Souls in the unborn.

redleghunter said:

Ok, we are going to get into Christological issues with this answer. Is not Jesus Christ fully human and fully God? If this is also your view then Jesus would have a human soul as He has two Natures but is One Person.

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I am not that up to date with all the 'ologies' If you could speak on spiritual ideas or direct quotes from the bible we can continue.

RaymondG said:

I am not that up to date with all the 'ologies' If you could speak on spiritual ideas or direct quotes from the bible we can continue.

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Jesus truly God and truly man is speaking of the basics of Christianity.

So for the purposes of this thread, I am stating Jesus was not only 100% at His conception but 100% human as well. As such He had a human soul with regards to His truly human nature.

Two natures (1) human (2) Divine Logos=One Person of Christ Jesus.

Natsumi Lam said:

Do you believe that a soul is imparted at conception?

Or do you believe it is at birth?

Do you believe the Holy Spirit can be imparted in the womb?

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The question is about a mystery. Something we are not told clearly in scripture (that exact when in time, though we do seem to know it's before birth sometime it seems from some scriptures, such as when Mary visits Elizabeth, who is well along in pregnancy, and in her womb the baby to be named John (later) leaps in response).

So, all answers that give a guess about just when (any exact moment) are, well, guessing. (Unless the person somehow has scripture to back up a precise time.)

So, in the normal on CF way of guessing about mysteries --

Here's some thoughts about how to guess (which may or may not help).

"...more than half of successful fertilisations will end in miscarriage."
New Research Shows Most Human Pregnancies End in Miscarriage

God would not put souls into fetuses that He can see are going to naturally die before birth, is my best guess.

(if someone believes God would intentionally put a soul into a developing fetus He can see is going to die soon in the womb...I wonder how they see that, and what makes them think so?)

Another aspect to consider: the soul seems to be interwoven with consciousness.

So, if only 1/2 of conceptions result in viable babies that make it full term.
And the soul is associated to consciousness.

Then, it must be very likely that a soul would only be implanted into developing babies that are going to make it and when their developing nervous systems are sufficiently developed in order to allow a basic consciousness.

One possible indicator of basic consciousness is that sometime in the 2nd trimester they do begin to respond --
Fetal Sense of Hearing Development During Pregnancy | What To Expect

So....not before then, but quite possibly at that time, or...

Another interesting fact is that long time Jewish custom was not to name a baby boy until it reached 8 days living outside the womb (during the 'bris' ceremony). And a baby girl during first Torah reading -
The Laws of Jewish Names - Parshat Shemot

Halbhh said:

"...more than half of successful fertilisations will end in miscarriage."
New Research Shows Most Human Pregnancies End in Miscarriage

God would not put souls into fetuses that He can see are going to naturally die before birth, is my best guess.

(if someone believes God would intentionally put a soul into a developing fetus He can see is going to die soon in the womb...I wonder how they see that, and what makes them think so?)

Another aspect to consider: the soul seems to be interwoven with consciousness.

So, if only 1/2 of conceptions result in viable babies that make it full term.
And the soul is associated to consciousness.

Then, it must be very likely that a soul would only be implanted into developing babies that are going to make it and when their developing nervous systems are sufficiently developed in order to allow a basic consciousness.

One possible indicator of basic consciousness is that sometime in the 2nd trimester they do begin to respond --
Fetal Sense of Hearing Development During Pregnancy | What To Expect

So....not before then, but quite possibly at that time, or...

Another interesting fact is that long time Jewish custom was not to name a baby boy until it reached 8 days living outside the womb (during the 'bris' ceremony). And a baby girl during first Torah reading -
The Laws of Jewish Names - Parshat Shemot

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Everybody dies. Your assumptions would apply to anyone at any stage of human development.

redleghunter said:

Everybody dies. Your assumptions would apply to anyone at any stage of human development.

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We probably both know when the soul leaves the body, but when do you think the soul enters the body?

Halbhh said:

"...more than half of successful fertilisations will end in miscarriage."
New Research Shows Most Human Pregnancies End in Miscarriage

God would not put souls into fetuses that He can see are going to naturally die before birth, is my best guess.

(if someone believes God would intentionally put a soul into a developing fetus He can see is going to die soon in the womb...I wonder how they see that, and what makes them think so?)

Another aspect to consider: the soul seems to be interwoven with consciousness.

So, if only 1/2 of conceptions result in viable babies that make it full term.
And the soul is associated to consciousness.

Then, it must be very likely that a soul would only be implanted into developing babies that are going to make it and when their developing nervous systems are sufficiently developed in order to allow a basic consciousness.

One possible indicator of basic consciousness is that sometime in the 2nd trimester they do begin to respond --
Fetal Sense of Hearing Development During Pregnancy | What To Expect

So....not before then, but quite possibly at that time, or...

Another interesting fact is that long time Jewish custom was not to name a baby boy until it reached 8 days living outside the womb (during the 'bris' ceremony). And a baby girl during first Torah reading -
The Laws of Jewish Names - Parshat Shemot

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This type of reasoning is really nothing more than us pretending we are God and then saying how we would do things. This is dangerous reasoning, and as you can see from the post, isn't actually based on anything Biblical (he cited nothing).

Consider this, there are babies that are actually born that die soon thereafter. Based upon the logic provided here, I see no reason why we shouldn't extend it to all babies that die within 1 week of birth, or perhaps 1 month of birth. Surely if God would not put a soul into a baby that would die in the womb, He would also not put a soul in a baby that would die within 1 month of living outside the womb, right?

It's a slippery slope, and it's not based upon Scripture. It's best if we don't pretend to be God and make assertions about what He would or wouldn't do based upon our limited, finite reasoning.

What we do know is that all humans are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value. What we do know is that a new, unique individual human being comes into existence at fertilization and begins a 25 year long developmental period. Based upon that, unbiased logic would lend us towards believing that we have a soul at fertilization.

Afterall, there is absolutely 100% nothing to be found in Scripture that would indicate there is ever at any time a living human without a soul. And since humans come into existence at fertilization..... The conclusion is easy to arrive at.

Halbhh said:

We probably both know when the soul leaves the body, but when do you think the soul enters the body?

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I believe we must go with what we do know. Humans are made in the image and likeness of God, He made them male and female. That's the first fact we know of from Genesis.

Second fact we know is God is Spirit as Jesus told the woman at the well.

We can logically conclude that the material body is not the image and likeness which God bestowed on man at creation.

The other fact to draw some knowledge from is the fact there is no instance where a human life is without a soul other than death. Death is actually defined as the separation of the soul from the body.

Death, Death-stroke (see also Die)

Who's really playing God here?....

SPF said:

This type of reasoning is really nothing more than us pretending we are God and then saying how we would do things. This is dangerous reasoning, and as you can see from the post, isn't actually based on anything Biblical (he cited nothing).

Consider this, there are babies that are actually born that die soon thereafter. Based upon the logic provided here, I see no reason why we shouldn't extend it to all babies that die within 1 week of birth, or perhaps 1 month of birth. Surely if God would not put a soul into a baby that would die in the womb, He would also not put a soul in a baby that would die within 1 month of living outside the womb, right?

It's a slippery slope, and it's not based upon Scripture. It's best if we don't pretend to be God and make assertions about what He would or wouldn't do based upon our limited, finite reasoning.

What we do know is that all humans are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value. What we do know is that a new, unique individual human being comes into existence at fertilization and begins a 25 year long developmental period. Based upon that, unbiased logic would lend us towards believing that we have a soul at fertilization.

Afterall, there is absolutely 100% nothing to be found in Scripture that would indicate there is ever at any time a living human without a soul. And since humans come into existence at fertilization..... The conclusion is easy to arrive at.

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Halbhh said:

Who's really playing God here?....

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I don't know, why don't you put some content in your thoughts?

redleghunter said:

I believe we must go with what we do know. Humans are made in the image and likeness of God, He made them male and female. That's the first fact we know of from Genesis.

Second fact we know is God is Spirit as Jesus told the woman at the well.

We can logically conclude that the material body is not the image and likeness which God bestowed on man at creation.

The other fact to draw some knowledge from is the fact there is no instance where a human life is without a soul other than death. Death is actually defined as the separation of the soul from the body.

Death, Death-stroke (see also Die)

[ A-1,Noun,G2288, thanatos ]
death," is used in Scripture of:
(a) the separation of the soul (the spiritual part of man) from the body (the material part), the latter ceasing to function and turning to dust, e.g., John 11:13; Hebrews 2:15; Hebrews 5:7; Hebrews 7:23. In Hebrews 9:15, the AV, "by means of death" is inadequate; the RV, "a death having taken place" is in keeping with the subject. In Revelation 13:3, Revelation 13:12, the RV, "death-stroke" (AV, "deadly wound") is, lit., "the stroke of death:"


(b) the separation of man from God; Adam died on the day he disobeyed God, Genesis 2:17, and hence all mankind are born in the same spiritual condition, Romans 5:12, Romans 5:14, Romans 5:17, Romans 5:21, from which, however, those who believe in Christ are delivered, John 5:24; 1 John 3:14. "Death" is the opposite of life; it never denotes nonexistence. As spiritual life is "conscious existence in communion with God," so spiritual "death" is "conscious existence in separation from God."

"Death, in whichever of the above-mentioned senses it is used, is always, in Scripture, viewed as the penal consequence of sin, and since sinners alone are subject to death, Romans 5:12, it was as the Bearer of sin that the Lord Jesus submitted thereto on the Cross, 1 Peter 2:24. And while the physical death of the Lord Jesus was of the essence of His sacrifice, it was not the whole. The darkness symbolized, and His cry expressed, the fact that He was left alone in the Universe, He was 'forsaken;' cp. Matthew 27:45-Matthew 27:46." * [* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, p. 134.]

Death, Death-stroke (see also Die) - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words​

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Seems you and I agree and are thinking much the same things also. But I'd like to ask: If you know that a soul leaves a body at death, do you think a soul enters a body/physical flesh at some point in time?

If not (!?)....wow, that would be a really new point of view to me, if that's the view. It would instead be...what? That a soul grows like a plant maybe?

Of course we are all guessing to begin with, and I won't assume a guess means you are playing God (of course to assert you are playing God with any guess you make would be against John 7:24).

To me, guessing that God places souls into bodies, and when -- those are a mystery.

The question in post 1 is about a mystery.

Maybe even a Mystery with a capital M (the kind we cannot ever understand down here).

When someone asks about a mystery, then I assume all the answers are taken to be just the guesses of the people answering. Maybe though I'd better point that out! I'll go back and add that to my answer above.

SPF said:

I don't know, why don't you put some content in your thoughts?

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Sorry. I assumed that everyone would expect that any and every answer that speculates about when God puts a soul into a body is a guess.

Guessing isn't a wrong, unless it becomes too prejudicial. I edited to be sure it's hard to mistake my answer for being anything but another guess, as the rest of the answers. (I did originally say "guess" at one point in my answer, but perhaps it was too obscure)

Halbhh said:

If you know that a soul leaves a body at death, do you think a soul enters a body/physical flesh at some point in time?

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Our very beginning when we become human beings is at conception. We do know that scientifically. It would be at that point we must consider all human beings made in the image and likeness of God. If not and we are just some human being 'raw material' then we would be 'dead.' Because there is no other separation of soul and body other than death and that is not permanent.

Halbhh said:

To me, guessing that God places souls into bodies, and when -- those are a mystery.

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If one wants to invoke "mystery" then we have to assume protection of all human beings from the earliest of stages. We know this now scientifically is at conception.

redleghunter said:

Our very beginning when we become human beings is at conception. We do know that scientifically. It would be at that point we must consider all human beings made in the image and likeness of God. If not and we are just some human being 'raw material' then we would be 'dead.' Because there is no other separation of soul and body other than death and that is not permanent.

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But the literal image of God -- our physical image-likeness to Him, however unique in each person -- that's not at conception, but much later in development. I'm not drawing any guesses from that, but since you mentioned it, we do know that image-likeness is pretty far along in pregnancy.

Halbhh said:

But the literal image of God -- our physical image-likeness to Him, however unique in each person -- that's not at conception, but much later in development. I'm not drawing any guesses from that, but since you mentioned it, we do know that image-likeness is pretty far along in pregnancy.

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That's just a supposition, a dangerous one since it would apply to Jesus too

Halbhh said:

But the literal image of God -- our physical image-likeness to Him, however unique in each person -- that's not at conception, but much later in development. I'm not drawing any guesses from that, but since you mentioned it, we do know that image-likeness is pretty far along in pregnancy.

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Why would we have to assume it deals with a physical likeness? Jesus said God is Spirit. And the Divine Logos God the Son did not become flesh at creation but when conceived in Mary.

redleghunter said:

If one wants to invoke "mystery" then we have to assume protection of all human beings from the earliest of stages. We know this now scientifically is at conception.

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If it is not a mystery, then someone could lay out the full way you know? Or do you mean simply something like "ok, it is a mystery, but still..."? The person that says it is not an unknown (a mystery) would also get asked the question: what about the 1/2 of conceptions that result in natural death in the womb (and can't God see that ahead of time?)?

David Cabrera said:

That's just a supposition, a dangerous one since it would apply to Jesus too

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Well, I'm not making any supposition from it myself...

David Cabrera said:

That's just a supposition, a dangerous one since it would apply to Jesus too

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It might help to know I think this is all mysterious, and involves a mystery -- when the soul enters the fleshly body. See post #30 -- make that #23 -- please though if you want to offer something that could help clear up some of the unknowns.

Don't mistake me for being on side A or side B in some old debate though, since I definitely am not. If it helps, you should be able to see in post #30 (if you read it and it's short), I believe the soul is in the body during pregnancy, before birth. But when -- there's the mysterious part for me.

The image of God was created before Mankind....which can reproduce itself. Male and female created He them in His image....... After this he formed Mankind from the Dust of the Ground and later told them to reproduce.

Man reproduces the flesh....but God gives it Life and spirit....... I believe it is those same images of God created in the beginning....that uses the suitable houses we help produce for them today...