirt of the ground"... but, the text actually says "rib". It could have been something else, like "a piece of flesh" or whatever....

Imagine what it would mean if instead the text read: "And God took a piece of Adam's ear, and made a woman."

Of course, God choose a certain thing instead of just anything.

His "rib". Why?

If we really listen, something subtle and deep can be conveyed -- she is like a rib to Adam(!) (as often there is both literal but simultaneously a meaning that is deep). She is crucial to protecting his very heart and breath, no less!

The love is more than only skin deep. Much deeper a bond.

God is telling us something profound about the marriage bond. It's not just convenient, or a contract, but something very deep and powerful happens when the "two become one".

Francis Drake · Mar 1, 2019

Halbhh said:
As we read through the Bible we realize it intentionally doesn't tell us everything that happened, but instead aims at key meanings we are to gain. In the instance of Eve, though God could easily have created her in any number of ways (He is God after all), such as from "dirt of the ground" etc....the text actually says "rib". It could have been something else, like "a piece of flesh" or whatever.... But instead of all those other things it could have been the text says "rib". Why? If we really listen, something subtle and deep can be conveyed -- she is like a rib to Adam(!) (as often there is both literal but simultaneously a meaning that is deep). She is crucial to protecting his very heart and breath, no less!

The love is more than only skin deep. Much deeper a bond.

Thanks, I am aware of all this, but deliberately left it out as it has nothing to do with what I posted.

RaymondG · Mar 1, 2019

Halbhh said:
As we read through the Bible we realize it intentionally doesn't tell us everything that happened/happens, but instead aims at key meanings we are to gain. When creating Eve, God could easily have created her in any number of ways (He is God after all), such as from "dirt of the ground"... but, the text actually says "rib". It could have been something else, like "a piece of flesh" or whatever....

Imagine what it would mean if instead the text read: "And God took a piece of Adam's ear, and made a woman."

Of course, God choose a certain thing instead of just anything.

His "rib". Why?

If we really listen, something subtle and deep can be conveyed -- she is like a rib to Adam(!) (as often there is both literal but simultaneously a meaning that is deep). She is crucial to protecting his very heart and breath, no less!

The love is more than only skin deep. Much deeper a bond.

It is also possible that Adam and Eve still one being (genesis 5:2), and this passage conveys a perceived separation,....explaining that we must all again become one......leaving our mother and father...... which was also the pray of the Savior for all of us: I pray that they all be One even as I.

Halbhh · Mar 1, 2019

Francis Drake said:
When Adam was created, God breathed into him and he became a living soul.
When God took a part of Adam's body and created Eve, there is no record of God breathing into Eve so she could be a living soul. So where did her life come from?

Continuing, since you agree the Bible doesn't tell us all details...then we can expect we were not told every detail. I would think Eve needed the breath of God also. While such a detail isn't the ultimate message (that's instead what I pointed to already in the previous response just above), it's simply open to guessing really. We cannot conclude our guesses though are facts. Guessing is ok as long as we remember we guessed, and don't rely on it ultimately too much. If I faced a crucial decision, such as whether to take a morning after pill having been raped for example, and simply don't clearly know what to do -- trying to make decisions where much is unknown probably happens on Earth to people about a billion or more times a month -- then I'd pray on it.

Not David · Mar 1, 2019

Like I said, more suppositions based on your philosophy.

Halbhh · Mar 1, 2019

David Cabrera said:
Like I said, more suppositions based on your philosophy.

Yes. When we make the varied guesses as many have in the thread, it's very good to remember what is supposition. I remember which things are supposition, and which are the real words of the scriptures. So, again as in post #23.

But when I ask if anyone can help reduce the unknowns, it's sincere.

Can anyone?

(Again, as before, don't mistake me for being on some side of some old debate)

Not David · Mar 1, 2019

Halbhh said:
Yes. When we make the varied guesses as many have in the thread, it's very good to remember what is supposition. I remember which things are supposition, and which are the real words of the scriptures. So, again as in post #23.

But when I ask if anyone can help reduce the unknowns, it's sincere.I

Can anyone?

Your post is a supposition of what God does or not in a miscarriage.

Halbhh · Mar 1, 2019

This one? --"God would not put souls into fetuses that He can see are going to naturally die before birth, is my best guess."

A "guess" is definitely a supposition. Is that not clear enough you think?

Can you help with the unknown though?

Francis Drake · Mar 1, 2019

RaymondG said:
I believe that the soul/spirit enters with the breath. Therefore it remains unaffected and gets no free trips to future destinations as a result of a fetus dying in the womb.

If we look at John the Baptist......He was said to have the same spirit as a body that lived long before him....

This is a reference to the anointing of the Holy Spirit, not Elijah's human spirit which remained in Elijah when he was taken up.

RaymondG · Mar 1, 2019

Francis Drake said:
This is a reference to the anointing of the Holy Spirit, not Elijah's human spirit which remained in Elijah when he was taken up.

A human spirit?

Natsumi Lam · Mar 1, 2019

RaymondG said:
A human spirit?

I think he is referring to the bible verse that we are body, soul and spirit.

Selene03 · Mar 1, 2019

SPF said:
This of course doesn't work when we play it out. Human development takes 25 years, and at each stage of development we look exactly as we are supposed to look.

I've yet to see any Biblically based argument that is worth anything that should cause us to think that at any point in time there is such a thing as a living human being that does not have a soul. Can anyone think of any Scripture to support that?

We were given a soul at conception. There is scripture supporting that.

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

From the moment, we were conceived we inherited Adam's sin, which was passed down to all mankind.

Psalms 139:13-16 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

This is why we fight against abortion. Human life began at conception. So, we can even say, I was once a fetus....I was once an embryo.....and God knew me when I was a fetus or an embryo. In creating us from the womb, God had infused a soul into us at conception.

Halbhh · Mar 1, 2019

Selene03 said:
We were given a soul at conception. There is scripture supporting that.

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

From the moment, we were conceived we inherited Adam's sin, which was passed down to all mankind.

Psalms 139:13-16 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

This is why we fight against abortion. Human life began at conception. So, we can even say, I was once a fetus....I was once an embryo.....and God knew me when I was a fetus or an embryo. In creating us from the womb, God had infused a soul into us at conception.

Before conception God knows our individual spirit.

You quoted the verse saying so.

Our spirit isn't suddenly born at conception, but instead God places the spirit He already knows into us after the new developing body is ready, it appears is one possible way the mystery may be.

Selene03 · Mar 1, 2019

Halbhh said:
Before conception God knows our individual spirit.

You quoted the verse saying so.

Our spirit isn't suddenly born at conception, but instead God places the spirit He already knows into us after the new developing body is ready, it appears is one possible way the mystery may be.

Scripture did not say that God knew our spirit. It says God knew us.....a person.

Halbhh · Mar 1, 2019

And what is a person "before" they are formed in the womb?.... (From the wonderful famous Jer 1:5)

Ecclesiastes 12:7 before the dust returns to the ground from which it came, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Francis Drake · Mar 2, 2019

RaymondG said:
A human spirit?

If your body doesn't have a human spirit Raymond, then you are obviously dead.
So, I hope I am conversing to someone who is well and truly alive?

Souls in the unborn.

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