Child sacrifice in America dealt with by heaven

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Arguments from silence aren't valid, so the fact that Scripture doesn't have a specific verse condemning abortion does not therefore mean that it condones it.

This is why when Scripture does not specifically address a moral issue, we look at the principles it lays out, and then we can come to an understanding about what actions is moral or immoral.

Good. So, we've agreed on my starting premise, that the Bible does not condemn abortions. Thank you.

Biblically the case against abortion is simple...

Let me stop you there for a moment. First, simple doesn't necessarily mean correct. Second, if the biblical case against abortion is so simple, why did it take until the 1970s for non-Catholic Christians to recognise it, and why are there still a large number of Christians - Catholic and non-Catholic who disagree with you on this?

The answer is, of course, that (a) abortion is not the same thing as murder, which was the standard evangelical Christian response within living memory; (b) this changed because evangelicals recognised it as a useful political tool to whip up support with; and (c) there are large numbers of non-Catholic Christians who refuse to buy in to this political movement, and large numbers of Catholic Christians who realise that the Catholic Church is quite simply wrong on this issue.

All humans are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value. Scientifically we know that a new and unique human being comes into existence at fertilization. With these two facts alone, it isn't hard to see why Christians think that at the very least 98.5% of abortions are immoral.

Well, of course we now know that many Christians disagree with you. As for your arguments, human DNA is not the same thing as personhood. I'll be happy to get into this with you if you wish.

We can also look back at the Early Church Fathers and very clearly see that abortion has been considered immoral for a very long time.

But not, sadly, in the Bible. And it is in the Bible that we have a very clear example showing that a fetus is not counted as important.

InterestedAtheist, the bottom line is that Scripture does not support nor endorse abortion. The best you've been able to do is argue from 1 and only 1 passage of Scripture that it does support it. The passage you are attempting to you, you are taking out of context, which is why no Christian is taking you seriously.

Out of context? In what way? It's strange that you should wait until now to mention this. As far as I can see, we have an open-and-shut case; a story from the Bible which approves of fetuses being aborted.
And by the way, when Christians take atheists seriously enough to argue against them, they tend to lose; the reason being that the facts are not on their side.
 
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dad

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Uh huh. But here's the problem (as I pointed out earlier). This is NOT a story about "God doing stuff". It's a description of what the jealous husband is supposed to do.


Drinking water hurts no one. The only issue was whether there was 'sin in the camp' in which case God used the water to stop the woman from getting a blessing. If not, that SAME water had NO ill effect all all. It was not water that killed anyone. That was a symbol and illustration used by God.


It's not a story about how, "Hey, one day there was this sinful little hussy - boy, did God sort her out!"
It's an instruction to a man, saying "If you think that your pregnant wife has been cuckolding you, then go to the priest, and he'll do a magic spell, and her fetus will be aborted, shaming her. Remember, this is what you can do if you are jealous of your wife. Would you like to?"
Therefore, the responsibility is on the man who decides to do this, knowing what will happen if he does.

The priest represented God. The test was allowed because no one needed to put up with adultery in that time and nation. The man had every right to know if some con was being played on him.
Here are two questions to help you see this point:
1. If there was some magic medicine today that did the same thing, what would you recommend?
There was no magic in the water, because the very same water drunk by an innocent woman had no effect! The judgment was from God.

If a husband suspected that his pregnant wife's baby was not his, and if there was a special (hypothetical) pill she could take that would cause her to miscarry IF the baby was not his, should he give it to her?
Now you are trying to mix the modern ages and a society that is not God's with a situation specifically for His nation at a particular time.

2. If you were back in time, and you saw this ceremony about to take place, would you be horrified at the thought that an innocent little baby was about to be killed?
Actually I am looking forward to God judging the people and nations for child sacrifice. If I was time traveling to ancient Israel, why would I be horrified that God was alive and moving and active!? Are we more righteous than God?? Should I say to the man with the adulteress for a wife, 'gee, I am so sorry you had to find out'?
The real answer, of course, is that you think abortion is evil, and that if there is a story in the Bible that contradicts you, well then, that story doesn't really count.

Abortion is man murdering man. Num 5 is about a living God moving forward with a plan of salvation and teaching right from wrong to one nation. God delivered both the baby and the poor dumb husband from a wicked woman. That might not be very 'Clintonesque' but I thin it was cool and right.

There is no end to the wickedness of man, it grows and grows. Here is an article published in the journal of medical 'ethics'


" The article, entitled “After-birth abortion: Why should the baby live?”, was written by two of Prof Savulescu’s former associates, Alberto Giubilini and Francesca Minerva.

They argued: “The moral status of an infant is equivalent to that of a fetus in the sense that both lack those properties that justify the attribution of a right to life to an individual.”

Rather than being “actual persons”, newborns were “potential persons”. They explained: “Both a fetus and a newborn certainly are human beings and potential persons, but neither is a ‘person’ in the sense of ‘subject of a moral right to life’. "
Killing babies no different from abortion, experts say

Looks like the millions of remains of sacrificed babies might be joined by millions of remains of children of other ages one day.
 
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Drinking water hurts no one. The only issue was whether there was 'sin in the camp' in which case God used the water to stop the woman from getting a blessing. If not, that SAME water had NO ill effect all all. It was not water that killed anyone. That was a symbol and illustration used by God.
Did the man and the priest know what would happen in advance? Obviously they did, as Numbers 5 told them. Therefore, they knew that the outcome of the ritual might be an abortion; therefore, the responsibility of the abortion is on them.

The priest represented God. The test was allowed because no one needed to put up with adultery in that time and nation. The man had every right to know if some con was being played on him.
And he had every right to kill a fetus? I thought you disapproved of that.

Now you are trying to mix the modern ages and a society that is not God's with a situation specifically for His nation at a particular time.
Got it. Abortions, wrong now, right then.

Actually I am looking forward to God judging the people and nations for child sacrifice. If I was time traveling to ancient Israel, why would I be horrified that God was alive and moving and active!? Are we more righteous than God?? Should I say to the man with the adulteress for a wife, 'gee, I am so sorry you had to find out'?
No, you should say, "Oh no, a poor, innocent unborn child has been killed!" Because that's exactly what the Bible says will happen.

Abortion is man murdering man. Num 5 is about a living God moving forward with a plan of salvation and teaching right from wrong to one nation. God delivered both the baby and the poor dumb husband from a wicked woman. That might not be very 'Clintonesque' but I think it was cool and right.
Got it. Abortion, wrong when done today. Right when done as part of a religious ritual in the Bible. Thank you for exposing your double standards.

There is no end to the wickedness of man, it grows and grows. Here is an article published in the journal of medical 'ethics'
All very interesting, I'm sure, but let's stick to the topic on hand. Which is, there's nothing wrong with abortion, because the bible endorses it.
 
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So, this is how it stands:

1. Abortion is apparently a bad thing; even an evil thing. It's "child sacrifice" or "the end of a precious individual human life".
2. In the Bible, however, it clearly shows that you can choose for an abortion to take place, if you are a man who thinks your wife is unfaithful, by putting her on trial, in which an abortion will happen if she is guilty.
3. SPF says that Numbers 5 doesn't matter, because it is just one isolated excerpt. This is, of course, irrelevant. The point is, it is a story which shows the fetus' life has no value.
3. dad says that this is alright, because God is allowed to do whatever he likes. This, of course, avoids the true issue, which is that a fetus' life has been snuffed out at the instruction of its mother's husband. If you argue that this is permissible, then you agree with the Bible that a fetus' life has no value.

Guys, you've both painted yourselves into a corner. Now I understand why you don't like it, but the conclusion is inescapable: abortions are okay. We know, from the Bible.
 
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dad

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Did the man and the priest know what would happen in advance? Obviously they did, as Numbers 5 told them. Therefore, they knew that the outcome of the ritual might be an abortion; therefore, the responsibility of the abortion is on them.
The people of Israel were a nation under God. In God they trusted. When God commanded stuff, of course His people knew.
And he had every right to kill a fetus? I thought you disapproved of that.
God is above my law. Besides I explained a few times death is separation from God. When a child is transported to heaven to good parents, that is anything but separated from God!

Got it. Abortions, wrong now, right then.
Denying an adulteress the blessing from God of a child as punishment was not abortion.

No, you should say, "Oh no, a poor, innocent unborn child has been killed!" Because that's exactly what the Bible says will happen.
No. The bible says a child of even one believing parent is saved! It also says we will never die.

All very interesting, I'm sure, but let's stick to the topic on hand. Which is, there's nothing wrong with abortion, because the bible endorses it.

Abortion is child sacrifice by man. The bad lady that drank the water (if there were any, maybe all cases were cleared and it was just a warning !!!!!) would have lost her opportunity to be a mom, at least that time round!

Interesting point can you name ONE instance of when a lady did lose out on motherhood after drinking the water!!!? No. Not one single solitary case possibly ever happened! Yet you accuse God blindly! Maybe God knew the warning would be enough! How wise. How just. How loving.

Now, I can name millions of times when modern people committed child sacrifice just in the last year!! Not as a warning either, but as a ghoulish ritualistic demonic deliberate act of murder.
 
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The thing is, you're just playing tennis against yourself, dad. By this, I mean that you're simultaneously arguing two opposite and contradictory points of view, at the same time. I think I'd better stop trying to play you. I'll just be umpire instead.

On the one hand, you're arguing that abortion is a bad thing, because it is "child sacrifice" and "murder". We'll call this point of view "dad 1".
On the other hand, you're arguing that abortion is a good thing, because the child is taken to God. Now you, of course, only mean the hypothetical fetus from Numbers 5, but I presume you also think that the poor "murder victims" of abortions today are also taken to heaven by God; in which case, there is no difference. We'll call this point of view "dad 2".

So, which is it? Is abortion good or bad?
Let's see! dad playing dad!

The people of Israel were a nation under God. In God they trusted. When God commanded stuff, of course His people knew.
Got it. So they knew that the fetus might end up aborted if they performed this ritual. Therefore, abortion is okay. One point for dad 2!

God is above my law. Besides I explained a few times death is separation from God. When a child is transported to heaven to good parents, that is anything but separated from God!
Got it. So any aborted soul goes straight to heaven. Two points for dad 2!

Denying an adulteress the blessing from God of a child as punishment was not abortion.
Because abortion is bad. Got it. One point for dad 1!

No. The bible says a child of even one believing parent is saved! It also says we will never die.
Got it. I think. Considering we all die anyway, and that the aborted fetus would certainly die. Still, we can presume that you mean the fetus' soul lived on in heaven. Three points for dad 2!

Abortion is child sacrifice by man. The bad lady that drank the water (if there were any, maybe all cases were cleared and it was just a warning !!!!!) would have lost her opportunity to be a mom, at least that time round!
And would have lost her fetus. Which had just been aborted. Because abortion is a bad thing. Two points for dad 1!

Now, I can name millions of times when modern people committed child sacrifice just in the last year!! Not as a warning either, but as a ghoulish ritualistic demonic deliberate act of murder.
I'll take this appalling mischaracterisation of medical abortions as a point for dad 1, bringing his total for three. And the game ends in a draw!

If you like, we can stop at this point. I'm afraid you have no idea what you're talking about, beyond "abortion = evil / God = right!" so it's probably not fair of me to keep you talking any more. Goodbye, dad. See you next time.
 
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dad

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The thing is, you're just playing tennis against yourself, dad. By this, I mean that you're simultaneously arguing two opposite and contradictory points of view, at the same time. I think I'd better stop trying to play you. I'll just be umpire instead.

On the one hand, you're arguing that abortion is a bad thing, because it is "child sacrifice" and "murder". We'll call this point of view "dad 1".
Correct, God hates it.
On the other hand, you're arguing that abortion is a good thing, because the child is taken to God.

No. God uses bad things and gets some good from them. Child sacrifice is a very very bad thing. It is something that will trigger a reaction form the Almighty.

Now you, of course, only mean the hypothetical fetus from Numbers 5, but I presume you also think that the poor "murder victims" of abortions today are also taken to heaven by God; in which case, there is no difference. We'll call this point of view "dad 2".
Having looked at the chapter you cited, I formed an opinion about what went down. That is that no child ever even had to be relocated to better parents in heaven due to that water test in Num 5, and that the warning was enough.

So, unless you can prove that even one mom actually drank the water and got punished I assume no one ever did!
So, which is it? Is abortion good or bad?
Let's see! dad playing dad!
God warning His people was a great thing. Man conducting mass murders is a very bad thing.

Got it. So they knew that the fetus might end up aborted if they performed this ritual. Therefore, abortion is okay. One point for dad 2!

They knew that God would not be happy, and that they would lose a blessing. No one was being killed. In fact, as I said, I now assume that not one child even had to be relocated to heaven.
Got it. I think. Considering we all die anyway, and that the aborted fetus would certainly die. Still, we can presume that you mean the fetus' soul lived on in heaven.
The mortality of man is no excuse for unquenchable yearning lust to kill, of those who sacrifice millions of children every year.
...
I'll take this appalling mischaracterisation of medical abortions as a point for dad 1, bringing his total for three. .
The proper characterization of human sacrifice and mass murder of children is child sacrifice. Abortion is just some watered down, justify the wicked word that I now replace with the more proper term, child sacrifices.
 
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SPF

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Good. So, we've agreed on my starting premise, that the Bible does not condemn abortions. Thank you.
I agree there is not an explicitly verse that states abortion is immoral. There are also dozens of other contemporary moral issues that the Bible does not directly address, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t important or that Christians cannot derive an appropriate understanding of their morality by drawing upon Biblical principles.

As for your arguments, human DNA is not the same thing as personhood. I'll be happy to get into this with you if you wish.
Personhood is a made up and entirely subjective and arbitrary term used by people for the sole purpose of justifying and action against a “non-person” that would otherwise be considered immoral.

But not, sadly, in the Bible. And it is in the Bible that we have a very clear example showing that a fetus is not counted as important.
We have anything but a clear example showing what you claim. The fact that you are incapable of showing a single other passage demonstrates this. The fact that you can’t present a single Biblical commentary that supports you demonstrates this. The bottom line is that you have to take this passage out of context, (which I’ve already demonstrated how so I’m not doing it again), to prove your point.

And by the way, when Christians take atheists seriously enough to argue against them, they tend to lose; the reason being that the facts are not on their side.
Really? Because I’ve yet to see William Lane Craig ever lose a debate against an atheist.
 
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SPF

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Good. So, we've agreed on my starting premise, that the Bible does not condemn abortions. Thank you.
I agree there is not an explicitly verse that states abortion is immoral. There are also dozens of other contemporary moral issues that the Bible does not directly address, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t important or that Christians cannot derive an appropriate understanding of their morality by drawing upon Biblical principles.

As for your arguments, human DNA is not the same thing as personhood. I'll be happy to get into this with you if you wish.
Personhood is a made up and entirely subjective and arbitrary term used by people for the sole purpose of justifying and action against a “non-person” that would otherwise be considered immoral.

But not, sadly, in the Bible. And it is in the Bible that we have a very clear example showing that a fetus is not counted as important.
We have anything but a clear example showing what you claim. The fact that you are incapable of showing a single other passage demonstrates this. The fact that you can’t present a single Biblical commentary that supports you demonstrates this. The bottom line is that you have to take this passage out of context, (which I’ve already demonstrated how so I’m not doing it again), to prove your point.

And by the way, when Christians take atheists seriously enough to argue against them, they tend to lose; the reason being that the facts are not on their side.
Really? Because I’ve yet to see William Lane Craig ever lose a debate against an atheist.
 
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Sketcher

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Numbers, Chapter 5. If a man is jealous of his pregnant wife, or thinks that she has been unfaithful to him, she is to be tested; and if she fails to pass the test, the fetus will be aborted:
Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 5 - New International Version
19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a cursed]">[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”
23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memoriale offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse.

This is very clear - if the woman has been unfaithful, the consequences of this ritual are that her fetus will be killed.

Now that it has been shown that God has no objection to killing an unborn child, could you please provide me with a passage from the Bible in which it says that you should never perform an abortion. Not "thou shalt not kill" (as Numbers 5 shows that God supports killing an unborn fetus), but a clear quote showing that an abortion itself - the act of aborting an unborn child deliberately - is wrong.
This is poor reasoning.

If the woman was guilty, her womb would wither. If she was innocent, she would be fine. This was given in the context of a covenant with God, hence God would be the one to activate the curse, and take the life of the unborn child. However, God, because he is God, reserved some things for him to do that he did not give people the right to do. Taking life is one of those things - God may take any life at any time for any reason, while man is limited to certain circumstances that God laid out. Our rights come from God, so only he may revoke the right to life. Using this example to justify abortion is no better than using 2 Kings 19:35-36 to justify biological warfare, it doesn't work.
 
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Theo Barnsley

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I have been thinking lately about how God might be working in America primarily due to the abortion issue there. Almost a feeling that God is fed up with a nation that has proclaimed faith in Him in many ways, that is plunging deeply into murdering children. I have the feeling that He is about to act.

I read an article linking ancient child sacrifice to abortions. Here is a quote from it

"...Tertullian, for example, commenting on the Roman practice of infanticide by comparing it to the Carthaginian practice of child sacrifice, admonishes:

there is no difference as to baby killing whether you do it as a sacred rite or just because you choose to do it.

In the same context Tertullian describes the Christian attitude towards both abortion and infanticide saying:

For us murder is once for all forbidden; so even the child in the womb, while yet the mother's blood is still being drawn on to form the human being, it is not lawful to destroy. To forbid birth is only quicker murder. It makes no difference whether one take away the life once born or destroy it as it comes to birth. He is a man, who is to be a man, the fruit is always present in the seed.[30]

The most obvious parallel between the rite of child sacrifice and the practice of abortion is the sober fact that the parents actually kill their own offspring. There are however many other parallels. At Carthage the main reason for sacrificing a child was to avert potential dangers in a crisis or to gain success through fulfilling a vow. Today many times when a woman faces an unwanted pregnancy, abortion seems to be the only way to resolve the crisis she finds herself in. The potential danger to reputation, education, career, etc., become overwhelming. To avert the seemingly terrifying consequences of carrying a pregnancy to term, the woman may turn to abortion as a means of escape. Another woman may experience much less of the anxiety and fear that accompany a crisis. She may simply see the pregnancy as an intrusion into her self-serving lifestyle and an obstacle in the way of the road to her success. Sadly this woman's offspring must be sacrificed so that she can continue uninterrupted with her plans for the future.[30b]"

Abortion and the Ancient Practice of Child Sacrifice

Here is my suggestion for America...and eventually, the world.

'Repent, or perish'

Literally.
.
Can you quote some biblical passages where god is against abortion?

As for child sacrifice, didnt God order Abraham to sacrifice his child? (i realise at the last minute he was stopped, however Abraham was still expected to be obedient to the command in the 1st place, & present his child for sacrifice).

Didnt god sacrifice his own child (jesus)?

At the very least, these facts makes god a very poor role model against child sacrifice!

I can find nowhere in the bible where god forbids abortion. Considering that god sent his own child for sacrifice, he also does not seem to be concerned about child sacrifice. Indeed, one of gods laws is that if you have a disobedient son, he is to be presented to the elders to be stoned to death. Disobedient children are also to be bashed against the rocks.

The ancient jews also did not consider an unborn child to be a person, so if it was killed no murder was considered to have been committed.

Fundamentalist Christians have chosen abortion rights as a battleground, because they lost the battle on gay rights & SSM. They think that this is one battle they can win. Most of the fundamentalists fighting for this dont care about either the unborn child or the mother. They care about winning the battle, & getting more politicians elected who will champion christian causes. It is all about gaining political power so they can wage war against secularists!
 
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Theo Barnsley

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Really? Because I’ve yet to see William Lane Craig ever lose a debate against an atheist.

We must be watching different debates, because I’ve yet to see William Lane Craig ever WIN a debate against an atheist.

Then again, whoever you believe is winning or losing probably comes from your own personal biases on the point being debated!

Frankly, I think that Craig tries to bamboozle people by lots of long wordy arguments, which sound impressive, but none of which makes any logical sense. People leave wondering what the hell he was talking about, but most believers will say "it sounded impressive, so he must be right".
 
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I agree there is not an explicitly verse that states abortion is immoral. There are also dozens of other contemporary moral issues that the Bible does not directly address, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t important or that Christians cannot derive an appropriate understanding of their morality by drawing upon Biblical principles.
...
We have anything but a clear example showing what you claim. The fact that you are incapable of showing a single other passage demonstrates this. The fact that you can’t present a single Biblical commentary that supports you demonstrates this. The bottom line is that you have to take this passage out of context, (which I’ve already demonstrated how so I’m not doing it again), to prove your point.

As our friend dad has pointed out, there are plenty of examples of the Bible saying that we should love the little children. But there are none at all saying that we should value fetuses. It is therefore perfectly reasonable to suppose that the Bible sees nothing wrong with abortion, particularly as we have this example which shows no concern whatsoever for the loss of (who knows how many?) unborn children who, as a result of Numbers 5, apparently perish. The onus is now on your to prove that the Bible does value fetuses. I'm afraid there's simply no way you can get around it: a woman being given a drink which will cause her to miscarry is abortion, by definition; that's all there is to say.

Personhood is a made up and entirely subjective and arbitrary term used by people for the sole purpose of justifying and action against a “non-person” that would otherwise be considered immoral.
If we're going to do this, then please, let's try to put aside feelings and follow the evidence and arguments. There's nothing wrong with saying, "You make some interesting points. I'll have to think it over." I promise not to gloat.
If you're a person, then "personhood" is merely the consideration of what makes you one. You may wish to check out this debate on whether abortion before a fetus has a functioning brain is wrong (if you're interested, this one was actually put to a vote at the end, and the pro-choice side won).
Debate Issue: Abortion Before a Fetus Has a Functioning Brain is Not Wrong | Debate.org
To paraphrase the opening argument:
1. Where does personhood reside? In the brain. If your brain is damaged, your personality is damaged. If your brain is destroyed, but your body continues working, then you are dead, even if your heart is still beating.
2. Therefore, the qualification for personhood is the capacity for thought (not the presence of thought, but the capacity; you don't cease to be a person if you fall asleep, or even if you are comatose, because the capacity for thought still exists).
3. To quote: "...if one considered a situation with two people (Jeff and Clara) and a transplant surgery that moved Jeff's brain to Clara's body, nobody seriously believes that Clara's body retains Clara's personality. Indeed, it is obvious that the situation would be that Jeff's personality has moved to Clara's body. In fact, it would be more accurate to refer to the entity that inhabits Clara's body as "Jeff" and to consider that person to BE Jeff, but simply in a different "container."
4. To quote again: Imagine "...a Frankenstein-like entity on a table, constructed from the material from dead people. Even if it was inevitable or highly likely that he would be brought to life (suppose there is an automated process that will bring him to life in 20 mins), it would be in no way wrong to stop this process from happening, or to even disassemble this entity back into its original components before it did."
5. After considering this, we can see that a fetus lacks a brain, and has never had a brain. It is, therefore, no more a person than a brain-dead body, or the hypothetical subject of a brain transplant, as it lacks the ability to think or to be aware. It is not a person, but a potential person. Aborting a fetus is no murder; no person yet exists to have been killed.

Interestingly enough, abortion was not considered immoral by non-Catholic Christians until recently. In 1979, for example, Christianity Today had this to say:
"God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed. The Law plainly exacts: “If a man kills any human life he will be put to death” (Lev. 24:17). But according to Exodus 21:22-24, the destruction of the fetus is not a capital offense. … Clearly, then, in contrast to the mother, the fetus is not reckoned as a soul."
And this was entirely typical of thought at the time, and perfectly sensible as well. You have said that abortion is obviously wrong, and that all Christians agree on this, but until recently you would have been very much on your own on this issue, and the only reason the spokespeople for Christianity changed their minds is for political advantage.

Really? Because I’ve yet to see William Lane Craig ever lose a debate against an atheist.
You have missed the Craig-Carroll debate, then. Craig was up against an actual professional cosmologist who knows what he's talking about, and was exposed as the amateur he is.
The simple fact is, for all Christian apologists love to say that there is "overwhelming evidence" for God and Jesus, it's only Christians who agree with them. Serious historians and cosmologists just ignore their books and speeches (which are never written up as peer-reviewed articles, of course). If apologists actually had real and compelling evidence for their arguments, they'd be winning Nobel prizes, rather than preaching sermons about Goldilocks and Kalam to reassure the flock.
 
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No. God uses bad things and gets some good from them. Child sacrifice is a very very bad thing. It is something that will trigger a reaction form the Almighty.
But the story tells us that God was willing to terminate fetuses. Whether this happened or not, this is a story about how terminating a fetus is the right thing to do.
You can't deny it. In the story, it tells you: "The woman will miscarry".

Having looked at the chapter you cited, I formed an opinion about what went down. That is that no child ever even had to be relocated to better parents in heaven due to that water test in Num 5, and that the warning was enough. So, unless you can prove that even one mom actually drank the water and got punished I assume no one ever did!
dad, perhaps you want to stop and think about that for a moment. Remember, I'm an atheist. I don't believe in God and miracles. So I too assume that no woman was ever punished (unless she did drink the water and caught sicknesses from its fouled contents).
I have to say, though, that this is a red herring. It doesn't matter whether this happened or not; most things in the Bible didn't. What matters is that the Bible endorses abortions. Which it does.
The Bible endorses abortions.
The Bible says it's okay to force a woman to take an abortifacient.
The Bible says a woman should drink a liquid that may cause her to miscarry.
It's there, in black and white.

The mortality of man is no excuse for unquenchable yearning lust to kill, of those who sacrifice millions of children every year.
Parents have abortions because they don't want to cause their children to suffer. I'm afraid you just don't understand the matter.

The proper characterization of human sacrifice and mass murder of children is child sacrifice. Abortion is just some watered down, justify the wicked word that I now replace with the more proper term, child sacrifices.
You've been lied to for too long, and now you believe the lies. This is very unfortunate. I will pray for you, in a secular sense.
 
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We must be watching different debates, because I’ve yet to see William Lane Craig ever WIN a debate against an atheist.

Then again, whoever you believe is winning or losing probably comes from your own personal biases on the point being debated!

Frankly, I think that Craig tries to bamboozle people by lots of long wordy arguments, which sound impressive, but none of which makes any logical sense. People leave wondering what the hell he was talking about, but most believers will say "it sounded impressive, so he must be right".
You’re probably referring to yourself here, not most Believers. WLC wins virtually every debate he engages in.

As our friend dad has pointed out, there are plenty of examples of the Bible saying that we should love the little children. But there are none at all saying that we should value fetuses. It is therefore perfectly reasonable to suppose that the Bible sees nothing wrong with abortion,
And once again, arguments from silence are invalid. Repeating them over and over won’t change that fact.

Finally, personhood is a made up, subjective and arbitrary term. Ask 10 different pro-abortion advocates and you’ll get 10 different arguments for when personhood begins.

There are only human beings, and they are either morally valuable or not.

I’m not surprised when non-Christians support abortion, I would if I was one. But as a Christian, I see inherent moral worth and value in all humans.

A new and unique human being comes into existence at fertilization and begins a roughly 25 year development period. I don’t descriminate against a human and say they aren’t morally valuable until they are X old or X developed, or reside at X location.

Humans are either inherently morally valuable or not. I would expect atheists to support abortion because I don’t expect them to believer we are inherently morally valuable.

But as a Christian who believes Scripture, I see all humans as equally created in the image of God possessing inherent moral worth and value.
 
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dad

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Can you quote some biblical passages where god is against abortion?
A baby in the belly is a person in the bible. All the rights and protections and laws against killing and etc apply. So do all the verses on child sacrifice.
As for child sacrifice, didnt God order Abraham to sacrifice his child? (i realise at the last minute he was stopped, however Abraham was still expected to be obedient to the command in the 1st place, & present his child for sacrifice).
God sacrificed His Own Son and never allowed anyone to do the same. Abraham passed the test of being willing.
Didnt god sacrifice his own child (jesus)?
Yes. He showed what a sacrifice was all about, He sacrificed Himself to save others. Man sacrifices others to save himself.

Disobedient children are also to be bashed against the rocks.
Was it God that ordered that, or some statement by disgruntles Israelites?
The ancient jews also did not consider an unborn child to be a person, so if it was killed no murder was considered to have been committed.

Looking at this site, your claim seems inaccurate..
What Does the Bible Say About Abortion? | American Right To Life


Fundamentalist Christians have chosen abortion rights as a battleground, because they lost the battle on gay rights & SSM.
Funyy how some people think that because a doomed society plunges deeper into fatal error, that somehow God's people are the one's losing. Sorry. We can't lose for winning. The wicked are losing they are just like cattle being fattened before the slaughter, and don't know it yet.
They think that this is one battle they can win. Most of the fundamentalists fighting for this dont care about either the unborn child or the mother.
Strange diabolical accusation from someone that doesn't seem to know what side is winning and what is down or up.
They care about winning the battle, & getting more politicians elected who will champion christian causes. It is all about gaining political power so they can wage war against secularists!
I get it that the wicked would probably prefer that the opposition simply lay down and die and surrender. Let the world go totally to the devil. God plans to do that to a large degree in allowing the final government of man to be devil run directly. They get to fill up their evil cup to the brim, so all can see how awful that was and be glad when the lion of the tribe of Judah dashes them to pieces and blows the dust to the wind.
 
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dad

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But the story tells us that God was willing to terminate fetuses. Whether this happened or not, this is a story about how terminating a fetus is the right thing to do.
You can't deny it. In the story, it tells you: "The woman will miscarry".
The warning was that sin would be punished by losing a blessing. You were unable to show anyone ever was actually punished that way. God warned Nivenah to repent or face deadly destruction. There was no need for the destruction because they listened to the warning. If the mom's listened, the baby would get to spend it's time in her womb, like Jonah spent his time in the belly of the whale.

dad, perhaps you want to stop and think about that for a moment. Remember, I'm an atheist. I don't believe in God and miracles. So I too assume that no woman was ever punished (unless she did drink the water and caught sicknesses from its fouled contents).
I have to say, though, that this is a red herring. It doesn't matter whether this happened or not; most things in the Bible didn't. What matters is that the Bible endorses abortions. Which it does.

God endorsed obeying. When people do that they get to avoid the boom being lowered for disobedience. His judgments are done in wisdom and mercy.

The Bible endorses abortions.
The Bible says it's okay to force a woman to take an abortifacient.
The Bible says a woman should drink a liquid that may cause her to miscarry.
It's there, in black and white.

If water was just water and had zero bad effects on anyone then it was not some abortifacient! It was a sintifacient. Actually, since we don't know that even one woman was punished that way, it may have just been a warning.
Parents have abortions because they don't want to cause their children to suffer. I'm afraid you just don't understand the matter.

The reasons people il and sacrifice other people are many and varied but all stem from a heart that is not right with God and sin.

You've been lied to for too long, and now you believe the lies. This is very unfortunate. I will pray for you, in a secular sense.
Prayer in a secular sense is what we call a curse.
 
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You’re probably referring to yourself here, not most Believers. WLC wins virtually every debate he engages in.
A matter of opinion, I'm afraid. He certainly didn't win the Craig-Carroll debate.

And once again, arguments from silence are invalid. Repeating them over and over won’t change that fact.
But it's not an argument from silence. It's a very clear case in which abortions are threatened, and absolutely no concern is shown over the life of a fetus being aborted.
If this were to happen today, in some nonreligious setting (say, a "magical" pill was invented that would cause an unfaithful wife to lose her fetus) then anti-abortion Christians would be outraged. Well, that's quite simply exactly what the Bible says; indeed, not just says, but recommends.

Finally, personhood is a made up, subjective and arbitrary term. Ask 10 different pro-abortion advocates and you’ll get 10 different arguments for when personhood begins
There may be many answers, but the question itself is a simple one: "What does it mean to be a person?" Your answer is apparently "to be a human being, created in the image and likeness of God". But there are logical holes in this, which you have failed to address. I'll repeat them here, in the form of four questions, and invite you to point out any errors:

Here is the first question I would like you to address: if one considered a situation with two people (Jeff and Clara) and a transplant surgery that moved Jeff's brain to Clara's body, nobody seriously believes that Clara's body retains Clara's personality. Indeed, it is obvious that the situation would be that Jeff's personality has moved to Clara's body. In fact, it would be more accurate to refer to the entity that inhabits Clara's body as "Jeff" and to consider that person to BE Jeff, but simply in a different "container."
Would you agree with this?

Here is the second question I would like you to address: imagine "...a Frankenstein-like entity on a table, constructed from the material from dead people. Even if it was inevitable or highly likely that he would be brought to life (suppose there is an automated process that will bring him to life in 20 mins), would it be in any way wrong to stop this process from happening, or to even disassemble this entity back into its original components before it did?"

Here is the third question I would like you to address: if it were possible to remove a person's brain from their body and keep it alive, would the old body then be the person? Consider a hypothetical scenario in which "Bob's" body was completely destroyed, but not before his brain could be safely rescued and placed in a new body. Would we then say that Bob had died, or - despite any confusion, regret or anger anyone might justifiably feel - would we, and Bob, say that Bob was still with us?

And here is the last question I would like you to address:
Consider a clear-cut case of brain death, in its most complete form. A human brain (perhaps due to some mysterious hypothetical disease) has been completely killed, registering no activity whatsoever. For the sake of argument, let us imagine that the brain is completely dead, with no chance of reanimation, and that the brain has been removed (remember, this is just a hypothetical scenario) but that the body is still alive, and is capable of being kept alive for years.
Would you consider that the person is still alive, or that they have died?[/QUOTE]
 
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But as a Christian who believes Scripture, I see all humans as equally created in the image of God possessing inherent moral worth and value.

It's almost certainly got nothing to do with you being a Christian. It's entirely due to you living in the time you do. If you had been a Christian living fifty years ago, you would have had a completely different point of view, just like most other Christians.

Take this, as an example:

"Abortion Is Less Serious Than Murder — Murder is a man-initiated activity of taking an actual human life. Artificial abortion is a humanly initiated process which results in the taking of a potential human life. Such abortion is not murder, because the embryo is not fully human — it is an undeveloped person. By aborting, the human life is nipped before it buds (assuming birth begins the budding). If a life must be stopped, it is obviously better to stop it before it ever really gets started. But the question is this: should a human life ever be stopped before it really has a chance to get started?"

Those words were written by Norman Geisler, the famed Christian apologist. You may be familiar with his many writings and speeches. His conclusion was that aborting a human life was a serious thing to do, and not something to be undertaken lightly - but that there were cases where it was necessary to do so.

"When it is a clear-cut case of either taking the life of the unborn baby or letting the mother die, then abortion is called for. An actual life (the mother) is of more intrinsic value than a potential life (the unborn). The mother is a fully developed human; the baby is an undeveloped human. And an actually developed human is better than one which has the potential for full humanity but has not yet developed. Being fully human is a higher value than the mere possibility of becoming fully human. For what is has more value than what may be."

Hence," he continued "the higher intrinsic value of a mother must not be determined by what she does but by what she is. And the mother’s actual humanity is of more value than the unborn’s potential for it."

Geisler also argued that abortion should be permissible in cases of rape: "But what about the right of the child to be born despite the evil way in which it was conceived? In this case the right of the potential life (the embryo) is overshadowed by the right of the actual life of the mother. The rights to life, health, and self-determination — i.e., the rights to personhood — of the fully human mother take precedence over that of the potentially human embryo. A potentially human person is not granted a birthright by violation of a fully human person unless her consent is subsequently given."

This is from Ethics: Alternatives and Issues, a book that Geisler wrote in 1975
 
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A baby in the belly is a person in the bible. All the rights and protections and laws against killing and etc apply. So do all the verses on child sacrifice.
So you say, but you have absolutely no evidence for it. There's nothing at all in the Bible that supports your point of view.

Was it God that ordered that, or some statement by disgruntles Israelites?
"Happy are they that dash the little ones against the stones" may have been a statement by Israelites dreaming of revenge, but they are presented as the heroes of the story, and it can be assumed that God approved of this. After all, he's certainly happy to kill children in plenty of other places in the Bible.

Looking at this site, your claim seems inaccurate..
What Does the Bible Say About Abortion? | American Right To Life
That was underwhelming! I did read it through. They did exactly what you did - they have nothing at all showing disapproval of abortion in the Bible, but whipped up whatever verses they could find about children and babies and then made up their own interpretations.
If there are verses in the Bible which say that abortion is wrong, please feel free to quote them.
 
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