Child sacrifice in America dealt with by heaven

InterestedAtheist · Feb 20, 2019

SPF said:
I did show why, and so have others. You’re welcome to disagree with the explanation, but proper interpretations have been presented.

Perhaps you can remind me where you said that, or the number of the post in the thread?

SPF said:
It doesn’t, you’re only found wanting. This fact is also emphasized that with the entirety of Scripture before you, the only passage you can come up with to argue for abortion is this passage. You weren’t even able to provide a single commentary that agreed with your outlandish assessment. Nobody is taking it seriously, nobody. It’s that bad.

You're the one who says that abortion is wrong, but the source of your religion gives you no leg to stand upon. That is the fallacy of silence, your making an empty claim. In point of fact, the pro-choice side doesn't need to come up with any arguments; you just say, "abortion is wrong" and we ask, "Why?" and you have no answer. You say that we can infer God's will from other passages, but all of those - that dad quoted at length - deal with children, not fetuses, and so are irrelevant.
Numbers 5 undercuts you still further, by demonstrating that God and the Bible do not see fetuses as having human value. And all you can do is wave your hands and sputter. If you had any decent argument, you wouldn't need to ask for a commentary, you'd just be able to tell me - after five long pages of you saying nothing - why I'm wrong about Numbers 5. But you can't.

SPF said:
I provided quotes from early Church fathers that demonstrate that the original view of the early church was that abortion is immoral. Sure, people have disagreed and formed other opinions over the years, but if you want to talk about what the church originally believed, I can provide dozens of early church references on top of the ones I already have.

Most unfortunate that the Bible never considered abortion and the status of an unborn child to be worth defending! And no, I'm not interested in hearing about what the Church believes; I'm interested in hearing you admit that the Bible supports a pro-choice stance because it does not consider fetuses to be important.
Also, you haven't yet addressed the fact that the pro-life stance of Christians is historically very recent. You seem to be avoiding it. It shows you were wrong when you said that an anti-abortion position is the natural one for Christians to take.

SPF said:
Your case is based upon an entirely subjective and arbitrary position, which even other pro-abortion atheist proponents disagree with. Any attempt to argue personhood will necessarily be subjective and arbitrary.

Since you can't show any mistakes in my reasons and position, your rejection of them is hollow. You'd like me to be wrong, but you can't show how I am.
Also, just by the way, plenty of pro-choice advocates are Christians, even today; and, I have to keep emphasising, because you have shown an astonishing inability to understand this, until recently, most non-Catholic Christians were pro-choice.

InterestedAtheist · Feb 20, 2019

Kaon said:
No, it is not an abortion.
Re-read the bold you quoted from me. Then, go back and Re-read what you said about God supinappropriate contenting abortion. After that, go back and read Genesis and Exodus. Then, after that use etymological research for each word in Numbers - if you care.
Or, continue to say that God supports abortion. But, before I even responded to you @SPF eviscerated your entire argument without you realizing it. I know this, because instead of retreating to another thread out of embarrassment, you are still here arguing your erroneous point.

As expected, saying a lot but meaning a little.
Giving a pregnant woman a drink that causes her to miscarry is exactly what an abortion is.
Funny that SPF eviscerated my argument, but can't say how he did it. Or you.

Kaon said:
This is your opinion - even down to "how you feel," which is where you seem to be basing your arguments. Feelings lie, especially when you do not know the cultural history of the people, or the etymological origins of the canonical texts.

Uh huh. So you haven't read the argument either about why a fetus isn't a person, or you didn't understand it, or you feel you can't argue against it?

Kaon said:
As I said, go back and actually read Genesis, and Exodus. Then, look up the etymological origins of the words in Numbers.
You may also want to pick up a chemistry book on transport phenomena, and biochemistry to understand what the Hebrews knew. If you go around expressing your feelings as fact, you will be identified very easily on these forums. You will be intellectually and spiritually smoked out for your superficiality, and it will be up to you to keep defending a point that is misplaced (at best) according the same text used to make the point. @SPF has already eviscerated your argument with references, but you still try - which is admirable. But it can be dangerous for YOU, spiritually (if you care about your spirit or believe you have one).

Wow. Quite the biochemists, these guys! And there I thought that writing a spell and making someone drink the words was some form of primitive sympathetic magic!
Thank you for enlightening me - about the lengths that some people will go to to avoid the obvious.

Kaon · Feb 20, 2019

InterestedAtheist said:
As expected, saying a lot but meaning a little.
Giving a pregnant woman a drink that causes her to miscarry is exactly what an abortion is.
Funny that SPF eviscerated my argument, but can't say how he did it. Or you.

Uh huh. So you haven't read the argument either about why a fetus isn't a person, or you didn't understand it, or you feel you can't argue against it?

Wow. Quite the biochemists, these guys! And there I thought that writing a spell and making someone drink the words was some form of primitive sympathetic magic!
Thank you for enlightening me - about the lengths that some people will go to to avoid the obvious.

I hope you find what you are looking for.

InterestedAtheist · Feb 20, 2019

Kaon said:
I hope you find what you are looking for.

Thank you. You too.

dad · Feb 20, 2019

InterestedAtheist said:
It's fairly basic, really. A fetus develops, becoming capable of more and more as it grows. Abortions are performed before it is capable of "jumping for joy", and long before they are "newborn". Can I suggest you familiarise yourself with what happens in the nine months between an egg being fertilised and a baby being born?

Sacrificing the baby occurs before you realize what it may be capable of. You don't even realize what other people are capable of. The closed minded cold little paradigm of pain and death that science has spawned is not of God.

dad · Feb 20, 2019

InterestedAtheist said:
Of course I am. It's quite easy to tell what "babies" are capable of. And your ideas about "the spirit of God" are merely your own opinions.

Tell us how you determine what babies are capable of? As for your rejection of the spiritual, you certainly do so with no evidence.

The bible says "Do this ceremony and, if your pregnant wife was unfaithful, she will miscarry". It's really as simple as that.

It is also true that the water did not do anything! God was the only Active ingredient that mattered!

InterestedAtheist · Feb 20, 2019

dad said:
Sacrificing the baby occurs before you realize what it may be capable of. You don't even realize what other people are capable of. The closed minded cold little paradigm of pain and death that science has spawned is not of God.

Yawn. Go and read a science textbook about fetal development.

dad said:
Tell us how you determine what babies are capable of? As for your rejection of the spiritual, you certainly do so with no evidence.

Because it was asserted with no evidence. In other words, "so you say".

dad said:
It is also true that the water did not do anything! God was the only Active ingredient that mattered!

Please stop saying this. you've said it several times, and each time I've pointed out why you're wrong. Go back to posts #43 and #75, and see where I answered this already.

dad · Feb 20, 2019

InterestedAtheist said:
Yawn. Go and read a science textbook about fetal development.

The bible text from God tells us a lot about that.

Please stop saying this. you've said it several times, and each time I've pointed out why you're wrong. Go back to posts #43 and #75, and see where I answered this already.

Your answer is overruled, refuted, and corrected. You should admit that the very same drink that an innocent woman drank had zero effect. The water was simply nothing special. The issue was the warning from God on sin, and consequences.

ToddNotTodd · Feb 20, 2019

dad said:
The bible text from God tells us a lot about that.

Demonstrably false...

dad · Feb 20, 2019

ToddNotTodd said:
Demonstrably false...

The bible text from God tells us that He loves us in the womb, and that He forms us. It also mentions that His spirit can be in babies in the belly. Now let's see your demo!

ToddNotTodd · Feb 20, 2019

dad said:
The bible text from God tells us that He loves us in the womb, and that He forms us. It also mentions that His spirit can be in babies in the belly. Now let's see your demo!

That’s two sentences regarding (and I’m being generous here) the topic. Science textbooks contain hundreds of pages of information about fetal development. It’s no contest. Science books have more information... And of course your “information “ isn’t verifiable...

Natsumi Lam · Feb 20, 2019

dad said:
I have been thinking lately about how God might be working in America primarily due to the abortion issue there. Almost a feeling that God is fed up with a nation that has proclaimed faith in Him in many ways, that is plunging deeply into murdering children. I have the feeling that He is about to act.

I read an article linking ancient child sacrifice to abortions. Here is a quote from it

"...Tertullian, for example, commenting on the Roman practice of infanticide by comparing it to the Carthaginian practice of child sacrifice, admonishes:

there is no difference as to baby killing whether you do it as a sacred rite or just because you choose to do it.

In the same context Tertullian describes the Christian attitude towards both abortion and infanticide saying:

For us murder is once for all forbidden; so even the child in the womb, while yet the mother's blood is still being drawn on to form the human being, it is not lawful to destroy. To forbid birth is only quicker murder. It makes no difference whether one take away the life once born or destroy it as it comes to birth. He is a man, who is to be a man, the fruit is always present in the seed.[30]

The most obvious parallel between the rite of child sacrifice and the practice of abortion is the sober fact that the parents actually kill their own offspring. There are however many other parallels. At Carthage the main reason for sacrificing a child was to avert potential dangers in a crisis or to gain success through fulfilling a vow. Today many times when a woman faces an unwanted pregnancy, abortion seems to be the only way to resolve the crisis she finds herself in. The potential danger to reputation, education, career, etc., become overwhelming. To avert the seemingly terrifying consequences of carrying a pregnancy to term, the woman may turn to abortion as a means of escape. Another woman may experience much less of the anxiety and fear that accompany a crisis. She may simply see the pregnancy as an intrusion into her self-serving lifestyle and an obstacle in the way of the road to her success. Sadly this woman's offspring must be sacrificed so that she can continue uninterrupted with her plans for the future.[30b]"

Abortion and the Ancient Practice of Child Sacrifice

Here is my suggestion for America...and eventually, the world.

'Repent, or perish'

Literally.
.

I think abortion is just another example of modern day babies sacrificed to Baal and Molock

dad · Feb 21, 2019

Natsumi Lam said:
I think abortion is just another example of modern day babies sacrificed to Baal and Molock

Bang on. Similar, yet modern folks do not generally sacrifice to old gods. They sacrifice to self, and selfishness, and fear, and various things like that. However the act is the same.

InterestedAtheist · Feb 21, 2019

dad said:
The bible text from God tells us a lot about that.

If we are talking about fetal development, you should look to a science textbook.

dad said:
Your answer is overruled, refuted, and corrected. You should admit that the very same drink that an innocent woman drank had zero effect. The water was simply nothing special. The issue was the warning from God on sin, and consequences.

Of course the water had no effect. Of course (in the story, at least) it would be God doing the work. You missed where I answered this before, twice. I said:
"Did the man and the priest know what would happen in advance? Obviously they did, as Numbers 5 told them. Therefore, they knew that the outcome of the ritual might be an abortion; therefore, the responsibility of the abortion is on them."
The Bible tells you that if you drink this ordinary-if-ridiculously-dirty water, then it might end in an abortion. The husband then says, "Yes, that's what I'm going to make my wife do." The priest says, "Yes! That's what God says you should do." They knew, in advance, that this was promised to happen, and since the husband suspected his wife, he must surely have thought it would happen.

dad said:
The bible text from God tells us that He loves us in the womb, and that He forms us. It also mentions that His spirit can be in babies in the belly.

Those don't sound like they mean anything. Okay, God can see us when we are fetuses. He's God, he can see everything. And he loves us. Well, God is apparently omnibenevolent, so, so what? And his spirit can be in babies? Well, when we have cases of preborn children speaking in tongues, let me know. Otherwise, that sounds like mere poetic figures of speech. You've really got to do better than this. You can't just pull some vague sentences out of the Bible and expect them to carry any weight.

dad · Feb 21, 2019

InterestedAtheist said:
If we are talking about fetal development, you should look to a science textbook.

Why would I look to child sacrifice supporting letters from the blind mice of so called science? They do not even know the main parts of what makes a human. They do not know God or that He is the One who sends children. They have no clue about the child's connection to heaven. No clue about what the spirit does in the whole process. No clue where the baby came from or will go. Nor does so called science have any morals!

"Did the man and the priest know what would happen in advance? Obviously they did, as Numbers 5 told them. Therefore, they knew that the outcome of the ritual might be an abortion; therefore, the responsibility of the abortion is on them."

What would happen was that God would do something, or at least they had the warning that if there was certain behavior, God would act. The water was nothing.

The Bible tells you that if you drink this ordinary-if-ridiculously-dirty water,

I didn't notice that it was tablespoons of dust that was to be put in the water. You have an active imagination. It could have been a tiniest sprinkle in that holy water. Probably cleaner than your tapwater.

They knew, in advance, that this was promised to happen, and since the husband suspected his wife, he must surely have thought it would happen.

A warning is like that, the idea is that people are supposed to know, so they can avoid the penalty. If you see cops with radar on a highway do you speed up? If you see a sign that says do not enter by some slippery rocks near dangerous falls, do you take tap dance lessons there?

Those don't sound like they mean anything. Okay, God can see us when we are fetuses. He's God, he can see everything. And he loves us. Well, God is apparently omnibenevolent, so, so what? And his spirit can be in babies? Well, when we have cases of preborn children speaking in tongues, let me know. Otherwise, that sounds like mere poetic figures of speech. You've really got to do better than this. You can't just pull some vague sentences out of the Bible and expect them to carry any weight.

The job of babies is not to jump out of the womb before being ready and start being an anchorwoman or man at some charismatic church. However, babies do have effects on parents! John the Baptist even prophesied in the womb. He kicked up a storm soon as baby Jesus was near which sent a loud message.

Rajni · Feb 21, 2019

And I repeat:

RayJeena said:
God, in His omniscience, has the power to foreknow which wombs are abortion-
prone and move to prevent the abortion from taking place by withholding
conception from that womb.

But some would have us believe that He instead stands by passively,
wringing His hands about it until He supposedly reaches some future saturation-
point, where He then goes ballistic on an entire nation over it.

Sorry, doesn’t add up.

-

InterestedAtheist · Feb 22, 2019

dad said:
Why would I look to child sacrifice supporting letters from the blind mice of so called science? They do not even know the main parts of what makes a human. They do not know God or that He is the One who sends children. They have no clue about the child's connection to heaven. No clue about what the spirit does in the whole process. No clue where the baby came from or will go. Nor does so called science have any morals!

Scientists know a lot. They know a lot more than you. they certainly know a lot more than you about how a human grows inside its mother, and what it is capable of at different ages.
This is speaking the obvious, really, but there we go.

dad said:
What would happen was that God would do something, or at least they had the warning that if there was certain behavior, God would act. The water was nothing.

You've missed the point a number of times now, but I don't mind explaining again.
They husband and priest knew what might happen if the woman drank the water, so they knew what they might be doing to her fetus.
In other words, the Bible shows that God doesn't care about killing fetuses because he tells people, "Bring your unfaithful wives to me and I will give them a shameful punishment, which may involve their pregnancy being...what's a good word for "stopped"? Ah, yes. "Aborted".

dad said:
I didn't notice that it was tablespoons of dust that was to be put in the water. You have an active imagination. It could have been a tiniest sprinkle in that holy water. Probably cleaner than your tapwater.

Hehe. Very funny. Well, this isn't actually an important point, so we can let it go. But why don't you go and pick up a sprinkle of dust from a busy shop, and put it in your drinking water. Would you feel comfortable doing that?

dad said:
A warning is like that, the idea is that people are supposed to know, so they can avoid the penalty. If you see cops with radar on a highway do you speed up? If you see a sign that says do not enter by some slippery rocks near dangerous falls, do you take tap dance lessons there?

Sure. But they didn't all avoid the penalty, did they? Or do you think the number of unfaithful wives and jealous husbands dropped to zero after God said that?
This, however, is to miss the point even further. Numbers 5 promises that God will abort a woman's pregnancy under certain conditions. God wouldn't promise that if he saw anything wrong with abortion. Ergo, God doesn't see anything wrong with abortion.

dad said:
The job of babies is not to jump out of the womb before being ready and start being an anchorwoman or man at some charismatic church. However, babies do have effects on parents! John the Baptist even prophesied in the womb. He kicked up a storm soon as baby Jesus was near which sent a loud message.

Have you read the argument I made about the morality of abortion yet? If you can point out why it's wrong, I'll be interested to see. Note - claiming that it's "evil" isn't an answer.
Otherwise, I'll add you to the list of people unable to prove that abortion is wrong (your "feelings" about it don't count, I'm afraid).

dad · Feb 22, 2019

InterestedAtheist said:
Scientists know a lot. They know a lot more than you. they certainly know a lot more than you about how a human grows inside its mother, and what it is capable of at different ages.
This is speaking the obvious, really, but there we go

No. They are absolute buffoons when it comes to what life and babies are all about, or where we came from, or where we are going, or why. It is the duty of good and rational men to hold their views in utter contempt!

You've missed the point a number of times now, but I don't mind explaining again.
They husband and priest knew what might happen if the woman drank the water, so they knew what they might be doing to her fetus.
In other words, the Bible shows that God doesn't care about killing fetuses because he tells people, "Bring your unfaithful wives to me and I will give them a shameful punishment, which may involve their pregnancy being...what's a good word for "stopped"? Ah, yes. "Aborted".

You have not shown that that warning resulted in even one instance of an adulteress actually even submitting to this water/sin test. For all I know it may have just served as a warning and worked. The water killed nothing even if anyone had ever drank it! A sprinkling of dust in water is simply not harmful. The only thing that would have happened had anyone would have drank the water, is that Gd would have taken action if they had hearts that were not right with Him, and were lying to the spirit of God. I see nothing in the chapter that says any baby would be cut up, killed or otherwise injured! If there had of been an instance where the test was actually performed, God would have taken the baby, relocated it to a better home.

In the child sacrifices of today, the babied are butchered, poisoned, hacked, or otherwise murdered with no possibility of some better life. The whole idea is death. Death Death. The ground calls out with the blood of hundreds of millions of children sacrificed.

Hehe. Very funny. Well, this isn't actually an important point, so we can let it go. But why don't you go and pick up a sprinkle of dust from a busy shop, and put it in your drinking water. Would you feel comfortable doing that?

Ever heard of Kool aid, or coffee, or juice, or water purification tablets, or chlorination etc?

Sure. But they didn't all avoid the penalty, did they?

I would guess yes. But hey, prove me wrong!

Or do you think the number of unfaithful wives and jealous husbands dropped to zero after God said that?

Well, the ones going to the temple at least may have got wise

This, however, is to miss the point even further. Numbers 5 promises that God will abort a woman's pregnancy under certain conditions. God wouldn't promise that if he saw anything wrong with abortion. Ergo, God doesn't see anything wrong with abortion.

A warning is not killing a baby. Adopting a child to a better home, as would have happened if anyone had of taken that water and was an adulteress lying to God and man, is not killing anything! In any case no sacrificing and killing was involved at all. You are officially overruled and your point defeated.

Have you read the argument I made about the morality of abortion yet? If you can point out why it's wrong, I'll be interested to see. Note - claiming that it's "evil" isn't an answer.
Otherwise, I'll add you to the list of people unable to prove that abortion is wrong (your "feelings" about it don't count, I'm afraid).

You could put the justifications for mass murder in a paragraph if you like. I probably heard it all anyhow though. Here is something that potential child sacrificers should consider, in my opinion. It doesn't really matter what excuse you have, just do not kill people!

InterestedAtheist · Feb 22, 2019

dad said:
You could put the justifications for mass murder in a paragraph if you like. I probably heard it all anyhow though. Here is something that potential child sacrificers should consider, in my opinion. It doesn't really matter what excuse you have, just do not kill people!

Oh well. You're too much for me, dad. You're convinced you're right, and when things show you're wrong you just ignore them. I've pointed out your mistakes several times, and you keep repeating them. So I guess I've spent enough time talking to you by now. Take care.

dad · Feb 22, 2019

InterestedAtheist said:
Oh well. You're too much for me, dad. You're convinced you're right, and when things show you're wrong you just ignore them. I've pointed out your mistakes several times, and you keep repeating them. So I guess I've spent enough time talking to you by now. Take care.

The mistake was for you to try and justify child sacrifices or insinuate God was in agreement. Cheers

Child sacrifice in America dealt with by heaven

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