Earth, then light (Big Bang), Created on Day One; Sun, Moon and Stars Created on Day Four

Creation day 1 - 4 could have been very long, even millions of, 'present day years', long.

  • This concept is allowable for a Creationist.

    Votes: 14 42.4%
  • This concept is unallowable for a Creationist

    Votes: 19 57.6%
  • The biblical definition of 'day', is one dark, light, cycle; Not 24 hours, until Day Four

    Votes: 2 6.1%

  • Total voters
    33

Zetetica

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Start bringing in your scripture, quoted, if you are going to discuss.
Thank you for agreeing that sun, moon and stars were created on the fourth day.

God creating the 'heavens', on the First Day is not God creating the stars in the heavens on the First Day of Creation. The 'heavens' created on the First Day, is a place for Saints and Angels to live in Eternal life, living in the Presence of God for all eternity.

What bible are you using, which does not state, 'In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth', as its first sentence? Please quote your version which leaves out 'heavens' in the first sentence of the Bible.

The Authorized King James Bible:


Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Strongs:
שָׁמַיִם

שָׁמַיִם shâmayim, shaw-mah'-yim; dual of an unused singular שָׁמֶה shâmeh; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve):—air, × astrologer, heaven(-s).
_______

Where in any of this does it state "Heaven" is your "universe" (filled with billions and billions of stars)? Those were not yet created until day 4.
 
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Zetetica

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Hello Zetetica,

I, and others, want to evaluate the knowledge, you claim to have, about Time Dilation. Please solve the following science question. You are solving for time since Creation Day One. Please accept and do not argue the parameters of the question. Simply solve the problem so we can evaluate the knowledge you claim to have.

Pop Quiz


Time dilation and space flight

Time dilation would make it possible for passengers in a fast-moving vehicle to travel further into the future while aging very little, in that their great speed slows down the rate of passage of on-board time. That is, the ship's clock (and according to relativity, any human traveling with it) shows less elapsed time than the clocks of observers on earth. For sufficiently high speeds the effect is dramatic. For example, one year of travel might correspond to ten years at home. Indeed, a constant 1 g acceleration would permit humans to travel through the entire known Universe in one human lifetime. The space travelers could return to Earth billions of years in the future.
Quoted From: Wikipedia Time Dilation

Physical time stops elapsing at the speed of light. The closer you get to the speed of light, the slower physical time elapses. Albert Eisenstein's, scientifically proven, 'Theory of Relativity', Time Dilation.

Solve the following science question for time since Day One of Creation.

It is the future and you have a star ship that can do near the speed of light. You decide to "travel through the entire known Universe in one human lifetime" as Wikipedia Time Dilation definition describes. You travel 100,000 billion light years in your 60 years of near light speed travels. A light year is the distance light travels in one earth orbit around the sun. When you come back to earth, 100,000 billion years will have passed on earth (earth, which has remained constant at its present day velocity) in your 60 year lifetime of light speed traveling.

We are using scientists evaluation of 13.8 billion years from Creation, when you start your trip. So, the question becomes, how many years from God's Day One of Creation, is it now? Is it now 100,013.8 billion years from Creation? Or is it now 13.8 billion years + your 60 years of life, from Creation? Or is it, there is no such thing as time from Creation, because physical time is a variable which depends on velocity; in Einstein's words, 'Relative'. We can only rely on God's Word, for the period since His Creation of all that exists.

Okay, can I just strike-through all of this? It has nothing to do with Genesis 1. The stars were made on day 4, not day one. Whether those stars are nuclear reactors, angels, stones of fire, or whatever else, they were made on day 4, not on day 1.
 
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StevenMerten

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The Authorized King James Bible:


Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Strongs:
שָׁמַיִם

שָׁמַיִם shâmayim, shaw-mah'-yim; dual of an unused singular שָׁמֶה shâmeh; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve):—air, × astrologer, heaven(-s).
_______

Where in any of this does it state "Heaven" is your "universe" (filled with billions and billions of stars)? Those were not yet created until day 4.

Hello Zetetica,
You are manipulating me. It was you who said that my bible stating 'heavens and earth' was different from your bible which states 'heaven and earth'. Please stop manipulating me.

Please take the pop quiz I provided on post 200 so we can evaluate your understanding of scientific Time Dilation.
 
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Zetetica

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Hello Zetetica,
You are manipulating me. It was you who said that my bible stating 'heavens and earth' was different from your bible which states 'heaven and earth'. Please stop manipulating me.

Please take the pop quiz I provided on post 200 so we can evaluate your understanding of scientific Time Dilation.

Time dilation is a theory, nothing more. Why would I entertain a theory like this, especially when you've confused even the Big Bang theory to such a degree, I can't make head or tail of it? You've strewn billions of years all over the place, put Earth in light-speed, added time dilation, tossed in the Big Bang explosion/expansion (pick one), and wrapped it all up, claiming it's supported by Genesis 1.

Furthermore, "Heaven" or "Heavens" is irrelevant to the point you're trying to make if you have a historical understanding of what this is.

Singular "Heaven" (Visible "dome" or arch of sky)

Plural "Heavens"
  • Sky where birds dwell.
  • Expanse (empty on day 1, though lit)
  • Abode of God (Third Heaven).

Nowhere here is there a universe on day 1 with billions and billions of nuclear reactor stars. If those exist, they were formed on day 4.
 
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zelosravioli

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PLEASE back this (your belief) up with scripture, would you?
This (in blue below) is all the information God gives us concerning the 'beginning' of the Universe.

Scripture does not explain the details, or 'how' God may have done all this. All scripture really says concerning or explaining the 'beginning' is that 'He' did it. Scripture does not tell us to 'ignore all other information' regarding life, death, science or the Universe. Scripture says to gain and seek wisdom, look at nature and creation, and to look into matters, and to gain understanding - note the text does not mention planets or galaxies, meteors, comets, atoms, protons, etc.....

'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day... Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good'

So the actual creating of celestial objects seems to only happen in verse 1, 3, 5, and verse 16 (v1 heavens and Earth, v3 light in general, v5 lights in the expanse, v16 the sun, moon, and stars).

Note; God had already 'separated the light from darkness' in verse 3, so repeating it in verse 5 and verse 16-17 seems to only explain 'why He did so' and 'the relation/effect it will have on the Earth'.
 
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Zetetica

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This (in blue below) is all the information God gives us concerning the 'beginning' of the Universe.

Scripture does not explain the details, or 'how' God may have done all this. All scripture really says concerning or explaining the 'beginning' is that 'He' did it. Scripture does not tell us to 'ignore all other information' regarding life, death, science or the Universe. Scripture says to gain and seek wisdom, look at nature and creation, and to look into matters, and to gain understanding - note the text does not mention planets or galaxies, meteors, comets, atoms, protons, etc.....

'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day... Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good'

So the actual creating of celestial objects seems to only happen in verse 1, 3, 5, and verse 16 (v1 heavens and Earth, v3 light in general, v5 lights in the expanse, v16 the sun and the moon).

Note; God had already 'separated the light from darkness' in verse 3, so repeating it in verse 5 and verse 16-17 seems to only explain 'why He did so' and 'the relation/effect it will have on the Earth'.

I will consider this explanation to be plausible for the moment. So, let's examine it and see if it stands up:

Hypothesis:
Genesis 1:1-5 is a summary and day 4's Sun/Moon/Stars are just a detailed re-stating of day 1.


  • The days of creation are important. Supposing day 4 is a recap of day 1 is questionable.
Question: Why would the division between light and dark be repeated, adding the Sun and Moon?
  • The Sun was made to rule over the day.
  • The Moon was made to rule over the night.
  • Both luminaries further divide the day from night (emphasis in Day 4 is logical).
_______
If I misunderstood what you were getting at here, my apologies.

However, what I've written here is still useful for those who do believe Genesis 1:1-3 was a summary (that the "light" (DAY) was indeed that of the sun).
 
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StevenMerten

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Star Wars
The Millennium Falcon At Light Speed
Do we have any Star Wars fans out there?

Han Solo and Chewy are on the run from the death star. They jump into the Millennium Falcon and plot a course to Alderon 13.8 billion light years away. With the course plotted, they jump to light speed. They land the Millennium Falcon on the planet Alderon and go into the pub to get information from the local aliens.

What does science believe happened back on earth
during Han Solo and Chewy's light speed, 13.8 billion light year, trip to Alderon? Science believes that 13.8 billion years went past on earth while Han Solo and Chewy were traveling 13.8 billion light years through space. Science believes that 0 time went by on board the Millennium Falcon, during their 13.8 billion light year trip to Alderon. A light year is the distance light travels in one earth orbit around the sun.

Is anyone amazed that this is the way, science believes, physical time actually works? I believe science on how physical time actually works. How about others reading my thread; Do you believe science has it right on how physical time actually works?
 
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Zetetica

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13.5 billion light years at light speed (through a vacuum) is still 13.5 billion years. If you travel less than light speed, the fictional journey would take that much longer.

If it takes light 13.5 billion years to reach “x”, you, going light speed will take 13.5 billion light years to get to “x”.

Am I misunderstanding something here?
 
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StevenMerten

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13.5 billion light years at light speed (through a vacuum) is still 13.5 billion years. If you travel less than light speed, the fictional journey would take that much longer.

If it takes light 13.5 billion years to reach “x”, you, going light speed will take 13.5 billion light years to get to “x”.

Am I misunderstanding something here?
Hello Zetetica,
I thought you thought the world was flat and you didn't have a clue as to what Time Dilation was? Were you deceiving us on this?

Ok, Hollywood, has the Millenium Fulcan traveling at the speed of light. Hans Solo and Chewy travel 13.8 billion light years, in distance, at the speed of light. Science tells us that, to Chewy and Hans on board the Millenium Fulcan, 0 physical time would have gone by on the trip. Science tells us, that back on earth, 13.8 billion years would have gone by, while Hans and Chewy made this trip.

This is how physical time works.
 
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Zetetica

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Hello Zetetica,
I thought you thought the world was flat and you didn't have a clue as to what Time Dilation was? Were you deceiving us on this?

Ok, Hollywood, has the Millenium Fulcan traveling at the speed of light. Hans Solo and Chewy travel 13.8 billion light years, in distance, at the speed of light. Science tells us that, to Chewy and Hans on board the Millenium Fulcan, 0 physical time would have gone by on the trip. Science tells us, that back on earth, 13.8 billion years would have gone by, while Hans and Chewy made this trip.

This is how physical time works.
I didn’t say I was ignorant of these matters, only that I don’t agree. Before I came to my current position, I dedicated much of my time to learning about all these things.

—-

Why did zero time go by for the two, traveling at light speed?
 
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Eloy Craft

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Why take all of this out of context and assume God took millions of years to build up creation?
It's far from out of context applied to a creation day. Since a thousand years' is a euphemism for an undetermined duration and Peter is applying it to a 'day' it's not out of context. Especially considering that Jesus said Abraham saw His day. Was that the day of the Lord or the day Jesus taught about that was only there for a time? Or is it as John's Gospel alludes to the first day of creation when God said "let there be light"? All these examples including the one in Genesis are the day of the Lord.
 
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zelosravioli

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My observations are that the text describing the 6 days are not necessarily chronological, and not meant to be a dogmatic account - especially when we compare chapter 2:4-24. Yet there is an sense of 'some' chronology. There is nothing 'wrong' in trying to discern the whats and hows concerning the unspoken 'details' and vagueness in the creation account.

We could make a reasonable argument that in Verses 1-4 God may be over simplifying a relationship within physics - light, radiation, waves, matter, mass, heat, energy, or 'whatever' to cause 'light to be separated from darkness'.

The lights in verse five needn't be the relationship between the sun, moon and the rotating of the Earth, but it certainly seems the most plausible. Yet we don't have the sun and moon identified, or created (?) till verses 16 (?). The lights "for signs and for seasons and for days and years" may be the sun and moon also, or it could be the constellations and stars - yet the stars aren't actually 'identified' as such until verse 16 (?).

1 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day... Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years.....

15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so.
16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also.
17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,
18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good'


So it seems these may all be the 'same lights' or 'different lights', it is not readily distinguishable, at all, nor meant to be. That is my observation.

So then, forcing a literal scientific 24 hour day upon the text does not seem not be necessary - or fair - since the text itself really does not seem to be concerned with absolute literal chronology or rigidity.

Zetetica, Steven, you seem to be very very reasonable, willing to entertain ideas, and good natured, those are good traits. Please don't take my sometimes technical approach as unwilling or harsh, or open to ideas, as I know such debate sometimes seems as such, God bless you guys. :)


 
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To make it six literal days we have to accept that day was separated from night before there was a sun, and that there could be an evening and a morning without the sun.
All you need is light. You can do the same effect with a softball and a flashlight. Rotate the ball and there is evening and morning on the ball. All you need is light, and light existed from day 1.
But then also note that God did not create plants, but commanded the earth to bring them forth. It takes time for plants to grow from the earth.
There's a lie oft repeated by evolutionists. Here is what actually happened.
Genesis 1: 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
All trees and vegetation were created by God on day 3, not over the course of weeks, months and years.
The "Big Bang" happens on day four. There is not longer an unknown source of light, so we know that it became the sun, moon, stars and the rest of the universe.

It's not hard to follow the sequence and understand it.
 
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StevenMerten

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Why did zero time go by for the two, traveling at light speed?

Hello Zetetica,
I will let Saumya explain it to you in the video below.

I simply accept science which has told me, all my life, that physical time stops elapsing at the speed of light. Albert Einstein was the one to perfect Time Dilation in his Theory of Relativity. Physical time slows down the faster you travel. When you get to the speed of light, physical time stops elapsing.

Time Dilation, the way physical time actually works, is a pretty handy tool for God to have in His tool box, when working on Creation. God can build billions of years of star formation in just six days on earth, if earth is moving at near the speed of light, and the rest of the universe is moving at a slower velocity.

God, man, and even atheist scientists, all use dark to light cycles on earth, to measure the progress of God's Six Days of Creation. Atheist scientist simply have earth at the wrong velocity. This is why they come up with 13.8 billion years since Day One of Creation, rather than six days from Day One of Creation.

Why time stops at the speed of light. By Saumya Ladhani
 
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Zetetica

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Hello Zetetica,
I will let Saumya explain it to you in the video below.

I simply accept science which has told me, all my life, that physical time stops elapsing at the speed of light. Albert Einstein was the one to perfect Time Dilation in his Theory of Relativity. Physical time slows down the faster you travel. When you get to the speed of light, physical time stops elapsing.

Time Dilation, the way physical time actually works, is a pretty handy tool for God to have in His tool box, when working on Creation. God can build billions of years of star formation in just six days on earth, if earth is moving at near the speed of light, and the rest of the universe is moving at a slower velocity.

God, man, and even atheist scientists, all use dark to light cycles on earth, to measure the progress of God's Six Days of Creation. Atheist scientist simply have earth at the wrong velocity. This is why they come up with 13.8 billion years since Day One of Creation, rather than six days from Day One of Creation.

Why time stops at the speed of light. By Saumya Ladhani
Can this be verified? Can we verify that something going at light speed will not experience time?

Do photons degrade?
 
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StevenMerten

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Can this be verified? Can we verify that something going at light speed will not experience time?
Do photons degrade?
Hello Zetetica,
Are you a Christian believer in the Word of God, and believe God Created the Universe in six days? Or are you an atheist, flat earth, scientist?

I will list things I think about, that might be different, in, God's Creation mode, over how they are today, as the final product. There is a lot of unknown possibility out there happening during six days of Creation. Atheist scientists have to prove all possible paths of creation wrong, in a six day Time Dilation Creation, while we only have to find one possible way of Time Dilation that works. The burden of proof, that Time Dilation Creation could not happen, is on atheist scientists, not on six day, Creationists.

As a Christian, whose focus is on building the Kingdom of God on earth through our work of evangelization, we should focus on this. Let the atheists scientists attack us on how our Omnipotent God could not use Time Dilation to Create billions of years of star formation, in six days. It is atheist scientists job to find ways to demand that God's Creation, did not happen in six days, not ours. We simply want atheist scientists to get off our backs until they can figure out a way to prove God wrong. Which they won't, because there are a tremendous amount of things that they have to prove, absolutely could not happen, for God to Create the universe, through Time Dilation, in six days. Why would you, a verse by verse Christian Creationist, want to prove God wrong?

Here are some things I just, off the top of my head, think about, when thinking about three days of Creation, with earth at near the speed of light, before earth is caught in our sun's gravity, on the Fourth Day of Creation.

Earth was Created before everything else, including light, was Created. Then the mass of one septillion stars came into existence, on the head of a needle, next to earth. Was earth the size of an electron, or smaller, at Creation day One? How does the initial expansion of the universe in milliseconds effect earth, which was created separately, did everything else expand faster than earth? Science sees empty space flowing out into existence from, what they interpret as the 'big bang' beginning of it all. Was earth maybe just sitting there in front of the big bang as empty space came into existence, between earth and the big bang, thus causing velocity and Time Dilation? It is easier to accelerate empty space to the speed of light, past earth, than to accelerate the mass of the earth, into empty space.

All the mass of one septillion stars exploded, generating light, and everything else, other than earth, in our universe. Everything else, other than earth, has gravity pulling on it, back toward the big bang where it exploded from. Earth only has only the gravity, of the mass of one septillion stars, pulling it one direction, toward the big bang; This is a massive amount of force, maybe even infinite amount of force, pulling on earth, certainly enough force to bring earth to near the speed of light. Gravity has a speed, so gravity traveling from mass heading towards earths, will hit earth quicker than gravity from mass heading away from earth; how does this effect the pull of gravity on earth? Every atom in the universe pulls toward every other atom in the universe; how does this effect a star ship cutting through these bonds; which would not be present for earth, which was Created outside of everything else?

How about dark matter and energy, which we cannot see, yet we know dark mater mysteriously holds the whole universe together? Did God use dark matter to hold earth together under acceleration/deceleration. Was earth already at the speed of light when God brought it into existence. How would it be if earth were caught in a black hole (time slows down in a black hole due to gravitational Time Dilation). We can go on with a tremendous list of possibilities of what was different during Creation, and atheist scientist have the burden of proving all possibilities, wrong, to prove God wrong.

The big thing to remember is that God tells us that earth was Created first, then the rest of the universe, including light, was created. Earth was Created outside of the big bang and ahead of the time of big bang. This changes the picture drastically from atheist scientists view of earth coming into existence from within the big bang.

All we need is one path for atheist scientist to agree, that yes, a six days on earth, Time Dilation Creation, is possible. Then they will leave us alone and we can get back to the work of our Lord, in evangelizing the world.
 
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Zetetica

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Hello Zetetica,
Are you a Christian believer in the Word of God, and believe God Created the Universe in six days? Or are you an atheist, flat earth, scientist?

I am a Christian. I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. I take it verse by verse, in context, doing my best not to read into what is written. Also, yes, I believe God created Heaven and Earth (ect) in six (morning/evening) days. I'm certainly not an Atheist and I really wonder how my cosmogeny would even work with Atheism.

I will list things I think about, that might be different, in, God's Creation mode, over how they are today, as the final product. There is a lot of unknown possibility out there happening during six days of Creation. Atheist scientists have to prove all possible paths of creation wrong, in a six day Time Dilation Creation, while we only have to find one possible way of Time Dilation that works. The burden of proof, that Time Dilation Creation could not happen, is on atheist scientists, not on six day, Creationists.

Okay. Let's see if I'm getting you correctly. You don't believe in the time dilation model you've been proposing, you're just proposing it for the Atheists to mull over?

As a Christian, whose focus is on building the Kingdom of God on earth through our work of evangelization, we should focus on this. Let the atheists scientists attack us on how our Omnipotent God could not use Time Dilation to Create billions of years of star formation, in six days. It is atheist scientists job to find ways to demand that God's Creation, did not happen in six days, not ours. We simply want atheist scientists to get off our backs until they can figure out a way to prove God wrong. Which they won't, because there are a tremendous amount of things that they have to prove, absolutely could not happen, for God to Create the universe, through Time Dilation, in six days.

Okay, I think I get what you're doing now.

Why would you, a verse by verse Christian Creationist, want to prove God wrong?

I can't prove God wrong, not that I'd want to try.

Here are some things I just, off the top of my head, think about, when thinking about three days of Creation, with earth at near the speed of light, before earth is caught in our sun's gravity, on the Fourth Day of Creation.

Earth was Created before everything else, including light, was Created. Then the mass of one septillion stars came into existence, on the head of a needle, next to earth. Was earth the size of an electron, or smaller, at Creation day One? How does the initial expansion of the universe in milliseconds effect earth, which was created separately, did everything else expand faster than earth? Science sees empty space flowing out into existence from, what they interpret as the 'big bang' beginning of it all. Was earth maybe just sitting there in front of the big bang as empty space came into existence, between earth and the big bang, thus causing velocity and Time Dilation? It is easier to accelerate empty space to the speed of light, past earth, than to accelerate the mass of the earth, into empty space.

All the mass of one septillion stars exploded, generating light, and everything else, other than earth, in our universe. Everything else, other than earth, has gravity pulling on it, back toward the big bang where it exploded from. Earth only has only the gravity, of the mass of one septillion stars, pulling it one direction, toward the big bang; This is a massive amount of force, maybe even infinite amount of force, pulling on earth, certainly enough force to bring earth to near the speed of light. Gravity has a speed, so gravity traveling from mass heading towards earths, will hit earth quicker than gravity from mass heading away from earth; how does this effect the pull of gravity on earth? Every atom in the universe pulls toward every other atom in the universe; how does this effect a star ship cutting through these bonds; which would not be present for earth, which was Created outside of everything else?

How about dark matter and energy, which we cannot see, yet we know dark mater mysteriously holds the whole universe together? Did God use dark matter to hold earth together under acceleration/deceleration. Was earth already at the speed of light when God brought it into existence. How would it be if earth were caught in a black hole (time slows down in a black hole due to gravitational Time Dilation). We can go on with a tremendous list of possibilities of what was different during Creation, and atheist scientist have the burden of proving all possibilities, wrong, to prove God wrong.

The big thing to remember is that God tells us that earth was Created first, then the rest of the universe, including light, was created. Earth was Created outside of the big bang and ahead of the time of big bang. This changes the picture drastically from atheist scientists view of earth coming into existence from within the big bang.

All we need is one path for atheist scientist to agree, that yes, a six days on earth, Time Dilation Creation, is possible. Then they will leave us alone and we can get back to the work of our Lord, in evangelizing the world.

I think I get your point.
 
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StevenMerten

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Okay. Let's see if I'm getting you correctly. You don't believe in the time dilation model you've been proposing, you're just proposing it for the Atheists to mull over?
Hello Zetetica,
No, that is not correct.

I believe God created Adam, thousands of years ago. I believe everything in the universe was Created, by God, on the week Adam was made. I do believe, in a Time Dilation creation.

When I talk about Time Dilation, I am really talking about, how physical time actually works. Physical time is a variable, which varies, all the way down to stopping, depending on velocity and gravity. The universe has infinite objects in the universe, and they are all traveling at different velocities, with different forces of gravity working on them. Thus, everything in the universe has physical time elapsing at different rates. Even you, standing on earth, next to a skyscraper or pyramid, has a different elapsing time compared to someone standing in the open; though it is a vary minuscule difference in elapsing physical time.

Science uses earth's present velocity to get their number 13.8 billion years from creation. What are the chances that our earth was traveling at its present slow poke pace, when the mass of one septillion stars, on the head of needle, was exploding out into becoming the massive expansive state of the universe, it is today? Earth was not at our present velocity through the, at least first three days, of Creation.

The only reason beings are not presently laughing at scientists, when they tell us the universe was created 13.8 billion years ago, is because there are no aliens around to tell them that time elapses differently on their planet, thus a slower or faster, elapsing physical time, thus a shorter or longer period of time since creation.

For example: It is the future where near light speed star ships like the Millenium Falcon exist. You travel ten billion light years to another planet. Then you travel ten billion light years back to earth. You do this in a week. Because time slowed down so much, because you were traveling so fast, billions of years were passing on earth while only hours were passing for you at near light speed. When you get back to earth, twenty billion years have passed by, while only a week had passed by for you. So how many years from creation is it now? Is it 33.8 billion years from creation, which is the amount of time which has past at earth's velocity; Or is it 13.8 billion years + your one week you have been away from earth, traveling at near the speed of light, from creation?

God could easily create billions of years of star formation, in one week on earth, by simply putting earth at near the speed of light. God Commanding stars into existence in a week of creation, around earth is the image we get from reading the Bible. It is an image which can easily, literally, physically happen, through using Time Dilation. Why wouldn't God do it this way. It is clearly obvious that stars actually came into existence in one week on earth, as God says they did.
 
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zelosravioli

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Hello Zetetica,
Are you a Christian believer in the Word of God, and believe God Created the Universe in six days? Or are you an atheist, flat earth, scientist?

I will list things I think about, that might be different, in, God's Creation mode, over how they are today, as the final product. There is a lot of unknown possibility out there happening during six days of Creation. Atheist scientists have to prove all possible paths of creation wrong, in a six day Time Dilation Creation, while we only have to find one possible way of Time Dilation that works. The burden of proof, that Time Dilation Creation could not happen, is on atheist scientists, not on six day, Creationists.

As a Christian, whose focus is on building the Kingdom of God on earth through our work of evangelization, we should focus on this. Let the atheists scientists attack us on how our Omnipotent God could not use Time Dilation to Create billions of years of star formation, in six days. It is atheist scientists job to find ways to demand that God's Creation, did not happen in six days, not ours. We simply want atheist scientists to get off our backs until they can figure out a way to prove God wrong. Which they won't, because there are a tremendous amount of things that they have to prove, absolutely could not happen, for God to Create the universe, through Time Dilation, in six days. Why would you, a verse by verse Christian Creationist, want to prove God wrong?

Here are some things I just, off the top of my head, think about, when thinking about three days of Creation, with earth at near the speed of light, before earth is caught in our sun's gravity, on the Fourth Day of Creation.

Earth was Created before everything else, including light, was Created. Then the mass of one septillion stars came into existence, on the head of a needle, next to earth. Was earth the size of an electron, or smaller, at Creation day One? How does the initial expansion of the universe in milliseconds effect earth, which was created separately, did everything else expand faster than earth? Science sees empty space flowing out into existence from, what they interpret as the 'big bang' beginning of it all. Was earth maybe just sitting there in front of the big bang as empty space came into existence, between earth and the big bang, thus causing velocity and Time Dilation? It is easier to accelerate empty space to the speed of light, past earth, than to accelerate the mass of the earth, into empty space.

All the mass of one septillion stars exploded, generating light, and everything else, other than earth, in our universe. Everything else, other than earth, has gravity pulling on it, back toward the big bang where it exploded from. Earth only has only the gravity, of the mass of one septillion stars, pulling it one direction, toward the big bang; This is a massive amount of force, maybe even infinite amount of force, pulling on earth, certainly enough force to bring earth to near the speed of light. Gravity has a speed, so gravity traveling from mass heading towards earths, will hit earth quicker than gravity from mass heading away from earth; how does this effect the pull of gravity on earth? Every atom in the universe pulls toward every other atom in the universe; how does this effect a star ship cutting through these bonds; which would not be present for earth, which was Created outside of everything else?

How about dark matter and energy, which we cannot see, yet we know dark mater mysteriously holds the whole universe together? Did God use dark matter to hold earth together under acceleration/deceleration. Was earth already at the speed of light when God brought it into existence. How would it be if earth were caught in a black hole (time slows down in a black hole due to gravitational Time Dilation). We can go on with a tremendous list of possibilities of what was different during Creation, and atheist scientist have the burden of proving all possibilities, wrong, to prove God wrong.

The big thing to remember is that God tells us that earth was Created first, then the rest of the universe, including light, was created. Earth was Created outside of the big bang and ahead of the time of big bang. This changes the picture drastically from atheist scientists view of earth coming into existence from within the big bang.

All we need is one path for atheist scientist to agree, that yes, a six days on earth, Time Dilation Creation, is possible. Then they will leave us alone and we can get back to the work of our Lord, in evangelizing the world.
"The big thing to remember is that God tells us that earth was Created first, then the rest of the universe..." (Steven from above)
Remember? You mean assume. The text does not say whether the heavens or Earth were created 'first'. Maybe one before the other, or simultaneously, it does not say, so that is not something to 'remember':
'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..'

For your model to be begin to be somewhat plausible, yes Earth would have to be 13 billion years from where we are now in the Universe. But the text says there was light on day one, if you say light was shining on Earth on day one that would mean another object was causing photons to fall on Earth. What object could that be then? If Earth needs to be at the speed of light - then both objects - the one producing light energy and the Earth receiving it need to both travel together at the speed of light.
Q. So what object travels with us? The Sun?
Q. Could light be received at all between the two at the speed of light?

"...Gravity has a speed..." Correct, so that is a problem for your Earth 13.8 billion years away from the 'mass'. It would take 13.8 billion years for gravity to take hold of Earth theoretically. No, yes?

"Are you a Christian believer in the Word of God, and believe God Created the Universe in six days? Or are you an atheist..." (Steven)
I wish you wouldn't refer to people who hold to an old earth theory and anything other than the 6 day model as unbelievers and such. The definition of atheist isn't even appropriate. People can believe in God and His Word without believing in a literal 6 day creation.

After all you are suggesting that the Earth, which is made of matter (alot of matter) can travel at light speed, or near it... I don't mind the theorizing, but name calling or such criticism here is not justified.
 
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zelosravioli

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Hello Zetetica,
I will let Saumya explain it to you in the video below.

I simply accept science which has told me, all my life, that physical time stops elapsing at the speed of light. Albert Einstein was the one to perfect Time Dilation in his Theory of Relativity. Physical time slows down the faster you travel. When you get to the speed of light, physical time stops elapsing.

Time Dilation, the way physical time actually works, is a pretty handy tool for God to have in His tool box, when working on Creation. God can build billions of years of star formation in just six days on earth, if earth is moving at near the speed of light, and the rest of the universe is moving at a slower velocity.

God, man, and even atheist scientists, all use dark to light cycles on earth, to measure the progress of God's Six Days of Creation. Atheist scientist simply have earth at the wrong velocity. This is why they come up with 13.8 billion years since Day One of Creation, rather than six days from Day One of Creation.

Why time stops at the speed of light. By Saumya Ladhani
This, as well as the Hans Solo theory, only works in a 'linear' sense as far as the observation of time goes. You add positions that are non-linear to the direction of c light, and it adds another set of dimensions.
So, if something travels at the speed of light in a 'circle' around another object, the hypothetical speeding observer will see the clock 'has' moved since his last orbit. Or, the spaceship observer will see the clock has moved at the stationary point he keeps circling past (thus traveling thru time only works in one direction, theoretically you gain your time back when you reverse the direction back).

My point is that; your model demands that the Earth travel linearly in a straight line from 13 billion miles 'away' and 'toward' our current place in the Universe, right?
 
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