Child sacrifice in America dealt with by heaven

[dad]

I have been thinking lately about how God might be working in America primarily due to the abortion issue there. Almost a feeling that God is fed up with a nation that has proclaimed faith in Him in many ways, that is plunging deeply into murdering children. I have the feeling that He is about to act.

I read an article linking ancient child sacrifice to abortions. Here is a quote from it

"...Tertullian, for example, commenting on the Roman practice of infanticide by comparing it to the Carthaginian practice of child sacrifice, admonishes:

there is no difference as to baby killing whether you do it as a sacred rite or just because you choose to do it.

In the same context Tertullian describes the Christian attitude towards both abortion and infanticide saying:

For us murder is once for all forbidden; so even the child in the womb, while yet the mother's blood is still being drawn on to form the human being, it is not lawful to destroy. To forbid birth is only quicker murder. It makes no difference whether one take away the life once born or destroy it as it comes to birth. He is a man, who is to be a man, the fruit is always present in the seed.[30]

The most obvious parallel between the rite of child sacrifice and the practice of abortion is the sober fact that the parents actually kill their own offspring. There are however many other parallels. At Carthage the main reason for sacrificing a child was to avert potential dangers in a crisis or to gain success through fulfilling a vow. Today many times when a woman faces an unwanted pregnancy, abortion seems to be the only way to resolve the crisis she finds herself in. The potential danger to reputation, education, career, etc., become overwhelming. To avert the seemingly terrifying consequences of carrying a pregnancy to term, the woman may turn to abortion as a means of escape. Another woman may experience much less of the anxiety and fear that accompany a crisis. She may simply see the pregnancy as an intrusion into her self-serving lifestyle and an obstacle in the way of the road to her success. Sadly this woman's offspring must be sacrificed so that she can continue uninterrupted with her plans for the future.[30b]"

Abortion and the Ancient Practice of Child Sacrifice



Here is my suggestion for America...and eventually, the world.

'Repent, or perish'

Literally.
.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

From the link....

Among the social elite of Punic Carthage the institution of child sacrifice may have assisted in the consolidation and maintenance of family wealth. One hardly needed several children parceling up the patrimony into smaller and smaller pieces . . . for the artisans and commoners of Carthage, ritual infanticide could provide a hedge against poverty. For all these participants in this aspect of the cult, then, child sacrifice provided special favors from the gods.[16]

So basically it was driven by socio-economic exigencies with bit of religious rubbish thrown in so people would not need to face their actions without some emotionally mitigating factors.

Just like nowadays I am sure there were lots of religious minded folk who claimed that child sacrife was to blame for the fate of Carthage.

Of course in their case it was probably loud claims that not enough babies had been fed to Baal and the wrath of God was upon them.

Which just shows how ridicilous it is to try to create a link through whatever specific action a nation does and how God would act upon it.

Perhaps more reasonable course of action would have been not to contend for hegemony with the Romans.....

 

[Desk trauma]

How does the abortion rate falling to near pre-roe levels figure into this?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Funnily enough, the Bible itself doesn't forbid abortion. In fact, it supports it.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Funnily enough, the Bible itself doesn't forbid abortion. In fact, it supports it.

It supports a women being stoned to death for adultery too.

 

[New Birth]

Funnily enough, the Bible itself doesn't forbid abortion. In fact, it supports it.

supporting scriptures please.

 

[dad]

From the link....

Among the social elite of Punic Carthage the institution of child sacrifice may have assisted in the consolidation and maintenance of family wealth. One hardly needed several children parceling up the patrimony into smaller and smaller pieces . . . for the artisans and commoners of Carthage, ritual infanticide could provide a hedge against poverty. For all these participants in this aspect of the cult, then, child sacrifice provided special favors from the gods.[16]

So basically it was driven by socio-economic exigencies with bit of religious rubbish thrown in so people would not need to face their actions without some emotionally mitigating factors.

Just like nowadays I am sure there were lots of religious minded folk who claimed that child sacrife was to blame for the fate of Carthage.

Of course in their case it was probably loud claims that not enough babies had been fed to Baal and the wrath of God was upon them.

Which just shows how ridicilous it is to try to create a link through whatever specific action a nation does and how God would act upon it.

Perhaps more reasonable course of action would have been not to contend for hegemony with the Romans.....

You seem to think it matters what motives people have for human sacrifices. Sorry. No. It is clear from the article in the OP that God hates it. That is what matters.

 

[PreviouslySeeking...]

I figure your God would've done something (if he cared) when abortion rates were higher. The use of abortifacients and cunning women to end unwanted pregnancies is as old as well, pregnancy. Abortion isn't modern and isn't going to end the world. A pregnancy is potential, not a guarantee. Honestly, as many (or more) pregnancies end in miscarriage (aka spontaneous abortion) as elective abortion. A high percentage of fertilized eggs don't end up with names or baby blankets- it appears to be a feature of the system, not a flaw.

 

[dad]

I figure your God would've done something (if he cared) when abortion rates were higher. The use of abortifacients and cunning women to end unwanted pregnancies is as old as well, pregnancy. Abortion isn't modern and isn't going to end the world. A pregnancy is potential, not a guarantee. Honestly, as many (or more) pregnancies end in miscarriage (aka spontaneous abortion) as elective abortion. A high percentage of fertilized eggs don't end up with names or baby blankets- it appears to be a feature of the system, not a flaw.

Child sacrifices are old as history, that is true. However. when Israel (God's people) got involved, the boom was lowered. And I notice the Canaanites and Amorites didn't get off so easy either.The biggest supply of missionaries has been the US. They claim to trust God on coins and etc. I would suspect that it would be a compliment to be considered worthy of being judged first! He judges His Own people first. While the US is pagan as can be these days, the country has been considered in the past to have been a Christian nation. The whole world will stand to account for the child sacrifices, of course one day soon. If the US was first on the list, as I say, it should count itself fortunate.

 

[dad]

It supports a women being stoned to death for adultery too.

Jesus did not cast a stone actually. You should try to differentiate what God commanded for His nation in the distant past from what the bible says about now.

 

[PreviouslySeeking...]

Well, there is no argument you can make to convince me of any of that. Good day to you.

 

[SPF]

Funnily enough, the Bible itself doesn't forbid abortion. In fact, it supports it.

Scripture Reference?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

supporting scriptures please.

Numbers, Chapter 5. If a man is jealous of his pregnant wife, or thinks that she has been unfaithful to him, she is to be tested; and if she fails to pass the test, the fetus will be aborted:
Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 5 - New International Version
19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a cursed]">[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”
23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memoriale offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse.

This is very clear - if the woman has been unfaithful, the consequences of this ritual are that her fetus will be killed.

Now that it has been shown that God has no objection to killing an unborn child, could you please provide me with a passage from the Bible in which it says that you should never perform an abortion. Not "thou shalt not kill" (as Numbers 5 shows that God supports killing an unborn fetus), but a clear quote showing that an abortion itself - the act of aborting an unborn child deliberately - is wrong.

 

[dad]

Numbers, Chapter 5. If a man is jealous of his pregnant wife, or thinks that she has been unfaithful to him, she is to be tested; and if she fails to pass the test, the fetus will be aborted:
Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 5 - New International Version
19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a cursed]">[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”
23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memoriale offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse.

This is very clear - if the woman has been unfaithful, the consequences of this ritual are that her fetus will be killed.

Now that it has been shown that God has no objection to killing an unborn child, could you please provide me with a passage from the Bible in which it says that you should never perform an abortion. Not "thou shalt not kill" (as Numbers 5 shows that God supports killing an unborn fetus), but a clear quote showing that an abortion itself - the act of aborting an unborn child deliberately - is wrong.

Trying to deflect the child sacrifices going on today with some lame attempt at accusing God eh?

One difference I can think of between abortion procedures, and a woman drinking water in the ancient world, is that the water didn't bother the innocent folks at all. Abortion procedures murder the child every time. ( except for a few, often disfigured or injured survivors that is). In fact the innocent were even gifted with a child!!

Num 5: 27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. 28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.

The idea was to punish evil doers in the nation God was setting up to be the path to the salvation of mankind.

That same God punished people who sacrificed their kids, and made it clear He was nothing like that! In fact, when He came down to earth, He made it clear...as the old song goes 'Jesus loves the little children, all the little children..'

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Trying to deflect the child sacrifices going on today with some lame attempt at accusing God eh?

Sorry you don't like it. It's your holy book that says it, you know. I do notice that in your reply you didn't actually disagree with or disprove anything I said.

One difference I can think of between abortion procedures, and a woman drinking water in the ancient world, is that the water didn't bother the innocent folks at all. Abortion procedures murder the child every time. ( except for a few, often disfigured or injured survivors that is). In fact the innocent were even gifted with a child!!

Completely irrelevant. The point is that God endorses abortions. Please don't, as you put it, try to deflect.

The idea was to punish evil doers in the nation God was setting up to be the path to the salvation of mankind.

That may have been the idea, but apparently the effect is to punish the innocent, unborn child.
Of course, I think that aborting a fetus is morally neutral. If this did happen (which it may have done) and if it did work (which of course I don't believe it did) then this is a problem for anyone who believes that personhood begins ay conception, and that abortion is the murder of a child. Because apparently the Bible doesn't just disagree with that, it commands that abortions be performed.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Jesus did not cast a stone actually. You should try to differentiate what God commanded for His nation in the distant past from what the bible says about now.

I was attempting to do that . Context is everything. Saying the Bible supports abortion is in the same vein as saying it supports stoning. You can find both in the Old Testament.

 

[SPF]

Numbers, Chapter 5. If a man is jealous of his pregnant wife, or thinks that she has been unfaithful to him, she is to be tested; and if she fails to pass the test, the fetus will be aborted:
Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 5 - New International Version
19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a cursed]">[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”
23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memoriale offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse.

This is very clear - if the woman has been unfaithful, the consequences of this ritual are that her fetus will be killed.

I'm not sure who told you that the jealousy offering was meant to induce abortion, but I suspect it was by someone who was not a Christian who was trying to discredit Scripture. There is nothing in the passage that even hints at the suggestion that the woman was even pregnant, much less attempting to induce an abortion.

The oath which the priest required her to take is called, in Num_5:21, הָאָלָה שְׁבֻעַת, “oath of cursing” (see Gen_26:28); but it first of all presupposes the possibility of the woman being innocent, and contains the assurance, that in that case the curse-water would do her no harm. “If no (other) man has lain with thee, and thou hast not gone aside to union (טֻמְאָה, accus. of more precise definition, as in Lev_15:2, Lev_15:18), under thy husband,” i.e., as a wife subject to thy husband (Eze_23:5; Hos_4:12), “then remain free from the water of bitterness, this curse-bringing,” i.e., from the effects of this curse-water.

The imperative is a sign of certain assurance (see Gen_12:2; Gen_20:7; cf. Ges. §130, 1). “But if thou hast gone aside under thy husband, if thou hast defiled thyself, and a man has given thee his seed beside thy husband,”...(the priest shall proceed to say; this is the meaning of the repetition of לָאִשָּׁה...וְהִשְׁבִּיעַ, Num_5:21), “Jehovah shall make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, by making thy hip to fall and thy belly to swell; and this curse-bringing water shall come into thy bowels, to make the belly to vanish and the hip to fall.” To this oath that was spoken before her the woman was to reply, “true, true,” or “truly, truly,” and thus confirm it as taken by herself (cf. Deu_27:15.; Neh_5:13).

It cannot be determined with any certainty what was the nature of the disease threatened in this curse. Michaelis supposes it to be dropsy of the ovary (hydrops ovarii), in which a tumour is formed in the place of the ovarium, which may even swell so as to contain 100 lbs. of fluid, and with which the patient becomes dreadfully emaciated. Josephus says it is ordinary dropsy (hydrops ascites: Ant. iii. 11, 6). At any rate, the idea of the curse is this: Δι ̓ ὧν γὰρ ἡ ἁμαρτία, διὰ τούτων ἡ τιμωρία (“the punishment shall come from the same source as the sin,” Theodoret). The punishment was to answer exactly to the crime, and to fall upon those bodily organs which had been the instruments of the woman's sin, viz., the organs of child-bearing. -Keil & Delitzsch

I think the real issue actually that atheists or any non-Christian has with passages like this is that they are forced to read this and all Scripture for that matter, through the lens of believing life is all about them. One of the main things that Christians understand about life is that God is actually in control, that His glory is more important than mine, and that at the end of the day, life isn't about us. When you read Scripture from the standpoint of not understanding that you are a sinner, that you are actually accountable for your actions, and that there is actually a God that requires something from you - when you read Scripture from an inward looking worldview, a lot of it simply won't make sense.

Passages that call God the Potter and us the clay, and then saying that doesn't the Potter have the right to do with the clay that he wants become offensive and outrageous to those who don't believe. Whereas to us who know God, they are a comfort.

But back to the passage - Nothing in the text suggests that the death of a fetus is involved. And even if the death of a fetus did occur, we have to recognize that our sin never effects just us. The woman literally takes an oath, before God, requesting the curse be brought upon her if she is lying. Our sin never effects just us. The death of a child in this situation may not seem fair or right to you, but the fact is that we rarely ever actually comprehend the nature of sin and the effects our sin has upon those around us.

Now that it has been shown that God has no objection to killing an unborn child, could you please provide me with a passage from the Bible in which it says that you should never perform an abortion. Not "thou shalt not kill" (as Numbers 5 shows that God supports killing an unborn fetus), but a clear quote showing that an abortion itself - the act of aborting an unborn child deliberately - is wrong.

I don't think there is a passage that blatantly says, "Thou shalt not have an abortion." But there doesn't need to be. There isn't a passage that blatantly says, "Thous shalt not steal cars." But there is little doubt that Christians believe it is immoral to steal cars.

Christians rely on Biblical principals to make moral decisions. There are certain objective and clear moral commands in Scripture, but a lot of times the decisions we make and the beliefs we hold concerning morality are going to be based upon principals.

For a Christian, it's easy to believe that abortion is wrong.

1. Science has shown that a new and unique human individual comes into existence at fertilization.
2. Scripture teaches that all humans are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.

With just those simple facts, it's not hard for Christians to come to the conclusion that the 98.5% of abortions committed for convenience reasons are immoral.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

It's difficult, isn't it? When the bible, the holy book that is supposed to be able to guide you, and certainly not to steer you wrong, turns out to say things that directly contradict your most cherished beliefs. I understand your need to deny what you can see there, to rationalise it, to attack the messenger. I'm even quite impressed by the effort you took to do it. Let's see...
"You must have gotten that from an atheist source, so it means nothing." Check!
"It actually has nothing to do with abortion" - a passage that says "drink this special liquid, and if you have lain with a man who was not your husband, you will miscarry. Check!
"It's quite understandable that you misunderstood the passage, because you read it in the wrong way, as atheists are wont to do." Check!
"Of course nothing in the bible backs up the pro-life position. How foolish of you to think we need to cite evidence!" Check!
A hasty reference to science, to try to paper over the cracks. Check!
In fact, SPF, the text means what it says, and the reason the Bible has no condemnation of abortion is because the writers - correctly, as it turned out - realised that a fetus was not the same thing as a baby.

Also, since you seem to think that condemning abortion is an obvious and easy moral choice for a Christian, perhaps you are unaware that the pro-life stance is, historically speaking, very recent? That, well within living memory, evangelical Christians had no problems with abortion. Strange, isn't it?

 

[SPF]

and the reason the Bible has no condemnation of abortion is because the writers - correctly, as it turned out - realised that a fetus was not the same thing as a baby.

You're of course wrong. And the only evidence that you can supply from Scripture to try and demonstrate that abortion is acceptable is to quote a passage about an offering that was made by a woman in which she quite literally requests God curse her if she's lying. The context of the passage has absolutely nothing to do with abortion.

What you can't provide from Scripture is a passage, taken in its proper context, that is about abortion, in which it defends it or states that it is acceptable.

We wouldn't expect to find it because what Scripture does provide us is with passages that teach about how all humans are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value. We find passages about how murder is immoral and wrong. It isn't difficult to derive from the Biblical principals that the 98.5% of abortions which are committed for convenience reasons are indeed immoral.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

It speaks a lot about your open-mindedness that you begin a response with "you are, of course, wrong."
And of course, you have nothing to say about your own mistakes, which I pointed out.
Also, that's a strange interpretation you have. The passage doesn't say the woman asked to be cursed. It says that if her husband is jealous he can take her to be tested. Your creative retelling are quite bold!
And yes, I can find a passage which supports abortion. You just don't like it, and so deny that it very plainly says "God will punish a woman who has been unfaithful by killing her unborn child."
I notice that you didn't cite any quotes in response. That is because there are none in the Bible against abortion, despite it being well-known to the writers.
And that's the long and the short of it. The Bible has nothing against abortion. Good for it!