Jesus of History and Myth

Tom Farebrother said:

Maybe you expect that - but what bearing does what you or I expect have on it?

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Well, it sure would look more believable if it were actually accurate and not contradictory, wouldn't it?

But sure, there's no particular reason an all powerfull being with a "mysterious plan" would have to live upto expectations.

But as a consequence, christianity is no different from any other religion and as a direct result, there is no particular reason to consider christianity any more credible then any other religion.

The bible has an internal consistency

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Well, no... the point. It isn't internally consistent. And it most certainly isn't externally consistent.

As said previously in this thread by others, if for example thousands of people witness many resurected dead walking around, you'ld expect to find a few extra biblical mentions as well. Instead, you only find references in the source of the claims - and not even in all renditions of those supposed same events.

, it was put together using the techniques available at the time.

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Just like all other religions.

There are a great many works examining it from a historical, literary, faith etc perspective that all add to the overall picture. The ‘it had something to do with God therefore it should meet some arbitrary standard’ notion doesn’t add much to that.

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I disagree. Considering what christians, especially fundamentalists, tend to claim about how all this came about, I'ld expect much more extra-biblical evidence and consistency. Much more. Instead, we find what we expect to find when we assume that christianity is just like all other religions.

And our notions about what it should be like are arbitrary - they don’t mean anything.

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I disagree.
I think these are reasonable expectations.

Kind of like the expectation that an experienced brain surgeon will have more success removing a brain tumor then a car mechanic.

When an all powerfull god goes through so much effort of coming down in human form etc, all to set the stage to communicate his all-important message - I'ld expect better results then mere human effort to invent a lore and mythology.

But that is not what I see. I see a bible that in essence isn't any different from a quran or a bagavad ghita or any other religious lore.

I'ld expect that the efforts of an all powerfull god would stand out from the crowd among mere human efforts. But it doesn't. At all.

Why would that be an unreasonable expectation?

DogmaHunter said:

Well, it sure would look more believable if it were actually accurate and not contradictory, wouldn't it?

But sure, there's no particular reason an all powerfull being with a "mysterious plan" would have to live upto expectations.

But as a consequence, christianity is no different from any other religion and as a direct result, there is no particular reason to consider christianity any more credible then any other religion.




Well, no... the point. It isn't internally consistent. And it most certainly isn't externally consistent.

As said previously in this thread by others, if for example thousands of people witness many resurected dead walking around, you'ld expect to find a few extra biblical mentions as well. Instead, you only find references in the source of the claims - and not even in all renditions of those supposed same events.




Just like all other religions.




I disagree. Considering what christians, especially fundamentalists, tend to claim about how all this came about, I'ld expect much more extra-biblical evidence and consistency. Much more. Instead, we find what we expect to find when we assume that christianity is just like all other religions.



I disagree.
I think these are reasonable expectations.

Kind of like the expectation that an experienced brain surgeon will have more success removing a brain tumor then a car mechanic.

When an all powerfull god goes through so much effort of coming down in human form etc, all to set the stage to communicate his all-important message - I'ld expect better results then mere human effort to invent a lore and mythology.

But that is not what I see. I see a bible that in essence isn't any different from a quran or a bagavad ghita or any other religious lore.

I'ld expect that the efforts of an all powerfull god would stand out from the crowd among mere human efforts. But it doesn't. At all.

Why would that be an unreasonable expectation?

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All you are actually saying here is ‘I don’t know much about any of this’.

2PhiloVoid said:

This is an ignorant and irresponsible comparison for you to make, DogmaHunter.

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I completely disagree.
The argument I was replying to, was the statement that since people that knew Jesus first hand were willing to die for their beliefs, that somehow is evidence that what they believed about Jesus was actually true.

If that is the case, then the voluntary death of followers of Jim Jones is also evidence for the same.

Obviously, I disagree. People willing to die for whatever it is that they believe, is only evidence that they think their beliefs are very important. So important that dieing for it is justified. But it doesn't say ANYTHING about how true their beliefs are.

Clearly people are prepared to die for beliefs - regardless of the beliefs being accurate or not.

It ignores all the little nasty details of contextual difference between what transpired in the psychology of the earliest Christians versus that which manifested in the foolish people who were caught up in Jones' cult.

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Disagree.
The basics of the argument was that being willing to die for their beliefs, lends credence to their beliefs.

I'm just pointing out that that is nonsense. There's nothing to be said about Jim Jones or Al Qaida or any other group you wish to point to that has its "martyrs" or whatever word you wish to use for people willing to die for their beliefs, that counters that point.

Maybe do your homework and your analytical thinking better........................................like, a whole lot better!

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Maybe consider the context of my response and what I'm responding to, first.

DogmaHunter said:

I completely disagree.
The argument I was replying to, was the statement that since people that knew Jesus first hand were willing to die for their beliefs, that somehow is evidence that what they believed about Jesus was actually true.

If that is the case, then the voluntary death of followers of Jim Jones is also evidence for the same.

Obviously, I disagree. People willing to die for whatever it is that they believe, is only evidence that they think their beliefs are very important. So important that dieing for it is justified. But it doesn't say ANYTHING about how true their beliefs are.

Clearly people are prepared to die for beliefs - regardless of the beliefs being accurate or not.




Disagree.
The basics of the argument was that being willing to die for their beliefs, lends credence to their beliefs.

I'm just pointing out that that is nonsense. There's nothing to be said about Jim Jones or Al Qaida or any other group you wish to point to that has its "martyrs" or whatever word you wish to use for people willing to die for their beliefs, that counters that point.



Maybe consider the context of my response and what I'm responding to, first.

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I did, and you're clearly incorrect and can be seen to be incorrect by anyone willing to take the time to apply some research in social psychology to the egregious equivocation you're proffering here. Because, that's what it is, an equivocation.

Did you even read the full social and psychological contexts that were involved in the Jim Jones cult............................all of which were tied to this guy who somehow had an ordination from a 'sister' denomination within the Restoration Movement (i.e. the Disciples of Christ)?

No, I have a feeling you didn't. And what really irks me is that I think you're smarter than that, but you just don't care enough to check the facts due to your prejudice against religion.

Tom Farebrother said:

All you are actually saying here is ‘I don’t know much about any of this’.

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No, that's what you made of it to avoid having to engage the points raised.

2PhiloVoid said:

I did, and you're clearly incorrect and can be seen to be incorrect by anyone willing to take the time to apply some research in social psychology to the egregious equivocation you're proffering here. Because, that's what it is, an equivocation.

Did you even read the full social and psychological contexts that were involved in the Jim Jones cult............................all of which were tied to this guy who somehow had an ordination from a 'sister' denomination within the Restoration Movement (i.e. the Disciples of Christ)?

No, I have a feeling you didn't. And what really irks me is that I think you're smarter than that, but you just don't care enough to check the facts due to your prejudice against religion.

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None of this is dealing with the point I actually raised.

Being that people willing to die for their beliefs, says nothing at all about the accuracy of those beliefs.

What the beliefs are, doesn't matter.
Jim Jones is just one example.
Muslim terorists are another.
There are many more.

DogmaHunter said:

I require reasons to believe something.

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Faith doesn't.
That's why it's called faith.
Your faith is in things/ something other than truth.

DogmaHunter said:

I think @cvanwey 's whole point, is exactly that there is nothing else

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That's not fair.

If there were 1000 eyewitness reports of miraculous events. Caused by God in heaven on Earth...

Then all those 1000 would be compiled into the Bible.

But the 1000 different reports do not suddenly become just one.

The Bible is a compendium. It's a compilation. It's a collection of all of the eyewitness reports of evidences of God in Heaven's interventions plural into human history on Earth. Over thousands of years. Throughout the Middle East.

The fact that it's put between one pair of covers does not telescope, Ezekiel Jeremiah Daniel and every other priest and prophet into a single eyewitness report of one event in one place at one time.

Yes?

The Bible is like a "project Blue Book" Detailing ALL of the circumstantial evidences plural for the existence of. Supernatural. Phenomena occurring on Earth.

The Bible is not one single piece of evidence. It's a compilation of dozens and dozens and dozens of pieces of evidence. eye witnessed over thousands of years throughout the Middle East.

DogmaHunter said:

It only matters in the heads of those who believe that.

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So you say so you believe? But on what evidence. Do you have evidence disproving the existence of God in heaven? Can you prove that no super-terrestrial actor has ever intervened into human history on earth?

I'm sure you have a reasonable belief. A reasonable faith. In the efficacy of Science and Naturalism. The Industrial Revolution and modern technology prove. That science is very useful and valuable. In many circumstances much of the time.

Yet I think you have an unreasonable faith. In the non existence. Of God in heaven. The claim of the Bible is NOT that God in Heaven intervenes into human history on Earth at every single place at every single time. Most of the time in most places. God in Heaven, apparently leaves Earth alone, such that things usually occur, according to natural law.

Yes, the claim is that God in heaven every once in awhile. Every so often here or there intervenes into human history on Earth. Causing anomalies. Anomalous occurrences we commonly called miracles. God in Heaven's intervention into human history on Earth is SPORADIC only occurring now and again here and there. Every once in awhile.

The claim is that there is an intelligently directed X Factor. That OCCASIONALLY affects. The physics of phenomena occurring upon this planet.

Humans have not had. Sophisticated modern scientific detection equipment. At every location up on the planet. Operating. For every moment of human history upon the same. So at present to date. It is not and has not been possible to disprove. The assertion. Of a sporadic occasional super terrestrial intervention into human history on Earth.

So to be honest with all the respect. You have zero evidence for the non existence of the X Factor. Whereas Christians have numerous eyewitness reports. Of. anomalous miraculous events caused by the X Factor. For thousands of years. Across. The globe.

I feel you do not appreciate exactly what it would take to disprove. The allegation. Of the existence of God in Heaven, intervening into human history on Earth.

Maybe you have never felt the presence of God. But others say they have. And your life does not generalize to the whole of humanity anymore than your eye color hair color or highlight generalizes to the whole of humanity. Plenty of other people have different eye color hair color and highlights that you. Just because you have blue eyes. Doesn't mean everybody else has blue eyes? Just because you have never felt the presence of God doesn't mean nobody else ever has.

I feel your argument is like you standing in no man's land between the lines in World War one. You are fortunate to be standing on an undisturbed plot of land in between all of the craters all around. Because there is grass under your feet. You extrapolate. And generalize to all of no Mans land and conclude there has been no artillery bombardment.

But others are saying they are taking heavy fire and artillery rounds are cratering the land under their feet. Just because you're not standing in a crater doesn't mean somebody else up or down the line can't be either

just because God in Heaven hasn't intervened into your life doesn't mean God in Heaven did not intervene / Could not have intervened into the life of Saint Paul of Tarsus on his way to Damascus in approximately 38ad

Likewise, the fact that natural physical law as known to and understood by humans. Appears to apply 99% of the time. Does not mean it cannot be? Manipulated by Super Terrestrial. Intervention. The other 1% of the time.

DogmaHunter said:

Well, it sure would look more believable if it were actually accurate and not contradictory, wouldn't it?

But sure, there's no particular reason an all powerfull being with a "mysterious plan" would have to live upto expectations.

But as a consequence, christianity is no different from any other religion and as a direct result, there is no particular reason to consider christianity any more credible then any other religion.




Well, no... the point. It isn't internally consistent. And it most certainly isn't externally consistent.

As said previously in this thread by others, if for example thousands of people witness many resurected dead walking around, you'ld expect to find a few extra biblical mentions as well. Instead, you only find references in the source of the claims - and not even in all renditions of those supposed same events.




Just like all other religions.




I disagree. Considering what christians, especially fundamentalists, tend to claim about how all this came about, I'ld expect much more extra-biblical evidence and consistency. Much more. Instead, we find what we expect to find when we assume that christianity is just like all other religions.



I disagree.
I think these are reasonable expectations.

Kind of like the expectation that an experienced brain surgeon will have more success removing a brain tumor then a car mechanic.

When an all powerfull god goes through so much effort of coming down in human form etc, all to set the stage to communicate his all-important message - I'ld expect better results then mere human effort to invent a lore and mythology.

But that is not what I see. I see a bible that in essence isn't any different from a quran or a bagavad ghita or any other religious lore.

I'ld expect that the efforts of an all powerfull god would stand out from the crowd among mere human efforts. But it doesn't. At all.

Why would that be an unreasonable expectation?

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I respectfully reject your premise that the Bible is contradictory. For example, the gospels are eyewitness reports. Of the events surrounding Jesus's earthly life. Ministry and alleged resurrection.

As is true with all eyewitness reports different eye witnesses emphasize. Different sets of particular points and De emphasize other idiosyncratic sets. Of. facts. Each focuses on some things and overlooks other things. They have different angles in different takes on the events that transpired.

But that doesn't make them false. Wrong or contradictory. It just means you have to add them up. Put all the pieces together. To get the best picture of what actually occurred

just like you always have to do with all eye witness reports. But no contradictions.

DogmaHunter said:

None of this is dealing with the point I actually raised.

Being that people willing to die for their beliefs, says nothing at all about the accuracy of those beliefs.

What the beliefs are, doesn't matter.
Jim Jones is just one example.
Muslim terorists are another.
There are many more.

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Ok. On that point, and if that is what you're really saying then, I'll agree.

It just sounds like you're also trying to imply that the fact that when people die (with varying reasons) for their respective religious beliefs this also means that none of those beliefs contain any kind of accuracy whatsoever. But, since you're taking the time to correct me in all of this, I'm going to assume that you're not also implying this additional point.

Steve Petersen said:

I think there are obvious examples of how legends grow around historical figures. I suspect that this also occurred around a historical Jesus. Verses purporting to show that his life was foretold by the prophets are all post-facto fictions. Even the gospels differ on the chronology of his life and ministry.

All that said, the stories are powerful and penetrate to the core of our consciences, setting an example of love and bringing to us the unique idea that God cares intimately for humanity.

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Factoring in the human psyche, whether a story or tales are true or not, is not necessary to have impact on peoples lives.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Faith doesn't.
That's why it's called faith.

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It's also why anything can be believed on "faith".
"Faith" is not a pathway to truth.

Your faith is in things/ something other than truth.

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No, I don't do "faith".

Erik Nelson said:

That's not fair.

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Except that it is.

If there were 1000 eyewitness reports of miraculous events. Caused by God in heaven on Earth...

Then all those 1000 would be compiled into the Bible.

Click to expand...

Why?

But the 1000 different reports do not suddenly become just one.

The Bible is a compendium. It's a compilation. It's a collection of all of the eyewitness reports of evidences of God in Heaven's interventions plural into human history on Earth. Over thousands of years. Throughout the Middle East.

The fact that it's put between one pair of covers does not telescope, Ezekiel Jeremiah Daniel and every other priest and prophet into a single eyewitness report of one event in one place at one time.

Yes?

The Bible is like a "project Blue Book" Detailing ALL of the circumstantial evidences plural for the existence of. Supernatural. Phenomena occurring on Earth.

The Bible is not one single piece of evidence. It's a compilation of dozens and dozens and dozens of pieces of evidence. eye witnessed over thousands of years throughout the Middle East.

Click to expand...

You think I don't know that the bible is a collection of the ramblings of dozens, if not hundreds, of biased anonymous authors?

DogmaHunter said:

It's also why anything can be believed on "faith".
"Faith" is not a pathway to truth.
No, I don't do "faith".

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LIke you posted first - "faith" (in anything else) is not a pathway to truth.
Yes, you do "faith", whatever is the basis of your life or decisions , faith in something or some way , whatever, only it is not in truth. You have no faith in truth according to posts.
"FAITH", in Ekklesia, (believers following Jesus), IS a GIFT. Sheer Grace. Totally undeserved. AND it is a choice. A choice to TRUST the CREATOR (even if someone doesn't 'know' HE EXISTS, they can choose to have faith , and trust Him , without knowing why and without knowing any reason why to trust Him. That is okay and fine with Him.

DogmaHunter said:

You think I don't know that the bible is a collection of the ramblings of dozens, if not hundreds, of biased anonymous authors?

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Sigh....
why do you think that ?

Erik Nelson said:

So you say so you believe?

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No. I'm saying that only believers worry about heaven and hell and what the god they believe in said or didn't say.

Do you have evidence disproving the existence of God in heaven?

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Do you have any evidence disproving whalhalla?
The burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim. In this case, that's the theist who makes claims about a heaven. I'm exactly NOT a believe because theists can't live upto their burden of proof.

Can you prove that no super-terrestrial actor has ever intervened into human history on earth?

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No and neither can I prove that it wasn't an extra-dimensional unicorn either.
Proving a negative is logically impossible.

It's upto the one claiming that there WAS such an intervention, to support that claim.
Failing to do so, is the reason why I don't accept said claim.

I'm sure you have a reasonable belief. A reasonable faith. In the efficacy of Science and Naturalism

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No.

I don't require "faith" for things that demonstrably work.

Yet I think you have an unreasonable faith. In the non existence. Of God in heaven.

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You make zero sense and are still confused about the burden of proof.
Faith is what you require to accept theistic claims.
I don't have such faith. So I don't accept those claims.

The theist, is the one that requires faith.

The claim of the Bible is NOT that God in Heaven intervenes into human history on Earth at every single place at every single time. Most of the time in most places. God in Heaven, apparently leaves Earth alone, such that things usually occur, according to natural law.

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Now support that claim with verifiable evidence.

Anomalous occurrences we commonly called miracles.

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Or "appeal to incredulity/ignorance".

"we don't understand this thing here, so therefor god".

God in Heaven's intervention into human history on Earth is SPORADIC only occurring now and again here and there. Every once in awhile. The claim is that there is an intelligently directed X Factor. That OCCASIONALLY affects. The physics of phenomena occurring upon this planet.

Click to expand...

Prove it.

Humans have not had. Sophisticated modern scientific detection equipment. At every location up on the planet. Operating. For every moment of human history upon the same. So at present to date. It is not and has not been possible to disprove. The assertion. Of a sporadic occasional super terrestrial intervention into human history on Earth. So to be honest with all the respect. You have zero evidence for the non existence of the X Factor.

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Again with the shifting of the burden of proof.
Your bare assertions aren't assumed to be true until proven false...

What is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

Whereas Christians have numerous eyewitness reports.

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So do muslims, scientologists, alien abductees, ....

Of. anomalous miraculous events caused by the X Factor. For thousands of years. Across. The globe.

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We know for a fact that humans are very prone to being mistaken, lying, deceived, superstitious,.....

Sorry, I require a little bit more then just the word of biased people who lived during a time when they didn't even realise the earth orbits the sun and who interpreted just about everything they didn't understand as some "miracle".

I feel you do not appreciate exactly what it would take to disprove. The allegation. Of the existence of God in Heaven, intervening into human history on Earth.

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I can't disprove unfalsifiable nonsense.
Please learn the concept of the burden of proof.

I don't need to disprove anything because you have nothing to disprove. All you have are bare faith based unfalsifiable claims.

Maybe you have never felt the presence of God. But others say they have

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People say a lot of things.
There's also people who "felt the presence" of Allah, Visjnoe, Krisjna, Shiva, Apollo, Thor, Odin,..... But you don't believe them. You only believe those who "felt the presence" of the entity that you already believe in. Which is a dead-give-away.

And your life does not generalize to the whole of humanity anymore than your eye color hair color or highlight generalizes to the whole of humanity. Plenty of other people have different eye color hair color and highlights that you. Just because you have blue eyes. Doesn't mean everybody else has blue eyes? Just because you have never felt the presence of God doesn't mean nobody else ever has.

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Just because you never felt the presence of Odin doesn't mean that nobody else ever has.

Having said that, maybe you should stop pretending to know me.

But others are saying they are taking heavy fire and artillery rounds are cratering the land under their feet.

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But when you go there and investigate, there are no craters to be found. No bullets to be seen. No explosions to be heared.

And when that is pointed out, they reply with "ow, but it's supernatural explosions and craters and what not... you can't see them, but we 'feel' them, you just got to have faith they exist...."

Likewise, the fact that natural physical law as known to and understood by humans. Appears to apply 99% of the time. Does not mean it cannot be? Manipulated by Super Terrestrial. Intervention. The other 1% of the time.

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Making stuff up.
Appealing to ignorance.
Appealing to incredulity.
Not understanding the burden of proof.
Thinks "faith" is a valid reason to believe something.

Colour me unimpressed...

2PhiloVoid said:

It just sounds like you're also trying to imply that the fact that when people die (with varying reasons) for their respective religious beliefs this also means that none of those beliefs contain any kind of accuracy whatsoever.

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I never once said that.

I literally always said that people willing to die for their beliefs, only tells you that they think their beliefs are important, and that it has no bearing at all on how accurate (or inaccurate) those beliefs are. None at all.

But, since you're taking the time to correct me in all of this, I'm going to assume that you're not also implying this additional point.

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Idd.

How important a belief is to somebody, tells you nothing about how (in)accurate that belief is.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

LIke you posted first - "faith" (in anything else) is not a pathway to truth.

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Faith, full stop, is not a pathway to truth. Concerning anything at all.
"faith" is "just believing".

Yes, you do "faith",

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No, I don't.

whatever is the basis of your life or decisions , faith in something or some way

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I base my decisions on evidence and reasonable expectations. Not on faith.
I assess levels of confidence / certainty and keep my expectations withing those limits. And if I don't know, I won't pretend to know and just believe something instead.

You have no faith in truth according to posts. "FAITH", in Ekklesia, (believers following Jesus), IS a GIFT. Sheer Grace. Totally undeserved. AND it is a choice. A choice to TRUST the CREATOR (even if someone doesn't 'know' HE EXISTS, they can choose to have faith , and trust Him , without knowing why and without knowing any reason why to trust Him. That is okay and fine with Him.

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This makes no sense at all.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Sigh....
why do you think that ?

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Because I had history classes in school and I have a questioning mind.