Jesus of History and Myth

[Chesterton]

I have not yet gotten around to an exhaustive study of the miracles stories. Hey! I'm only 75, what do you expect?

I asked about one story. More of an incident than a story, really.

But off the top of my head let me ask if you discard the miracle stories in pagan literature?

I haven't done exhaustive studies about whatever you're referring to.

 

[Erik Nelson]

A) God is the unified author, and all scribes of scripture were directed by this unified provider (Yahweh), but somehow provided conflicting details from one author to the next ?

no conflicts, just different perspectives which provide different sets of perfectly compatible facts

The same way I know of Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc... Human told tales, writings, etc...

which were preserved
as if by Divine Providence,
completely consistent with Christian claims

Why is the original text not preserved, if this was God's chosen vessel? Why allow for later scribes to piece bits together, interject, add, omit, gather such texts? Why rely upon humans to perform something in which they clearly blundered?

the whole point of the (alleged) interaction is God in heaven guiding humans to a better more humane future

humans aren't perfect, God (allegedly) makes do with what's available

i guess God could theoretically surround each text of scripture with a magic glowing force field...

instead God got humans to faithfully replicate accurate copies

got the same job done, same information preserved

The asserted messages from God are not clear, as He apparently allowed for scripture to be vague, instead of clear. Hence, the multiple denominations, subsets, wars/fighting/debates over general content, etc.... God appears to be the direct providing author of confusion.

let's say that is true - God in heaven exists AND foments conflict on earth is perfectly possible scientifically

God could exist AND be deceptive & hostile

the latter does not preclude the former

...

meanwhile, Revelation 11:8 unambiguously identifies "Babylon the great city where Christ was Crucified" = 1st century Jerusalem...

yet humans on earth construe THE meaning this way and that

not God's fault

the Ottomans paid Luther and Protestants to undermine the RCC defending Europe from their invasion

why, given two choices, be invaded or unite to defend the common good (yes?), most Europeans prefer the former (read the news)...

is not something that can be attributed to the Bible as it has existed since the beginning of the Apostolic orthodox Catholic Church

Yahweh sending a clone of himself down to earth 2,000 years ago, for people to believe in later, with no later evidence, or to instead burn forever, hardly sounds like a logical solution.

not the story

all humans image God, genesis 1

God's presence still animates the Church, allegedly

And of course it is not 'fair and balanced'. The claim is that God speaks to a select few. Otherwise, God would speak to everyone whom asks equally and consistently.

if reports of meaningful intelligible messages from God in heaven to earth are true, why should God have to repeat himself over and over? God tells Moses XYZ, Moses tells the next guy... Perfectly valid means of communication

You know this because....? Before Constantine, Christianity was a cult, like others circulating. Constantine made it law, Roman law. Writings were then encouraged. This is the beginning reason why we have many manuscripts now.

Diocletian is well attested historically

everyone knows he severely persecuted the Church

 

[Erik Nelson]

Haggadic Midrash was the traditional way the Jews and early Christians told their sacred stories. They saw no lie in this whatsoever. Perhaps an example will help illustrate my point.

In Exodus 14 we read that Moses parted the waters of the Reed Sea (yes, I did not say Red Sea) to lead the Hebrew people out of Egypt. In Joshua 3, we read that Joshua parted the waters of the Jordan River to lead the Hebrew people into the promised land. Did this event actually happen exactly as described? I suspect not. Certainly the river was crossed but the "parting of the waters" has it's most important meaning as a literary device linking Joshua to Moses. God's plan was being carried forward. This midrash of the parting of waters was used again in the Old Testament in 2 Kings 2 when the waters of the Jordan were parted by both the prophet Elijah and the prophet Elisha. This midrash is carried into the New Testament in Mark 1 when at the baptism of Jesus the heavens were parted to permit the descent of the Holy Spirit and God's words of benediction. The meaning is obvious…Jesus becomes the new Moses leading his people from an old life to a new. But Jesus is also portrayed as greater than Moses. For Moses, God only parted waters, but for Jesus, the very heavens were parted. When read for meaning, the historical accuracy of the event assumes little importance. It is when we of the twenty-first century read these stories without knowing their literary background that the mistake is made of assuming that the stories are historically true exactly as written.

Please read Colin Humphreys, "the miracles of exodus". Approximately once per century or so a major earthquake. Shakes loose. Soil from the sides of the Jordan River. Causing cliffs to collapse, and temporarily dam the River.

That allows people to cross downstream of the slide on. Mostly dry land. There is a perfectly possible plausible and over large time spans probable. Explanation for Joshua's Jordan Crossing.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Here is an example of a myth that sprang up about George Washington only 62 years after his death:

FACT CHECK: George Washington's Vision

"I want to tell you an incident of Washington’s life one which no one alive knows of except myself"

That kind of secret esoteric knowledge is comparable to the claims of the Gnostics. They claimed that Jesus Christ revealed a secret esoteric knowledge to their favorite Apostle of choice.

Just as with the gnostic claims. No way to prove or disprove no way to verify.

Mainstream Christianity has viewed Gnostics Non Orthodox for 1900 years. Mainstream Christian claims were always based on numerous eyewitness accounts. Ultimately, over 500 people witnessed the risen resurrected Christ.

And multiple numerous authors wrote down essentially, the same Accounts of events

mainstream Christian authors never claimed to possess secret knowledge. Nobody else knew about. Rather, they proclaimed a gospel already widely known.

Mainstream Christians have been trying hard to weed out. Wild and spurious claims. Surrounding Christ. For 2000 years.

 

[JackRT]

Please read Colin Humphreys, "the miracles of exodus". Approximately once per century or so a major earthquake. Shakes loose. Soil from the sides of the Jordan River. Causing cliffs to collapse, and temporarily dam the River.

That allows people to cross downstream of the slide on. Mostly dry land. There is a perfectly possible plausible and over large time spans probable. Explanation for Joshua's Jordan Crossing.

The logistics problems entailed by an Exodus, as biblically described, are so formidable as to render it impossible. The bible suggests that 3 to 3.5 million people were involved. This would require 1500 tons of food daily and that would require two, mile long, freight trains daily. Who grew this food and where was it grown? That food needs to be cooked and that would require 4000 tons of wood daily to be carried by about six more mile long freight trains daily. Oh my, what about water? A conservative estimate is that 11,000,000 gallons were needed daily. To carry all this a train of tank cars 18 miles long would be required daily. The nightly camp would have to be roughly 750 square miles. Can you just imagine distributing all that food, wood and water in such a camp? For these reasons I believe that the bible account is mythological in nature. If there actually was an Exodus it must have been very much smaller --- perhaps a few hundred to a few thousand people. It also could have consisted of a number of these smaller migrations over several generations.

 

[Steve Petersen]

The logistics problems entailed by an Exodus, as biblically described, are so formidable as to render it impossible. The bible suggests that 3 to 3.5 million people were involved. This would require 1500 tons of food daily and that would require two, mile long, freight trains daily. Who grew this food and where was it grown? That food needs to be cooked and that would require 4000 tons of wood daily to be carried by about six more mile long freight trains daily. Oh my, what about water? A conservative estimate is that 11,000,000 gallons were needed daily. To carry all this a train of tank cars 18 miles long would be required daily. The nightly camp would have to be roughly 750 square miles. Can you just imagine distributing all that food, wood and water in such a camp? For these reasons I believe that the bible account is mythological in nature. If there actually was an Exodus it must have been very much smaller --- perhaps a few hundred to a few thousand people. It also could have consisted of a number of these smaller migrations over several generations.

One would also need to demonstrate that there were that there were a couple of million Hebrews living in the Nile Delta at the time they purportedly left Egypt. I have heard a theory that the word we translate as 'thousand' from the Hebrew is actually a military term that can refer to much smaller numbers.

https://thetorah.com/recounting-the-census-a-military-force-of-5500/

 

[DogmaHunter]

Probably so, it’s only human nature to do that sort of thing, but we can’t forget the Bible itself is Divinely inspired.

Why? What reason is there to think it is divinely inspired?

I understand what you’re saying, but it’s well-known that details regarding accounts of events differ. If they are from different perspectives it doesn’t necessarily make one right and one wrong, especially if the overall consensus is the same.

Ever heared of the telephone game?
The original story that kickstarts it, does not need to be true either.

 

[DogmaHunter]

It was quite a task the writers had I think - on the one hand trying to summarise and make sense of Jesus’ 3 years of public teaching, and clarify what they understood to be the most important of them, and also to paint a picture of Jesus’ character and their own fumbling attempts to follow him, and on the other trying to recall or discover small details as authentically as they could. Quite a task! I do think the gospels have ‘personality’ though, and any later revisions or additions don’t take much away from that, I think.

I'ld expect that an all powerfull god who supposedly divinely inspired these people, to be able to do it in such a way that they manage to nail the message he wishes to communicate perfectly - without any contradictions.

I mean, how else with "mere inspiration" differ from "divine inspiration"?

 

[DogmaHunter]

His is regarded as 'The Greatest Story Ever Told.'

Sounds subjective.
But more importantly, a story is just a story. It can be a good story. But it's a story.

 

[DogmaHunter]

No, I didn't miss your point. There's a difference. Jesus' contemporaries would know if His story was a lie and I don't think they would have been willing to die for it.

Jonestown - Wikipedia
Jim Jones - Wikipedia

So I guess then that when Jones also began preaching that he was the reincarnation of Gandhi, Father Divine, Jesus, Gautama Buddha, and Vladimir Lenin, he was likely speaking the truth? After all, so many people died simply because the dude asked. In person. So they were eye-witnesses.

And that is in this day and age.
While you are talking about 2000 years ago, in a world where superstition was deeply rooted in society and religious beliefs dominated public life.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Jesus of history and myth.

Myth wins if sheer numbers alone mattered - more myth-believers than Jesus-followers.

But only Jesus-followers, born again, get to heaven. A pure heart is needed.

Does that matter to anyone ?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Why would anyone have followed Jesus if they didn't think he was the Messianic fulfillment of those ancient prophecies...

For the same reason that fortune tellers, psychics, tarrot readers and astrologists can make a lot of money.


I don't doubt the beliefs of people. Obviously those who kickstarted the religion, believe it sincerely.

Many people believe a lot of things sincerely, while being wrong.

 

[DogmaHunter]

If you do not believe the Bible, you would not believe anything else presented anyway.

I think @cvanwey 's whole point, is exactly that there is nothing else.

I'ld agree with that. Which is precisely the reason why there is no reason to believe the bible. Which is just a book containing a story. Some people call it the greatest story ever. I personally think it's rather horrible. But neither makes the story true or false.

Horrible stories can also be true.
But you need something more then just the story to demonstrate it to be true.
You're now basically saying "there is just the story, you just have to believe it".
Well... sorry, I don't. There's lots of stories I could believe in for no particular reason. I just don't see the point.

So it is on you, an unbeliever and questioner, to provide credible period sources that contradict it, or it is you that has the groundless argument.

One of the most blatant shifts of the burden of proof I've ever seen.
And that even after you just said that you have nothing but bare religious claims.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Jesus of history and myth.

Myth wins if sheer numbers alone mattered - more myth-believers than Jesus-followers.

But only Jesus-followers, born again, get to heaven. A pure heart is needed.

Does that matter to anyone ?

It only matters in the heads of those who believe that.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It only matters in the heads of those who believe that.

Until judgment day.

And until then - righteousness peace and joy unspeakable and full of glory
for those who .... are given righteousness peace and joy AND salvation forever in Jesus.

So , daily, today, it matters positively for the few elect , the remnant. and negatively for everyone else. Same later.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Until judgment day.

And until then - righteousness peace and joy unspeakable and full of glory
for those who .... are given righteousness peace and joy AND salvation forever in Jesus.

So , daily, today, it matters positively for the few elect , the remnant. and negatively for everyone else. Same later.

Uhu, uhu.

Cool story, bro

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Uhu, uhu.

Cool story, bro

Only believe !

Father God ! Help Thou our unbelief !

 

[DogmaHunter]

Only believe !

Father God ! Help Thou our unbelief !

I require reasons to believe something.

 

[Tom 1]

I'ld expect that an all powerfull god who supposedly divinely inspired these people, to be able to do it in such a way that they manage to nail the message he wishes to communicate perfectly - without any contradictions.

I mean, how else with "mere inspiration" differ from "divine inspiration"?

Maybe you expect that - but what bearing does what you or I expect have on it? That presumes we understand something that we clearly don’t. The bible has an internal consistency, it was put together using the techniques available at the time. There are a great many works examining it from a historical, literary, faith etc perspective that all add to the overall picture. The ‘it had something to do with God therefore it should meet some arbitrary standard’ notion doesn’t add much to that. And our notions about what it should be like are arbitrary - they don’t mean anything.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Jonestown - Wikipedia
Jim Jones - Wikipedia

So I guess then that when Jones also began preaching that he was the reincarnation of Gandhi, Father Divine, Jesus, Gautama Buddha, and Vladimir Lenin, he was likely speaking the truth? After all, so many people died simply because the dude asked. In person. So they were eye-witnesses.

And that is in this day and age.
While you are talking about 2000 years ago, in a world where superstition was deeply rooted in society and religious beliefs dominated public life.

This is an ignorant and irresponsible comparison for you to make, DogmaHunter. It ignores all the little nasty details of contextual difference between what transpired in the psychology of the earliest Christians versus that which manifested in the foolish people who were caught up in Jones' cult. Maybe do your homework and your analytical thinking better........................................like, a whole lot better!