Child sacrifice in America dealt with by heaven

[SPF]

It speaks a lot about your open-mindedness that you begin a response with "you are, of course, wrong."

Or it speaks about my knowledge on this particular subject.

And of course, you have nothing to say about your own mistakes, which I pointed out.

I didn't see you point out any mistakes, other than disagreeing with the proper understanding of the passage. What specific mistakes are you referencing?

That is because there are none in the Bible against abortion, despite it being well-known to the writers.
And that's the long and the short of it. The Bible has nothing against abortion. Good for it!

I think this also demonstrates your fundamental misunderstanding of what the Bible is, and its purpose. I don't look to Scripture to answer all my moral questions, that's not its purpose or function. The primary purpose of Scripture is to reveal who God is, and His will for us. I'm OK with the Bible not addressing every specific moral dilemma that we, or any other generation may or may not face. The Biblical principles are sufficient to address them.

And yes, I can find a passage which supports abortion. You just don't like it

Again, the passage your provided does not teach that abortion is morally permissible. Frankly, I'm surprised you didn't use Exodus 21, that's the typical passage people take out of context to argue in favor of abortion.

Also, since you seem to think that condemning abortion is an obvious and easy moral choice for a Christian, perhaps you are unaware that the pro-life stance is, historically speaking, very recent? That, well within living memory, evangelical Christians had no problems with abortion. Strange, isn't it?

This of course has no bearing upon the morality of abortion. I would be more than happy to provide dozens of references from early church fathers condemning abortion if it would be helpful to you.

The fact of the matter is that Christians consider humans to be created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value. Yes, that means that I think you, InterestedAtheist are a morally valuable human being. So it really should be of no surprise to anyone that Christians are against abortion when 98.5% of them are done for convenience reasons.

 

[dad]

Sorry you don't like it. It's your holy book that says it, you know. I do notice that in your reply you didn't actually disagree with or disprove anything I said.

The idea was that a loving God set up a test to punish the wicked. He can do that.

Completely irrelevant. The point is that God endorses abortions. Please don't, as you put it, try to deflect.

Quite the opposite, the Lord says children are a blessing from Him, and sends them. He also punished the nations for human sacrifice, especially child sacrifice.

From the OP link
"In 1921 the largest cemetery of sacrificed infants in the ancient Near East was discovered at Carthage. It is well established that this rite of child sacrifice originated in Phoenicia, ancient Israel's northern neighbor, and was brought to Carthage by its Phoenician colonizers.[2] Hundreds of burial urns filled with the cremated bones of infants, mostly newborns but even some children up to age six years old, as well as animals have been uncovered at Carthage."

The remains of some 42 million children are found each year now in the world. That makes Cathage small potatoes in the human sacrifice dept comparatively.

That may have been the idea, but apparently the effect is to punish the innocent, unborn child.

Says you! God took them right to heaven with good parents! What are you talking about. The evil mom lost the blessing and was punished. Not only that, but if there was no serious crime, the mom was blessed with a child!

Of course, I think that aborting a fetus is morally neutral.

I read about some guy that stabbed a mom and killed the baby inside in New York. They tossed out the case apparently if the story was true, because the new laws do not consider the baby a person or some such. That is wickedness.

If this did happen (which it may have done) and if it did work (which of course I don't believe it did) then this is a problem for anyone who believes that personhood begins ay conception, and that abortion is the murder of a child. Because apparently the Bible doesn't just disagree with that, it commands that abortions be performed.

God knows all about when we start. Having a baby be born to good parents in a good environment does not mean the child was killed! It means that the mom never got to be the one with the blessing.

 

[dad]

I was attempting to do that . Context is everything. Saying the Bible supports abortion is in the same vein as saying it supports stoning. You can find both in the Old Testament.

Oh, I see. Right you are then! The act of sacrificing children was so hideous and unthinkable to ancient Israel that it was not something laws needed to be passed against! No more than there was a law that said, don't stab your neighbor in the eye with a fork, and then desecrate his remains, and rape his children etc etc'.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Or it speaks about my knowledge on this particular subject.

Your knowledge of the subject has nor impressed me so far. It would be unkind to suggest that you are unable to grasp the simple point of a simple story. The problem is clearly that you don't like what it says, and so are trying to make it say something else.

I didn't see you point out any mistakes, other than disagreeing with the proper understanding of the passage. What specific mistakes are you referencing?

You said: "What you can't provide from Scripture is a passage, taken in its proper context, that is about abortion, in which it defends it or states that it is acceptable."
Of course, that is precisely what I've done.

I think this also demonstrates your fundamental misunderstanding of what the Bible is, and its purpose.

Let's not get off track. I posed a simple point, that the Bible is not against abortion, and even supports it. So far you have been unable to show this to be wrong.

Again, the passage your provided does not teach that abortion is morally permissible. Frankly, I'm surprised you didn't use Exodus 21, that's the typical passage people take out of context to argue in favor of abortion.

I think you're confusing abortion with slavery. I have seen that passage before, and it's an excellent argument against people who think that the Bible doesn't endorse slavery, which it does. But let's not get sidetracked. Numbers 5 quite clearly shows that a woman should be trialled for faithfulness and that, in the event of her being found guilty, one of the consequences is that she will be forced to miscarry.
In other words, an abortion.

This of course has no bearing upon the morality of abortion. I would be more than happy to provide dozens of references from early church fathers condemning abortion if it would be helpful to you.

Again, let's stay on track. The point is that you said abortion is an easy moral choice for Christians, and I pointed out that, until recently, Evangelical Christians supported a woman's right to have an abortion, until it became politically inconvenient for them. This shows that you are wrong; abortion is not an obvious moral evil. In fact, many Christians today still support a woman's right to choose.

But back to the passage - Nothing in the text suggests that the death of a fetus is involved. And even if the death of a fetus did occur, we have to recognize that our sin never effects just us. The woman literally takes an oath, before God, requesting the curse be brought upon her if she is lying. Our sin never effects just us. The death of a child in this situation may not seem fair or right to you, but the fact is that we rarely ever actually comprehend the nature of sin and the effects our sin has upon those around us.

That made enjoyable reading! "There's nothing there to show that an abortion did occur! And even if it did, it's alright anyway!"
With this use of "kettle logic", you prove my point.
First, yes, the death of the fetus is plainly described: "27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result...her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse."
Second, can I point out that, to me, abortion does not involve the death of a person, and so is a morally neutral event. It's you who has the problem with it, and despite your hand-waving about God working in mysterious ways, the plain fact is that the Bible endorses abortions - as you have now just admitted by claiming that the death of the fetus is a good thing because it punishes the wife for lying.

Twist and turn as much as you like. The truth is plain to see.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

The idea was that a loving God set up a test to punish the wicked. He can do that.

Uh huh. Well, we'll leave the question of God's right to be an abortionist for another discussion, and just point out that right now, we are discussing whether or not the Bible endorses abortions.

Says you! God took them right to heaven with good parents! What are you talking about. The evil mom lost the blessing and was punished. Not only that, but if there was no serious crime, the mom was blessed with a child!

Oh, good. So you do admit that the Bible endorses abortions (and apparently all abortions are now okay with you, because presumably the innocent fetus is taken to heaven?
You can't have the one without the other. If you tell me that abortions in the bible are okay because the fetus went straight to heaven, then the millions of "children" who are aborted in today's society went straight to heaven too!

It's really inconvenient for you, isn't it? You'd like to believe that abortion is evil, abortion is horrible, the world is full of horrible Nazis murdering children...and then, you have to say that abortion is fine because you can't say the Bible is in the wrong at Numbers 5.

 

[VCR-2000]

Child sacrifices are old as history, that is true. However. when Israel (God's people) got involved, the boom was lowered. And I notice the Canaanites and Amorites didn't get off so easy either.The biggest supply of missionaries has been the US. They claim to trust God on coins and etc. I would suspect that it would be a compliment to be considered worthy of being judged first! He judges His Own people first. While the US is pagan as can be these days, the country has been considered in the past to have been a Christian nation. The whole world will stand to account for the child sacrifices, of course one day soon. If the US was first on the list, as I say, it should count itself fortunate.

It honestly makes me upset that God gets to judge entire countries and have a special "contract" with them just because some certain group of people aren't in line with something. It's like a father punishing his whole group of children only because one of his sons was acting out.

 

[dad]

Uh huh. Well, we'll leave the question of God's right to be an abortionist for another discussion, and just point out that right now, we are discussing whether or not the Bible endorses abortions.

No it doesn't in any way.

Oh, good. So you do admit that the Bible endorses abortions (and apparently all abortions are now okay with you, because presumably the innocent fetus is taken to heaven?

Yes. Every one of the millions of murdered kids go to heaven. That doesn't mean human sacrifice is good. That means God is greater than wicked men.

You can't have the one without the other. If you tell me that abortions in the bible are okay because the fetus went straight to heaven, then the millions of "children" who are aborted in today's society went straight to heaven too!

I didn't say that. I said God blessed the mom with a baby unless she was hiding some horrible evil. In that case, He judged her by not giving her the blessing of the child.

God was not wrong to demand a standard of behavior from the nation He set up to be an example to the world. You are not God either, so you don't get to use what He does (that is high above your comprehension anyhow) as some excuse to mass murder and human sacrifice. Sorry.

 

[dad]

It honestly makes me upset that God gets to judge entire countries and have a special "contract" with them just because some certain group of people aren't in line with something. It's like a father punishing his whole group of children only because one of his sons was acting out.

There comes a point when man passes allowable limits. Such is history.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I didn't say that. I said God blessed the mom with a baby unless she was hiding some horrible evil. In that case, He judged her by not giving her the blessing of the child.

...and then what happens to the fetus? Because the question is, does the Bible support abortion? Answer, yes, it does. As you've just admitted.

God was not wrong to demand a standard of behavior from the nation He set up to be an example to the world. You are not God either, so you don't get to use what He does (that is high above your comprehension anyhow) as some excuse to mass murder and human sacrifice. Sorry.

It hardly comes as a surprise to hear you say "Behaviour X is wrong, except in cases where I say it is right".
Go on, tell me "it's not you, it's God deciding" next.

Game set and match. The Bible condones abortion. Thank you for your responses.

 

[dad]

...and then what happens to the fetus? Because the question is, does the Bible support abortion? Answer, yes, it does. As you've just admitted.

The question is can God deal with His people how He sees fit? Are you more righteous than God? You seem to be suggesting that He should have allowed vile wickedness in the people He was trying to set up to be a light to the world. You see to be suggesting no one had any right to judge sin. God has the right. You do not.

It hardly comes as a surprise to hear you say "Behaviour X is wrong, except in cases where I say it is right".

Human sacrifice is wrong and God said so. If you want to call drinking water voluntarily as a proof that you were innocent or guilty the same things a wicked people offering child sacrifices by the millions, you simply have no case.

The bible says children are a blessing and from God, and deals harshly with those who joined in child sacrifices. John the Baptist was not aborted nor his mom ever told to do such a thing. Nor was anyone else ever told to do that. God never told a mom to poison water then drink it! He Himself judged vile crimes in a time long ago in the people He chose.

For you to accuse God of child sacrifices and wickedness and try to use that as an excuse to justify millions of babies a year being burned, and mutilated and murdered by evil men and women is completely wrong.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I'm afraid, dad, that this is just a lot of hand-waving to avoid the crucial issue. I'm not interested in discussing God's role as judge, or your curious ideas about "child sacrifice". My point, which you tried and failed to address, is that the Bible does not condemn abortion. All you're doing is picking fights with strawmen because you know you can't win the real fight.

One more time:
"27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children."

In other words:
1. Drink this special liquid.
2. If you have been unfaithful, your pregnancy will be aborted.
3. There is, apparently, nothing wrong with abortion, according to the Bible.

In other words: the Bible doesn't condemn abortions. It supports them. And not all of your hand-waving and special pleading can change that.

 

[dad]

I'm afraid, dad, that this is just a lot of hand-waving to avoid the crucial issue. I'm not interested in discussing God's role as judge, or your curious ideas about "child sacrifice". My point, which you tried and failed to address, is that the Bible does not condemn abortion. All you're doing is picking fights with strawmen because you know you can't win the real fight.

Overruled. Jesus love all the children. God clobbered the child sacrificers and will do so again. God said do not kill. God said children are from Him, and has commanded that we teach them right. God is love. It was His love for mankind that was the reason He made a plan of salvation for us. That lan involved setting up a nation to work through and send the Scripture to. For you to disrespect and ignore the rest of the bible in order to try and make Him look unloving and unjust for teaching right and wrong to the people He chose is a cheap and losing strategy. Your shortsightedness in seeing the love and mercy and wisdom of God in dealing with a situation in ancient times is your problem. Here are just some verses that should make this crystal clear.


Leviticus 18:21 ESV
You shall not give any of your children to offer them to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the Lord.

Deuteronomy 12:31 ESV / 80 helpful votes
You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.

Ezekiel 16:20-21 ESV / 68 helpful votes
And you took your sons and your daughters, whom you had borne to me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your whorings so small a matter that you slaughtered my children and delivered them up as an offering by fire to them?

Leviticus 20:1-5 ESV / 67 helpful votes
The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones. I myself will set my face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given one of his children to Molech, to make my sanctuary unclean and to profane my holy name. And if the people of the land do at all close their eyes to that man when he gives one of his children to Molech, and do not put him to death, then I will set my face against that man and against his clan and will cut them off from among their people, him and all who follow him in whoring after Molech.

Psalm 106:37-38 ESV / 52 helpful votes
They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to the demons; they poured out innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was polluted with blood.

2 Kings 21:2-6 ESV / 45 helpful votes
And he did what was evil in the sight of the Lord, according to the despicable practices of the nations whom the Lord drove out before the people of Israel. For he rebuilt the high places that Hezekiah his father had destroyed, and he erected altars for Baal and made an Asherah, as Ahab king of Israel had done, and worshiped all the host of heaven and served them. And he built altars in the house of the Lord, of which the Lord had said, “In Jerusalem will I put my name.” And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the Lord. And he burned his son as an offering and used fortune-telling and omens and dealt with mediums and with necromancers. He did much evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger.

2 Kings 17:17-18 ESV / 45 helpful votes
And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings and used divination and omens and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger. Therefore the Lord was very angry with Israel and removed them out of his sight. None was left but the tribe of Judah only.

Jeremiah 7:30-34 ESV / 39 helpful votes
“For the sons of Judah have done evil in my sight, declares the Lord. They have set their detestable things in the house that is called by my name, to defile it. And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere. And the dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the air, and for the beasts of the earth, and none will frighten them away. And I will silence in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, for the land shall become a waste.

Jeremiah 7:31 ESV / 31 helpful votes
And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.

Psalm 139:13-16 ESV / 29 helpful votes
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Psalm 127:3 ESV / 27 helpful votes
Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward.

Ezekiel 20:31 ESV / 25 helpful votes
When you present your gifts and offer up your children in fire, you defile yourselves with all your idols to this day. And shall I be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, declares the Lord God, I will not be inquired of by you.

Deuteronomy 18:10 ESV / 24 helpful votes
There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer

2 Kings 3:27 ESV / 20 helpful votes
Then he took his oldest son who was to reign in his place and offered him for a burnt offering on the wall. And there came great wrath against Israel. And they withdrew from him and returned to their own land.

Amos 1:13 ESV / 18 helpful votes
Thus says the Lord: “For three transgressions of the Ammonites, and for four, I will not revoke the punishment, because they have ripped open pregnant women in Gilead, that they might enlarge their border.

Jeremiah 1:5 ESV / 17 helpful votes
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Psalm 127:3-5 ESV / 15 helpful votes
Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one's youth. Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them! He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.

Leviticus 20:2 ESV / 15 helpful votes
“Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Jeremiah 22:17 ESV / 13 helpful votes
But you have eyes and heart only for your dishonest gain, for shedding innocent blood, and for practicing oppression and violence.”

Luke 1:41 ESV / 11 helpful votes
And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit,

Jeremiah 32:35 ESV / 10 helpful votes
They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Jeremiah 19:5 ESV / 10 helpful votes
And have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—


Psalm 139:13 ESV / 9 helpful votes
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb.

2 Kings 23:10 ESV / 9 helpful votes
And he defiled Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, that no one might burn his son or his daughter as an offering to Molech.

Isaiah 57:3-5 ESV / 8 helpful votes
But you, draw near, sons of the sorceress, offspring of the adulterer and the loose woman. Whom are you mocking? Against whom do you open your mouth wide and stick out your tongue? Are you not children of transgression, the offspring of deceit, you who burn with lust among the oaks, under every green tree, who slaughter your children in the valleys, under the clefts of the rocks?

Isaiah 1:15 ESV / 8 helpful votes
When you spread out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.

Exodus 20:13 ESV / 8 helpful votes
“You shall not murder.


Luke 18:15-17 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them. And when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”

Matthew 19:13-15 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people, but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.” And he laid his hands on them and went away.

Isaiah 1:13-17 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations— I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood. Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause.

2 Kings 16:3 ESV / 7 helpful votes
But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel. He even burned his son as an offering, according to the despicable practices of the nations whom the Lord drove out before the people of Israel.

Leviticus 20:2-5 ESV / 7 helpful votes
“Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones. I myself will set my face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given one of his children to Molech, to make my sanctuary unclean and to profane my holy name. And if the people of the land do at all close their eyes to that man when he gives one of his children to Molech, and do not put him to death, then I will set my face against that man and against his clan and will cut them off from among their people, him and all who follow him in whoring after Molech.



John 15:17 ESV / 6 helpful votes
These things I command you, so that you will love one another.

Psalm 139:16 ESV / 6 helpful votes
Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Psalm 128:3-4 ESV / 6 helpful votes
Your wife will be like a fruitful vine within your house; your children will be like olive shoots around your table. Behold, thus shall the man be blessed who fears the Lord.

What Does the Bible Say About Child Sacrifice?

One more time:
"27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result:

Correct. If a citizen of the nation He was setting up in that time committed a grievous sin, there would be a penalty. By the same token, the test that was set up would show if she was innocent. Nothing to do with God wanting to kill babies. It had to do with weeding out sin, and not giving the blessing to a wicked woman.

3. There is, apparently, nothing wrong with abortion, according to the Bible.

Wrong. Abortion and child sacrifice are people taking lives that God gave. When God acted in this case it was God transporting the child to a better situation AND teaching His nation a lesson as well!
Nothing to do with abortion.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

For you to disrespect and ignore the rest of the bible in order to try and make Him look unloving and unjust for teaching right and wrong to the people He chose is a cheap and losing strategy. Your shortsightedness in seeing the love and mercy and wisdom of God in dealing with a situation in ancient times is your problem.

Actually, I don't have a problem. My feelings at the moment are neither of hatred for the Christian god, nor of desperation for my unsaved soul. In fact, the main feeling I have right now is interest. Hence the name.

Ah, I see you've taken me up on my challenge. Well done! I said the Bible does not condemn abortion, and you're going to try to prove me wrong. Let's see how you do.

Leviticus 18:21 ESV
You shall not give any of your children to offer them to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the Lord.

Nothing at all to do with abortion. I'm going to copy that last sentence, as it will make things easier for me. Score so far: 0/1

Deuteronomy 12:31 ESV / 80 helpful votes
You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.

Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/2

Ezekiel 16:20-21 ESV / 68 helpful votes
And you took your sons and your daughters, whom you had borne to me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your whorings so small a matter that you slaughtered my children and delivered them up as an offering by fire to them?

Nothing at all to do with abortion (note the telltale clue "who you had borne so far"). Score so far: 0/3

Leviticus 20:1-5 ESV / 67 helpful votes
The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death.

Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/4

Psalm 106:37-38 ESV / 52 helpful votes
They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to the demons;

Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/5

2 Kings 21:2-6 ESV / 45 helpful votes
And he did what was evil in the sight of the Lord...And he burned his son as an offering...

Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/5

2 Kings 17:17-18 ESV / 45 helpful votes
And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings and used divination and omens and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger.

Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/6

Jeremiah 7:30-34 ESV / 39 helpful votes
“For the sons of Judah have done evil in my sight, declares the Lord. They... burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.

Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/7

Jeremiah 7:31 ESV / 31 helpful votes
And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.

Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/8

Psalm 139:13-16 ESV / 29 helpful votes
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

At last! Something to do with a fetus! But still, nothing to do with abortion. All this means is that God observes a fetus as it is formed inside the mother.
In other words, nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/0

Psalm 127:3 ESV / 27 helpful votes
Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward.

Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/10

Ezekiel 20:31 ESV / 25 helpful votes
When you present your gifts and offer up your children in fire, you defile yourselves with all your idols to this day. And shall I be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, declares the Lord God, I will not be inquired of by you.

Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/11

Deuteronomy 18:10 ESV / 24 helpful votes
There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer

Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/12

2 Kings 3:27 ESV / 20 helpful votes
Then he took his oldest son who was to reign in his place and offered him for a burnt offering on the wall. And there came great wrath against Israel. And they withdrew from him and returned to their own land.

REALLY nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/13

Amos 1:13 ESV / 18 helpful votes
Thus says the Lord: “For three transgressions of the Ammonites, and for four, I will not revoke the punishment, because they have ripped open pregnant women in Gilead, that they might enlarge their border.

Murdering pregnant mothers has nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/14

Jeremiah 1:5 ESV / 17 helpful votes
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

This one is slightly more on topic. But in fact, all it means is that the Lord had plans for the Prochet Jeremiah even before he was born. So what? He's God, he knows everything. Also, this is trying to prove too much - it says that God had plans for this specific person even before he was conceived!
In other words, nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/15

Psalm 127:3-5 ESV / 15 helpful votes
Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one's youth. Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them! He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.

Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/16

Leviticus 20:2 ESV / 15 helpful votes
“Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/17

Jeremiah 22:17 ESV / 13 helpful votes
But you have eyes and heart only for your dishonest gain, for shedding innocent blood, and for practicing oppression and violence.”

Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/18

Luke 1:41 ESV / 11 helpful votes
And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit,

Okay, good for her. Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/19

Jeremiah 32:35 ESV / 10 helpful votes
They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/20

Jeremiah 19:5 ESV / 10 helpful votes
And have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—

Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/21

Psalm 139:13 ESV / 9 helpful votes
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb.

Didn't we hear this one already?

2 Kings 23:10 ESV / 9 helpful votes
And he defiled Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, that no one might burn his son or his daughter as an offering to Molech.

Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/22 (not counting that last one)

Isaiah 57:3-5 ESV / 8 helpful votes
But you, draw near, sons of the sorceress, offspring of the adulterer and the loose woman. Whom are you mocking? Against whom do you open your mouth wide and stick out your tongue? Are you not children of transgression, the offspring of deceit, you who burn with lust among the oaks, under every green tree, who slaughter your children in the valleys, under the clefts of the rocks?

Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/23

Isaiah 1:15 ESV / 8 helpful votes
When you spread out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.

Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/24

Exodus 20:13 ESV / 8 helpful votes
“You shall not murder.

Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/25

Luke 18:15-17 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them. And when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”

REALLY nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/26

Matthew 19:13-15 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people, but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.” And he laid his hands on them and went away.

REALLY nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/27

Isaiah 1:13-17 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Bring no more vain offerings...

This whole passage has not just nothing to do with abortion, but not even anything to do with children. Score so far: 0/28

2 Kings 16:3 ESV / 7 helpful votes
But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel. He even burned his son as an offering, according to the despicable practices of the nations whom the Lord drove out before the people of Israel.

Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/29

Leviticus 20:2-5 ESV / 7 helpful votes
“Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones. I myself will set my face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given one of his children to Molech, to make my sanctuary unclean and to profane my holy name. And if the people of the land do at all close their eyes to that man when he gives one of his children to Molech, and do not put him to death, then I will set my face against that man and against his clan and will cut them off from among their people, him and all who follow him in whoring after Molech.

Nothing at all to do with abortion, but it does show what an unpleasant chaactr the God of the Bible is. Score so far: 0/30

John 15:17 ESV / 6 helpful votes
These things I command you, so that you will love one another.

Uh? Unless Jesus preceded that with "and remember, it is wrong to kill unborn children", then nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/31

Psalm 139:16 ESV / 6 helpful votes
Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

See above.

Psalm 128:3-4 ESV / 6 helpful votes
Your wife will be like a fruitful vine within your house; your children will be like olive shoots around your table. Behold, thus shall the man be blessed who fears the Lord.

Nothing at all to do with abortion. Total score: 0/32

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Now, I've taken some time to answer those. I could just have pointed out that none of them supported your case at all, but I wanted to make a point. It would have been easy, really easy, for the Bible to condemn abortion. It was widely known and practised at the time; the people who wrote the Bible certainly knew that there were herbs you could take to ensure that a pregnant woman miscarried. But they didn't say anything about it. Why not? Because, obviously, it didn't bother them, which is supported by Numbers 5, in which it is shown how an abortion can be carried out as part of a religious ceremony.

Correct. If a citizen of the nation He was setting up in that time committed a grievous sin, there would be a penalty. By the same token, the test that was set up would show if she was innocent. Nothing to do with God wanting to kill babies. It had to do with weeding out sin, and not giving the blessing to a wicked woman.

Yeah, well. As you and I both know, the result of this (according to the Bible, at least) is that a fetus would be killed, no matter what the intentions of all involved.

Wrong. Abortion and child sacrifice are people taking lives that God gave. When God acted in this case it was God transporting the child to a better situation AND teaching His nation a lesson as well!
Nothing to do with abortion.

Except that an unborn child was terminated. Which pretty much fits the definition of abortion.

 

[dad]

Actually, I don't have a problem. My feelings at the moment are neither of hatred for the Christian god, nor of desperation for my unsaved soul. In fact, the main feeling I have right now is interest. Hence the name.

Ah, I see you've taken me up on my challenge. Well done! I said the Bible does not condemn abortion, and you're going to try to prove me wrong. Let's see how you do.


Nothing at all to do with abortion. I'm going to copy that last sentence, as it will make things easier for me. Score so far: 0/1


Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/2


Nothing at all to do with abortion (note the telltale clue "who you had borne so far"). Score so far: 0/3


Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/4


Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/5


Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/5


Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/6


Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/7


Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/8


At last! Something to do with a fetus! But still, nothing to do with abortion. All this means is that God observes a fetus as it is formed inside the mother.
In other words, nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/0


Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/10


Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/11


Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/12


REALLY nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/13


Murdering pregnant mothers has nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/14


This one is slightly more on topic. But in fact, all it means is that the Lord had plans for the Prochet Jeremiah even before he was born. So what? He's God, he knows everything. Also, this is trying to prove too much - it says that God had plans for this specific person even before he was conceived!
In other words, nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/15


Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/16


Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/17


Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/18


Okay, good for her. Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/19


Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/20


Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/21


Didn't we hear this one already?


Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/22 (not counting that last one)


Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/23


Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/24


Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/25


REALLY nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/26


REALLY nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/27


This whole passage has not just nothing to do with abortion, but not even anything to do with children. Score so far: 0/28


Nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/29


Nothing at all to do with abortion, but it does show what an unpleasant chaactr the God of the Bible is. Score so far: 0/30


Uh? Unless Jesus preceded that with "and remember, it is wrong to kill unborn children", then nothing at all to do with abortion. Score so far: 0/31


See above.


Nothing at all to do with abortion. Total score: 0/32

The verses show God both loves children and forbids killing them. I also showed how abortion is man made and not related to drinking water thousands of years ago as some ritual for Israel. We would not expect you to comprehend the depths and reasons why God did things then. That would require knowing Him. Jesus came so we could know Him, and we all know how He treated kids.

Your attempt to distance the slaying of babies from ritualistic child sacrifice was already overthrown by the OP. Child sacrifice or human sacrifice are better names for the practice today anyhow, as people have been desensitized to the systematic sacrifice of young human life as conceived by the word abortion. The bile and verses I posted make it clear God has nothing to do with that whatsoever and despises it and promised retribution for partaking in it.

 

[dad]

Now, I've taken some time to answer those. I could just have pointed out that none of them supported your case at all, but I wanted to make a point. It would have been easy, really easy, for the Bible to condemn abortion. It was widely known and practised at the time; the people who wrote the Bible certainly knew that there were herbs you could take to ensure that a pregnant woman miscarried. But they didn't say anything about it. Why not? Because, obviously, it didn't bother them, which is supported by Numbers 5, in which it is shown how an abortion can be carried out as part of a religious ceremony.

God wrote the bible, God made herbs. The people He used in the writing may have been aware of various misuses of good things, that doesn't mean they agreed in any way. God withholding a blessing in ancient Israel to a woman who had tested positive for destructive sin was a measured punishment from a Judge. He did not take her life, but only the blessing she could have had of a child. He did not want His people living in adultery like that. He wanted people of His nation to grow up in a better environment. He probably also wanted the child to do the same! He never asked anyone to harm the mother or child. God Himself acted to ensure the child was protected from the evil mom! That is FAR different from a mom trying to selfishly protect herself from a child God sends by having it hacked or burned or otherwise assassinated! Modern child sacrifices are paid assassinations! You are trying to say God had no right to a plan of salvation for mankind. You are trying to accuse the Almighty of being evil.

Yeah, well. As you and I both know, the result of this (according to the Bible, at least) is that a fetus would be killed, no matter what the intentions of all involved.

No. I don't know even the timing of how long after the adultery the woman was busted and got to take the water test! Does it say? If she was say, 9 months pregnant, do you think a water test would be done?? I don't know either. But I do know Jesus from Scripture, and so I see it as a mercy induced Natural miscarriage resulting in the child being born in Paradise instead of a vile mother that was a disgrace to the nation and principles He was setting up for the salvation of mankind!!!

Except that an unborn child was terminated. Which pretty much fits the definition of abortion.

The child was carried to heaven and spared a lot of suffering and was also part of a demonstration of justice to ancient Israel. That is nothing like vile wicked murdering selfish demon influenced man assassinating a child in a ritualistic, mass murdering crazed free for all that leaves tens of millions of young humans dead every year.

 

[SPF]

Arguments from silence aren't valid, so the fact that Scripture doesn't have a specific verse condemning abortion does not therefore mean that it condones it.

This is why when Scripture does not specifically address a moral issue, we look at the principles it lays out, and then we can come to an understanding about what actions is moral or immoral.

Biblically the case against abortion is simple. All humans are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value. Scientifically we know that a new and unique human being comes into existence at fertilization. With these two facts alone, it isn't hard to see why Christians think that at the very least 98.5% of abortions are immoral.

We can also look back at the Early Church Fathers and very clearly see that abortion has been considered immoral for a very long time.

The Didache was written in the 1st century, and it says: The second commandment of the Teaching: "Do not murder; do not commit adultery"; do not corrupt boys; do not fornicate; "do not steal"; do not practice magic; do not go in for sorcery; do not murder a child by abortion or kill a newborn infant...

Athenagoras around AD 177 said, "And when we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion commit murder, and will have to give an account to God for the abortion, on what principle should we commit murder? For it does not belong to the same person to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God's care, and when it has passed into life, to kill it; and not to expose an infant, because those who expose them are chargeable with child-murder, and on the other hand, when it has been reared to destroy it. (A Plea for the Christians, 35:6.)

Tertullian around AD 197 said, "For us murder is once for all forbidden; so even the child in the womb, while yet the mother's blood is still being drawn on to form the human being, it is not lawful for us to destroy. To forbid birth is only quicker murder. It makes no difference whether one take away the life once born or destroy it as it comes to birth. He is a man who is to be a man; the fruit is always present in the seed. (Apology, 9:8.)

InterestedAtheist, the bottom line is that Scripture does not support nor endorse abortion. The best you've been able to do is argue from 1 and only 1 passage of Scripture that it does support it. The passage you are attempting to you, you are taking out of context, which is why no Christian is taking you seriously.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

The verses show God both loves children and forbids killing them. I also showed how abortion is man made and not related to drinking water thousands of years ago as some ritual for Israel. We would not expect you to comprehend the depths and reasons why God did things then. That would require knowing Him. Jesus came so we could know Him, and we all know how He treated kids.

You're all over the place here, dad. Let's focus on the one relevant thing: that Numbers 5 describes a ceremony which will result in a fetus being killed; that is to say, an abortion.

God wrote the bible, God made herbs. The people He used in the writing may have been aware of various misuses of good things, that doesn't mean they agreed in any way.

Assuming we take Numbers 5 in any way seriously (which I don't, of course) then it's meaning is plainly obvious:
If a woman has been unfaithful, then subject her to this test and she will be punished by the death of her unborn child.
That's all there is to it.

You are trying to say God had no right to a plan of salvation for mankind. You are trying to accuse the Almighty of being evil.

All I'm doing is quoting the text. If you feel it reflects badly upon Yahweh, then that's your problem, not mine.

He wanted people of His nation to grow up in a better environment. He probably also wanted the child to do the same!
...
He never asked anyone to harm the mother or child. God Himself acted to ensure the child was protected from the evil mom!
...
No. I don't know even the timing of how long after the adultery the woman was busted and got to take the water test! Does it say? If she was say, 9 months pregnant, do you think a water test would be done?? I don't know either. But I do know Jesus from Scripture, and so I see it as a mercy induced Natural miscarriage resulting in the child being born in Paradise instead of a vile mother that was a disgrace to the nation and principles He was setting up for the salvation of mankind!!!
...

The child was carried to heaven and spared a lot of suffering and was also part of a demonstration of justice to ancient Israel. That is nothing like vile wicked murdering selfish demon influenced man assassinating a child in a ritualistic, mass murdering crazed free for all that leaves tens of millions of young humans dead every year.

Fascinating, dad. You have here outlined a very good case for why abortions take place. It is to spare the child from growing up in a bad situation. The parents feel it would not be right to bring the child into the world. Apparently, though, you consider them to be evil for doing this, despite your making excuses for abortions when they happen in the Bible.

You're all over the place here, dad, and you're just thrashing around the more you try to reconcile the contradictions between your view that abortion is evil and the Bible's view that the fetus' life has no value.

 

[dad]

You're all over the place here, dad. Let's focus on the one relevant thing: that Numbers 5 describes a ceremony which will result in a fetus being killed; that is to say, an abortion.

Num 5 water test = God doing stuff

Abortion = man kills.

Assuming we take Numbers 5 in any way seriously (which I don't, of course) then it's meaning is plainly obvious:
If a woman has been unfaithful, then subject her to this test and she will be punished by the death of her unborn child.
That's all there is to it.

Not really. Death is separation from God. The blessing child that the woman missed out on was not separated from God. Just from evil mom.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Num 5 water test = God doing stuff
Abortion = man kills.

Uh huh. But here's the problem (as I pointed out earlier). This is NOT a story about "God doing stuff". It's a description of what the jealous husband is supposed to do.
It's not a story about how, "Hey, one day there was this sinful little hussy - boy, did God sort her out!"
It's an instruction to a man, saying "If you think that your pregnant wife has been cuckolding you, then go to the priest, and he'll do a magic spell, and her fetus will be aborted, shaming her. Remember, this is what you can do if you are jealous of your wife. Would you like to?"
Therefore, the responsibility is on the man who decides to do this, knowing what will happen if he does.

Here are two questions to help you see this point:
1. If there was some magic medicine today that did the same thing, what would you recommend? If a husband suspected that his pregnant wife's baby was not his, and if there was a special (hypothetical) pill she could take that would cause her to miscarry IF the baby was not his, should he give it to her?
2. If you were back in time, and you saw this ceremony about to take place, would you be horrified at the thought that an innocent little baby was about to be killed?

The real answer, of course, is that you think abortion is evil, and that if there is a story in the Bible that contradicts you, well then, that story doesn't really count.