Jesus of History and Myth

DogmaHunter

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100% False.

You really oughta let Christians speak for themselves instead of listening to secular authorities speaking on their behalf and putting words in their mouth.

Religious belief, is belief in unfalsifiable claims.
Such belief, is by definition blind.

The whole point of the Gospel is as it has always has been for 2000 years from the first. That listeners hear and believe the testimony

Indeed. That listeners just believe the story.


Of Jesus's resurrection

Which is unfalsifiable.


Based on trusting. In the character. And Upstanding Nature. Of those who have evangelised them.

None of those properties make what they claim or believe, accurate.
And I'll point out also that believing that they had those qualities/properties, is also a matter of faith that these texts are accurate.

Ultimately, originating in the first 12 Apostles. Who claimed to be direct eye witnesses to the resurrection? And the risen Christ after the crucifixion.

Many people, claim a lot of things.
These are the claims. Are you saying that those claims are evidence of themselves?

There is nothing blind about this. eye witness testimony IS evidence in every court of law on Planet Earth.

Of the lowest quality.
People can be mistaken, lying, deceived,...

1 piece of objective evidence contradicting the testimony of 100 people, will instantly discard those 100 testimonies.


Christians believe the eye witness testimony of Matthew, Mark, Luke John Peter James Jude. Paul. And the rest.

On faith, yes.

That is believing in DIRECT EVIDENCE

No.

, admissible in every court of law on Earth.

No.

If someone in a court claims to have seen, first hand, how someone was dead and then became alive again, then no court is going to consider that enough evidence to accept that somebody dead actually became alive again.

They might accept that you really believe that that is what you saw, but they will not believe that that is ACTUALLY what you saw.

For obvious reasons.

Having said that all that...
There are thousands of people, alive today, who you can go and talk to who will tell you that they personally were abducted by aliens and had weird experiments performed on them on some space ship. They'll pass lie detector tests and everything.

So, do you believe them? Why not?


Every Court of law in the solar system. Every known physical. Court of law in the universe.

No. Instead, not a single one.

That is NOT blind faith

Yes, it is.


That is trusting faith in the character. Credibility. Sanity. Intelligence. Upstanding character. Of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and everyone else.

Yes, it's "just believing" the texts.

I guess you could say that's not believing in. Tangible PHYSICAL evidence. But it is believing in direct eyewitness. Testimony.

It's just believing in claimed eye witnesses. You also have no evidence that they were eye witnesses. You believe that. As part of your religion.

In a court when you claim to have seen a murder, the other side might question you on your whereabouts so that you can prove that you were actually in that place at that time. See in a court, you can actually QUESTION A WITNESS and corroborate his claims with objective evidence and evaluate the accuracy / likelyness of the claims with that.

You can't do anything of the sort with the claims of the bible.

And granting they were eye witnesses, it's also just believing that they weren't mistaken, deceived or lying.


Considered DIRECT EVIDENCE in every known Court of law in the Cosmos.

you should visit the website "innocense project". It's a collection of cases of people in prison set free after it was proven that they were actually innocent.

All cases I have ever seen on there, were originally wrongly convicted based on eyewitness testimony. And not just with evil intent. Just like I said: people being just mistaken, deceived or lying.

What set them free, every single time: objective evidence. It trumps "testimony" every day of the week.

Moreover, there is tangible direct geological evidence. In the sedimentary layers at the bottom of the Dead Sea. Consistent with an earthquake of 5.5 magnitude near Jerusalem in thirty three AD.At exactly the traditionally accepted date of the crucifixion. That actually is hard physical tangible evidence. Corroborating Christian claims.

Someone else already addressed this nonsense apologetic.
 
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DogmaHunter

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This is only because of our modern view of the word.

If you say so. Don't see how it's relevant how it was understood before (apparantly).

In any case, our view of the word makes that distinction, because we understand that there actually is a distinction.


I do not discount that there are people with blind irrational "faith", but when the Hebrew and Christian testaments speak of "faith" it means trust. I have a book by the Jesus Seminar fellows that mentions it.

I don't care who says what about it.

Belief in unfalsifiable claims (which is the case for religions claims), is blind.

Religion requires (blind) faith precisely because the core doctrines, are unfalsifiable extra-ordinary claims.
 
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Starcomet

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If you say so. Don't see how it's relevant how it was understood before (apparantly).

In any case, our view of the word makes that distinction, because we understand that there actually is a distinction.

But we cannot place our modern views or thoughts on words on an ancient/late antiquity work. In that time, trust was trust, there was nothing special about trusting a person or trusting God in that time.


I don't care who says what about it.

Belief in unfalsifiable claims (which is the case for religions claims), is blind.

Religion requires (blind) faith precisely because the core doctrines, are unfalsifiable extra-ordinary claims.

I never disagreed with you that blind faith/trust certainly does exist.
 
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cvanwey

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Apples and oranges.

By your analogy to modern New York. The Gospels mention. Mayor Rudy Giuliani. President Bush. And other major figures. Of historical attestation.

The Joe Schmoes are not typically named in the gospel. Those who are Kings and Procurator's and prefects and priests. And. Rulers and mayors and governors and so on. 53 of those have been confirmed for OLD TESTAMENT time.

And qualitatively similar for New Testament times. Although I don't have access. To that print article behind a paywall

It's not apples and oranges sir...

Let's use another analogy. One which seems to crop up quite often in such discussions... Alexander the Great.

How many accounts do we have, how much proof do we have about his accomplishments, and/or of his sheer existence? Whether it is less or more than the existence of Jesus, we must then ask...

Is Alexander really the son of Zeus?
Is Jesus really the son of Yahweh?

YOU are making a case for mundane and physical stuff. I'm NOT contesting ANY of that :)

I'm addressing SUPERNATURAL claims. ONE OFF claims. Claims which defy all other every day 'Joe Schmoe' claims.
 
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cvanwey

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Yes, we've been over this many times already.

Complementary not contradictory.

That's why Christians have kept the 4 separate gospel accounts around. Because each of those, 4 offers complimentary not contradictory. Additional details about events important to the Christian faith.

Yes, And yet you are still not addressing my points... Read below.

The Gospels do not claim direct divine authorship in the way you are suggesting. Unlike passages from the Hebrew Old Testament. None of the New Testament writings. Use the stock phrase, "thus Sayeth The Lord"

You're not accurately representing the Christian notion of the inspiration, alleged, of the gospels.

In the NEW TESTAMENT, not OLD TESTAMENT, we see the following verses:

2 Timothy 3:16, then read Proverbs 30:5, and then read 2 Peter 1:19-24

I'm sure you can counter with other verses, in an attempt to dispute my observations. And you may have some 'valid' points.

However:

You, as an apologist, can 'spin' any and all of these verses, any way you like; and tell me I'm INTERPRETING them incorrectly. And if it was just me, (the skeptic, scoffer, doubter), you MAY have some type of starting point, at least, to merely begin. HOWEVER, MANY Evangelicals agree with ME, that ALL scripture is claimed PERFECT. So you then must demonstrate THEIR FAILURE as well, in THEIR earnest interpretive failure, and not just MINE :)


God corrects NONE of this.... God watches as people fight, kill, go to war, disown family members, etc., over honest disagreement of what the WORD is supposed to say. And yet, God is 'good'?

(On a side note: as it stands, this is the reason we have about half of the Christians who think the world is <10K years old, for starters, and ignore later basic human discovery. Such individuals ignore anything and everything which disputes claims of the Bible. They cannot be reconciled with...)


But as for the secret telepathic communication as proof of. Supernatural intervention into human history that you demand. The Gospels already allege exactly such an event.

The Gospels are widely known to allege. That. The Wise men and the Holy Family received secret telepathic warning of. Herods. Plans to massacre all of the babies under 2 years old in Bethlehem. Telepathically warned, They trusted the voices they heard, fled the jurisdiction and survived the massacre.

You have completely avoided my point, again.

The Bible offers nothing forward thinking. The Bible was written on the same type of material all other writings were written upon, at the time. It would be MUCH more difficult to scoff or doubt such claims, if they mentioned a few things which weren't already claimed at this time period, on media which had yet to exist. Us skeptics today would have much less of a 'leg to stand on'.


For example, today, we look at 'Stonehenge' and marvel and wonder how such a structure could have been 'created' at such a time in history. People also argue over the Egyptian pyramids. Just think if you had people from China, people from Japan, people from Uruguay, people from Brazil, people from Australia, ALL whom have left behind examples of writings, encased in carbon fiber, which speak about stuff not yet discovered by humans at the time, in which humans THEN used to develop 'better' societies. Books which left behind instruction to build technology or provide the basic cures in medicine we take for granted in society today.

*** Us scoffers would have very little to question, argue, or debate. It would then prove that at least there existed some extremely intelligent magical figure. ***

And yes, we may still question if such a figure was the REAL DEAL. But we would not be able to question the supernatural, and at least some of it's claims. Why, because we would have evidence and testimony, from OTHER NATIONS, whom carry absolutely NO bias. We would have PRESERVED copies to look at.

But instead, we have writings from a bias church. ** Sigh ***
 
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Erik Nelson

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The Bible offers nothing forward thinking. The Bible was written on the same type of material all other writings were written upon, at the time. It would be MUCH more difficult to scoff or doubt such claims, if they mentioned a few things which weren't already claimed at this time period, on media which had yet to exist. Us skeptics today would have much less of a 'leg to stand on'.

For example, today, we look at 'Stonehenge' and marvel and wonder how such a structure could have been 'created' at such a time in history. People also argue over the Egyptian pyramids. Just think if you had people from China, people from Japan, people from Uruguay, people from Brazil, people from Australia, ALL whom have left behind examples of writings, encased in carbon fiber, which speak about stuff not yet discovered by humans at the time, in which humans THEN used to develop 'better' societies. Books which left behind instruction to build technology or provide the basic cures in medicine we take for granted in society today.

*** Us scoffers would have very little to question, argue, or debate. It would then prove that at least there existed some extremely intelligent magical figure. ***

And yes, we may still question if such a figure was the REAL DEAL. But we would not be able to question the supernatural, and at least some of it's claims. Why, because we would have evidence and testimony, from OTHER NATIONS, whom carry absolutely NO bias. We would have PRESERVED copies to look at.

But instead, we have writings from a bias church. ** Sigh ***
The Christian Bible ended gladiatorial bloodsports. And inhumane punishments widespread throughout the Pagan Roman Empire. That's pretty forward thinking

you have a better idea? You have a Time Machine too, you can use to go back 2000 years into the Pagan Roman Empire and do better?
 
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Erik Nelson

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Religious belief, is belief in unfalsifiable claims.
Such belief, is by definition blind.
No, that's not what the English word blind as in blind faith means. Blind faith means what it has always meant. Trusting belief and faith on zero evidence.

Maybe you could say religious belief is based on flimsy or slim or under physically substantiated evidence. But it is not blind faith.

No moving goal posts or twisting the dictionary definitions of. English words. Please



Indeed. That listeners just believe the story.
They believe the testimony of the eye witnesses. They feel that eye witnesses. Are credible? And trustworthy and so they choose to believe them.




None of those properties make what they claim or believe, accurate.
Well, they certainly don't make them automatically wrong for free either


And I'll point out also that believing that they had those qualities/properties, is also a matter of faith that these texts are accurate.
The New Testament writings are they tested and verified. Well into the second century AD long, long before the Council of Nicaea and the codification of the Christian Canon officially.







Of the lowest quality.
People can be mistaken, lying, deceived,...

1 piece of objective evidence contradicting the testimony of 100 people, will instantly discard those 100 testimonies.
So give us your hard tangible physical evidence disproving out right the miraculous events of the gospel.






If someone in a court claims to have seen, first hand, how someone was dead and then became alive again, then no court is going to consider that enough evidence to accept that somebody dead actually became alive again.

They might accept that you really believe that that is what you saw, but they will not believe that that is ACTUALLY what you saw.
1 Corinthians 15

500 people who saw Jesus nailed to the cross saw Jesus alive a few days after the crucifixion event Most of them were still alive when Paul wrote his letter.

They all lied they all got together and said "Hey. Let's make up a story. Let's pretend that Jesus survived the crucifixion?"

Cart before the Horse -- Nobody would be so adamant in promoting Jesus' cause. Unless they ALREADY thought that he was the Messiah. And the only way a poor peasant worker could have been. Perceived as the Messiah was buy some set of miraculous Extraordinary. Even paranormal events. Which people interpreted as gods favor

over 500 people saw someone fitting Jesus' description nailed to a cross And 3 days later, they saw someone fitting Jesus' description alive and well. If you really absolutely insist on being sceptical to the point of being conspiratorial. You can do so without impugning the integrity of the gospel eyewitness accounts -- They were sure they saw him nailed to a cross and then they were transformed by the surprise of seeing him still alive 3 days later. There are ways of accounting for that information that don't involve Shadowy mystery figures. Who forged the entire New Testament and then by the power of their forgeries Fake Fiction. writings suddenly jump started a religion in the name of some made up person who never existed historically.




Yes, it's "just believing" the texts
It's just believing in claimed eye witnesses.
They seem like credible witnesses. They seem believable. Many people believe them.


You also have no evidence that they were eye witnesses. You believe that. As part of your religion.
There is zero reason to doubt that they were eyewitnesses. The Gospels read like eyewitness testimony.

You're hyper scepticism would toss out every classical Historian. Now we have no idea what ever happened in human history. In fact, you just ELIMINATED human history because you just cast aspersions of doubt on every single ancient document.

History is defined as the presence of written document recording happenings of the Age, by your hyper scepticism, we are still in PRE history Since we can't verify anything about anything, can't trust anyone about anything or anyone either.

Other than their reports of paranormal phenomena There are no other red flags or indicators or giveaways of Deception.


In a court when you claim to have seen a murder, the other side might question you on your whereabouts so that you can prove that you were actually in that place at that time. See in a court, you can actually QUESTION A WITNESS and corroborate his claims with objective evidence and evaluate the accuracy / likelyness of the claims with that.

You can't do anything of the sort with the claims of the bible..
Can A Witness Be Trusted If He Can't Be Cross-Examined? | Cold Case Christianity

And granting they were eye witnesses, it's also just believing that they weren't mistaken, deceived or lying..
That's the trusting believing faith part,



What set them free, every single time: objective evidence. It trumps "testimony" every day of the week
So give us your hard tangible physical evidence disproving the occurrence of any of the miraculous events reported in the gospels.

if you can't do that on this 2000 year cold case. Then this is not really relevant here.

I understand you would prefer physical evidence to my witness. Testimony. But we can't do that.

So we're back to the "Matthew was a nice guy, he gave his life. For Charity Humanity. Social justice. Seems like a nice guy, so I trust him and what he says."
 
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Steve Petersen

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'Mythological cosmologies, it now must be recognized, do not correspond to the world of gross facts but are functions of dream and vision; and therefore, the meanings (if any) inherent in or implied by the propositions of theology and metaphysics are not to be sought at the end of either the microscope or the telescope. They are not verifiable through any science of physical research but belong, rather, to the science of the psyche - and here, as we know, considerable progress has already been made toward a reconstruction of our understanding of their terms.

Indeed, for some, this ancient lore, now interpreted psychologically instead of cosmologically, has actually seemed to restore the old religions to their former place both in the center and around the bounding horizon of the sphere of the human spirit, as representing not merely a passing phase in the history of the evolution of consciousness but a permanent spiritual legacy, symbolic of the very structure of the psyche.' - Joseph Campbell
 
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cvanwey

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The Christian Bible ended gladiatorial bloodsports. And inhumane punishments widespread throughout the Pagan Roman Empire. That's pretty forward thinking

you have a better idea? You have a Time Machine too, you can use to go back 2000 years into the Pagan Roman Empire and do better?

This response addresses absolutely nothing in which I brought forth :/ Let me reiterate, yet again. Please actually address my points this time, if you should happen to respond.

- Multiple nations (Asia, Africa, the Americas, etc...) would all report of receiving a carbon fiber covered book from a floating claimed God, (which was preserved to this day), which is also filled with instruction for medicine breakthroughs, and/or innovation/technologies to advance society, which was certainly not conceptualized at the time. Jesus would spread His word to the world, NOT JUST the area in which He resided ;)


- No physical traces were left behind to investigate later, for future skeptics to address/question, like we have with Stonehenge or the pyramids for example.

- All we have are later writings from bias source locations (i.e.) theocracy/church.

- God allows thousands of years of infighting, even between believers; and offers no clarification from the later provided bias human writings. Instead, God apparently sets back and watches billions of humans fight, go to war, kill, alienate, oppress, and even disown their own family members over EARNEST MISINTERPRETATION. Hardly seems 'good.'

- God allows humans to write stuff to paper in a way, where half of it's believers ignore later human discovery (medicine/science/etc), or refuse later human discovery, which would actually have saved their life, or saved their loved one's life from a life threatening disease or tragedy. And instead, many believers favor their own interpretation of the writings of the Bible and ignore the beneficial human discovery.

- In several places, the Bible states it is ALL from God (2 Timothy 3:16, Proverbs 30:5, 2 Peter 1:19-21), which would mean speaking about alternate human points of view would instead indicate we are to adhere to human perspective, and not the claimed unified God perspective.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Multiple nations (Asia, Africa, the Americas, etc...) would all report of receiving a carbon fiber covered book from a floating claimed God,
I sincerely hope that someday sooner than later You come to realize that your conception of Christianity in your head has nothing to do whatsoever with the historical reality of Christianity on earth over the past 2000 years.

Total straw man.

Real life Christianity is not Eric von Daniken "Chariots of the gods" ancient aliens ancient astronauts theory

the claim is not that alien artifacts have ever appeared on Earth

The claim is that Super Intelligent God like beings in the heavens have COMMUNICATED to humans on Earth Sporadically, but consistently For thousands and thousands of years.

(which was preserved to this day), which is also filled with instruction for medicine breakthroughs, and/or innovation/technologies to advance society, which was certainly not conceptualized at the time.
Super Intelligent God like beings in the heavens help us with our science homework?

However, incredible it may be that Super Intelligent God, like beings in the heavens communicate to earthlings. So much more is it that they would communicate scientifically. Helpful homework advice...

But actually Christianity is even more remarkable than that! More important then help with our science and math homework is help with our social sociology homework. Christianity ended the brutalities of the Pagan Roman Empire

Nothing else did. Not. Greek philosophy and Early Greek. Science and mathematics. Only Christianity So Christianity was more socially forward thinking then anything else on Earth at the time. It was more socially Humane and just then anything else on Earth at the time. Even anything that the famed Greeks for all of their philosophical. Sophistry and intelligence ever came up with on their human own.

How on earth can Christianity not be socially forward thinking When it was the only force that stopped the brutalities of the Pagan Roman Empire?



Jesus would spread His word to the world, NOT JUST the area in which He resided ;)
What planet is this?


Jesus spread the gospel through his Apostles and their disciples To the ends of the known world? By the end of the first century. Christian outposts had cropped up. From Britain to India and beyond.

Today, everyone on Earth knows of the gospel and the Bible is the most printed book in human history

Please acknowledge what's been happening on this planet over the past 2 millennia??

- No physical traces were left behind to investigate later, for future skeptics to address/question, like we have with Stonehenge or the pyramids for example.
Again, this is not ancient astronaut theory The only tangible physical evidence there is. Is geologic evidence in the sedimentary layers at the bottom of the dead sea consistent with a magnitude 5.5 earthquake near Jerusalem in 33. AD

there is archaeological evidence of earthquakes, having damaged Cities and towns in ancient times. Consistent with the reports of Christians who interpreted the earthquakes. In religious terms. As having been triggered or induced by God in heaven intervening. Into Earth history.




- All we have are later writings from bias source locations (i.e.) theocracy/church.
Well, you seem to gravitate towards people like Bruce Metzger and Bart Ehrman, Who Very arguably have an obvious anti bias a reverse bias. Which has rubbed off on you also?


- God allows thousands of years of infighting, even between believers; and offers no clarification from the later provided bias human writings. Instead, God apparently sets back and watches billions of humans fight, go to war, kill, alienate, oppress, and even disown their own family members over EARNEST MISINTERPRETATION. Hardly seems 'good.'
Jesus clearly stated Love Thy neighbor as thyself Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I don't know how much clearer it could get. One simple idea stated a couple of ways in a couple of short simple easy to understand sentences.


- God allows humans to write stuff to paper in a way, where half of it's believers ignore later human discovery (medicine/science/etc), or refuse later human discovery, which would actually have saved their life, or saved their loved one's life from a life threatening disease or tragedy. And instead, many believers favor their own interpretation of the writings of the Bible and ignore the beneficial human discovery.
Jesus said Don't. mock someone else for having a splinter in their eye. When you have a tree log in your own. Elsewhere, he said let him who with who is without sin cast the first stone.

Everyone knows that people use science to undermine religion, Scientists oppose religion. They wield science as a weapon to undermine. Christian society and its social values.

Christians react defensively, maybe even today, someone offensively In retaliation.

If scientists were more humble Stuck to their jobs. And noted How we can understand much of reality with natural law? WITHOUT taking the unnecessary extra step. Of extrapolating beyond what is known and trying to preemptively rule out the existence of Super Intelligent God like beings in the heavens...

Then, nobody would be having this argument

Bruno and Galileo reasoning and experimenting on Earth do not disprove the existence of Super Intelligent God like beings in the heavens Nor that humans on Earth should take them very seriously.

Bruno reasoned spectacularly That the existence of planets orbiting our son implied the existence of unseen planets orbiting all of the distance stars in the sky. Galileo proved the concept by building a telescope and observing the moons of Jupiter, orbiting around. Another body besides the sun.

Then seriously no joke Bruno made the astounding additional conclusion. That, he himself was a reincarnated alien spirit from one of his speculated exo planets! And. So claiming He denigrated the Christian worldview. Which he wanted to replace with his own metaphysics

if Bruno Galileo and scientists stuck to their jobs without meddling in politics We wouldn't be having this debate. Bruno ran afoul of the Christian authorities not for saying the word "exoplanets" But for saying the words "he was a reincarnated alien. FROM one of those exoplanets" Which he claimed "proved" transmigration of souls and disproved Christianity

For 500 years. Scientists have been using science As a fulcrum. To obtain leverage AGAINST Christendom.

Sticking solely to the facts without making wild Speculations and Accusations against Christianity and we wouldn't be having this debate.

I like cosmology Bruno was my hero until I read the whole story. I invite you to do the same Bruno said he was a reincarnated alien from one of his speculated exo planets. Which he technically never proved existed in the 1st place

his reasoning was simple and sound and Should and hopefully would have been taken seriously? Had he stopped talking at that point.

But he did try to leverage exoplanets against the church... "Because science and exo planets, therefore no Christendom" I do wish such illogical non Sequiturs would stop







- In several places, the Bible states it is ALL from God (2 Timothy 3:16, Proverbs 30:5, 2 Peter 1:19-21), which would mean speaking about alternate human points of view would instead indicate we are to adhere to human perspective, and not the claimed unified God perspective.
That the scripture inside the covers of the Bible is from God does not automatically on imply that the preacher who holds up the book. Is speaking from God also, yes?

2000 years ago, Saint Peter told Christians.

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience
1 Peter 3:15 to 16

insofar as that doesn't always happen in these kinds of debates. Then none of us are doing what St Peter told us. When supposedly inspired by God in heaven. Even here, even me.

Maybe we say with our mouths. We acknowledge is Saint Peters Authority, but then we don't. Practice what we preach.

You can't blame someone who says do X. For someone else. Who does Y

after? The night before the crucifixion. Saint Peter never raised a weapon. Or even an unarmed fist. Against ANY human being on Earth. In the solar system in the Galaxy in the universe.

That's what he said, and did and lived and was martyred. If somebody else does differently, maybe look to them not to Saint Peter?

But let no one on Earth say they feel threatened by Saint Peter. Or that. Saint Peter HIMSELF tried to pick a fight with them or their ancestors.'cause it didn't happen.
 
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cvanwey

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I sincerely hope that someday sooner than later You come to realize that your conception of Christianity in your head has nothing to do whatsoever with the historical reality of Christianity on earth over the past 2000 years.

Total straw man.

Real life Christianity is not Eric von Daniken "Chariots of the gods" ancient aliens ancient astronauts theory

the claim is not that alien artifacts have ever appeared on Earth

The claim is that Super Intelligent God like beings in the heavens have COMMUNICATED to humans on Earth Sporadically, but consistently For thousands and thousands of years.


I was hoping you would actually read a little between the lines. Something I though apologists were experts in, regarding interpreting writing :)

My point is simple, so let me clarify a bit further.

Truth is universal. Seems as though God would convey His message to the globe. Not just one designated region, where the writers were already believers. Seems as though God would do so in a way that all nations would report of having such divine text in their position. Seems as though if God wanted to convey CLEAR messages, God would also do it HIMSELF; and NOT rely upon humans to apparently convolute the messages in their own interpretive texts.

Just think how power and convincing such a concept would be, if we had in our possession, writings on media not yet conceived upon. And writings which convey instruction which was not yet known. Also, reports from nations across the globe having in their possession, the exact same media and writings. Scoffers would have great pause. It would be extremely TOUGH to explain such a concept of an Asian culture, for instance, reporting in their position, ancient writings, on futuristic media, explaining technologies and concepts not yet known at this time period, and claiming they came from a character named Yahweh/Jesus, and also having contemporaneous reports - (NOT BIAS reports exclusively).

But instead, the closet thing we have is later writings, from bias source locations, expressing vague prophecy, and unfounded stories. NO DIFFERENT than what has already been done prior and since.

Nothing new. Nothing which had not already been done and claims prior and since.
Super Intelligent God like beings in the heavens help us with our science homework?

However, incredible it may be that Super Intelligent God, like beings in the heavens communicate to earthlings. So much more is it that they would communicate scientifically. Helpful homework advice...

But actually Christianity is even more remarkable than that! More important then help with our science and math homework is help with our social sociology homework. Christianity ended the brutalities of the Pagan Roman Empire

Nothing else did. Not. Greek philosophy and Early Greek. Science and mathematics. Only Christianity So Christianity was more socially forward thinking then anything else on Earth at the time. It was more socially Humane and just then anything else on Earth at the time. Even anything that the famed Greeks for all of their philosophical. Sophistry and intelligence ever came up with on their human own.
How on earth can Christianity not be socially forward thinking When it was the only force that stopped the brutalities of the Pagan Roman Empire?


Maybe we are not reading the same book? Doesn't 'God' sanction war, allow rape, and condone slavery. But yea, the Roman Empire later fell, and lets give all the credit to the Bible somehow ;)

What planet is this?

Jesus spread the gospel through his Apostles and their disciples To the ends of the known world? By the end of the first century. Christian outposts had cropped up. From Britain to India and beyond.

Today, everyone on Earth knows of the gospel and the Bible is the most printed book in human history
Please acknowledge what's been happening on this planet over the past 2 millennia??


You have missed my point (again).

The Roman empire ruled the roost. Constantine legalized this religion. Scribes then wrote droves of scrolls.

MY point is that we might instead see evidence demonstrating divine authorship. One way would be to see, as stated above, content on media not yet known, and reported from locations which were not already believing in such, from nations far away (all over the planet). Reporting of such would cause skeptics to think seriously about such assertions and claims. Not to instead easily dismiss them, like they also do the Holy Qur'an, and other claims, for the very same reasons.

Again, this is not ancient astronaut theory The only tangible physical evidence there is. Is geologic evidence in the sedimentary layers at the bottom of the dead sea consistent with a magnitude 5.5 earthquake near Jerusalem in 33. AD
there is archaeological evidence of earthquakes, having damaged Cities and towns in ancient times. Consistent with the reports of Christians who interpreted the earthquakes. In religious terms. As having been triggered or induced by God in heaven intervening. Into Earth history.


Again, we are referring to the supernatural. WHERE is the reports of the walking dead from non bias sources????? Yes, this was also reported in the very same breath as the earthquake ;) If many saw as such, why did no one report as such????? They mention earthquakes, but somehow, the walking dead was just too mundane to mention?????

Matthew 27:50-53 New International Version (NIV)

50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.


51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection anda]">[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.




Well, you seem to gravitate towards people like Bruce Metzger and Bart Ehrman, Who Very arguably have an obvious anti bias a reverse bias. Which has rubbed off on you also?

No such luck... The entire book was written by the bias of the theocracy/church.


Jesus clearly stated Love Thy neighbor as thyself Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I don't know how much clearer it could get. One simple idea stated a couple of ways in a couple of short simple easy to understand sentences.

So did Confucius, hundreds of years prior. What's your point?

Much of the Bible presents confusion. Some interpret one thing, while others interpret another; for many passages. Even among believers. In many cases, we then see infighting, oppression, denouncing of family, etc... And this is, again, among the ones whom actually believe. God sets back and watches the madness. Not 'good'.

Jesus said Don't. mock someone else for having a splinter in their eye. When you have a tree log in your own. Elsewhere, he said let him who with who is without sin cast the first stone.

Nice cherry picking. I can do that too. God also condones slavery, demonstrates the inferiority of women to men, somehow seems 'a okay' with a rapist possibly marrying their victim, etc...
 
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Erik Nelson

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Truth is universal. Seems as though God would convey His message to the globe.
Most of the population of Eurasia and North Africa had heard the gospel by the end of the first century. AD.

Today, the whole entire globe is well aware of the gospel.

QED.


Seems as though if God wanted to convey CLEAR messages, God would also do it HIMSELF; and NOT rely upon humans to apparently convolute the messages in their own interpretive texts.
According to Christian Scriptures. God will eventually ultimately physically ARRIVE at Earth. At the end of earth time. Revelation 20:9

Until then, human awareness of God in heaven. Has been all the result of informational communication And CONTACT. Without physical arrival.

So apparently according to you. SETI. Could never find proof of extraterrestrials? Until after the very same extraterrestrials sent physical material space probes into our solar system. But the whole point of Seth Shostack and SETI is that it's always easier cheaper and faster to send electromagnetic radiation and communicate. CONTACT is easier cheaper and quicker. Than ARRIVAL and Visitation.

The Bible alleges the exact same order of events. Communication CONTACT from the days of Adam until today over the past approximately 8000 years. And some time, biblically soon actual factual physical ARRIVAL.

If you don't fault Seth Shostack and SETI for their claims - CONTACT BEFORE ARRIVAL So listen for contact - why fault the Bible when it makes the exact same claims?


Just think how power and convincing such a concept would be, if we had in our possession, writings on media not yet conceived upon. And writings which convey instruction which was not yet known.
That will all occur. At Judgment Day. At the end of earth time. When fire from heaven scours the planet. Revelation 20:9.

Until. Physical ARRIVAL. It's all communicative CONTACT. Just like SETI says would happen.






Maybe we are not reading the same book? Doesn't 'God' sanction war, allow rape, and condone slavery. But yea, the Roman Empire later fell, and lets give all the credit to the Bible somehow ;)
The fall of the Roman Empire. In the fifth century. Is not what ended the brutalities of Pagan re? The conversion to Christianity. Introduced. Humanity and compassion into society in the fourth century


Moreover. We are not reading the same book. At least not the same section. All of the references which you could construe as condoning. Violence and brutality. All reside in the Old Testament. The front of the book. That Old Covenant was fulfilled and DONE AWAY WITH by Christ. That was the whole issue of contention between early Christians and their Jewish roots from which they emerged. That's why the Jews stoned Saint Paul. And so on.

Christianity is based on the brand spanking NEW Testament and Covenant.

No Jesus did not condone rape violence war

every human on this globe. Is aware of the gospel? Most of them have copies of it and not one of those copies has Jesus condoning. The violence from the Old Covenant. He fulfilled abolished and did away with.

As you quote The New Testament below. That obviously includes you. Where in the New Testament does Jesus Christ condone the violence is you speak of. If it's not in the brand spanking NEW Covenant is not part of Christianity.




One way would be to see, as stated above, content on media not yet known, and reported from locations which were not already believing in such
Christianity is not ancient astronauts theory
Please lobby Congress to defund SETI on the grounds that Seth Shostack made an error in presuming that communicative CONTACT would plausibly Predate. Physical ARRIVAL and Visitation.

But if you don't mind your tax dollars supporting SETI and "CONTACT BEFORE ARRIVAL", then don't knock the Bible either

for all, I know communicating from God in heaven to humans on Earth is extremely expensive I guess maybe God in Heaven wanted to Economize. God communicated his gospel to one point of contact on Earth. And ordered that it be disseminated around this world from that time on all at human expense.

God outsourced the final street level retail distribution of the gospel from its original point of contact. Namely, Jesus and his apostles. in first century Judea

so god is a penny pincher... Still got the job done All 7,000,000,000 people of this planet are aware of the gospel.

Allegedly That was to happen before. Physical arrival would occur. So now maybe the new Jerusalem Borg Cube will arrive With all of the fancy new ultra high tech materials you demand for your "alien astronauts" requirements

Meanwhile, please remember to lobby Congress to defund SETI on the grounds that it's mantra of communication and "CONTACT BEFORE ARRIVAL" is bogus


, from nations far away (all over the planet). Reporting of such would cause skeptics to think seriously about such assertions and claims. Not to instead easily dismiss them, like they also do the Holy Qur'an, and other claims, for the very same reasons.
As skeptics and atheists have themselves joked out of their own mouths. Even if God. Wrote. Of God's existence in earth skies in. Some sort of astronomical neon sign. The skeptics in a theists on the other side of the planet not having seen it with their own eyes would continue to deny God's existence.



Again, we are referring to the supernatural. WHERE is the reports of the walking dead from non bias sources?????
Like whom The only people to witness the alleged event. Were Jews in Jerusalem? At the time. The darkness that fell over the whole Roman Empire. Numerous other secular sources noted and tried to explain. Earthquakes around the region across the eastern Mediterranean basin. Other secular authors wrote about because other populations of people experienced them. As for the reason? Resurrected Saints. At the time of the crucifixion. That was completely local. The only people who saw that were the Jews and a couple Roman soldiers.

Because they witnessed the event, they all became Christians. But being Christians you now label them all biased. You're imposing a catch 22. You require a person who witnesses a miracle testifying to the messiahship of Jesus. But then, who rejects Jesus as Messiah and remains non Christian.


They mention earthquakes, but somehow, the walking dead was just too mundane to mention?????
They wrote about what they EXPERIENCED FIRST HAND. Just like Matthew. He wrote about what he witnessed first hand. Supposedly anyway.


Empire wide and region wide. Events were observed and discussed by secular sources. Not entirely reasonable. To require from scant fragmentary evidence available. That secular sources would have discussed events they were thousands of miles away from. And never witnessed.


Matthew 27:50-53 New International Version (NIV)
None of this condones rape or other violence,




Nice cherry picking. I can do that too. God also condones slavery, demonstrates the inferiority of women to men, somehow seems 'a okay' with a rapist possibly marrying their victim, etc...
That's why Christians prefer the brand spanking NEW second edition. Revised and updated. It's more socially progressive and moved beyond all of that .
 
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Erik Nelson

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'Mythological cosmologies, it now must be recognized, do not correspond to the world of gross facts but are functions of dream and vision;
that is the religious experience, yes Allegedly. God in heaven. Communicates to humans on Earth. Telepathically Psychically. through. dreams and visions. Which God in heaven allegedly induces in the minds of the contactees so as to communicate meaningful intelligible messages from heaven to Earth

belong, rather, to the science of the psyche - ...Indeed, for some, this ancient lore, now interpreted psychologically
The alleged communications from Heaven to Earth occur. In the minds in the psyches. Of contactees (Priests and prophets and such).

According to your quote Joseph Campbell. Acknowledges. That's human psychology still has far to go before it understands this issue. Thus, it is premature to presume. And assume That the religious experience of communicative contact from Heaven to Earth. Is in fact entirely internal, purely an artifact of the human mind...

And to deny that it might be externally induced. Externally cause. By communications from the heavens.

Human psychology cannot distinguish. "They are all imagining it" from "they're all externally caused to imagine it."

What I strongly suspect you would be want to call "hallucinations" Might possibly be in fact. Externally induced. Controlled and manipulated hallucinations. Utilized as a means of communication from Heaven to Earth.

Premature. And presumptuous. To rule out. The possibility. To exclude the possibility. Of an external causative agent. From consideration.

Ezekiel and Daniel may have been hallucinating. But God in heaven may have been causing and controlling their hallucinations. In order to? Communicate meaningful intelligible audio video information from Heaven to Earth.
 
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cvanwey

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Most of the population of Eurasia and North Africa had heard the gospel by the end of the first century. AD.

Today, the whole entire globe is well aware of the gospel.

QED.

Hey buddy. Please actually read my responses; and please do not just give the same old canned apologists responses I've seen before, which do not address my point. Please? :)

One more time...

Asia, the Americas, Africa, etc., would all have reported of receiving post resurrection contact from a divine force giving them proof, enlightenment, and testable future evidence of contact. All such locations would never have heard of Jesus, but would most certainly report such a miraculous sighting, if it happened enough. Kind of like reporting alien sightings, etc... (i.e.) Futuristic writings on futuristic media expressing futuristic innovations and health tips, written by GOD, not people at a later time whom simply pass them off as being 'provided by god'. Anyone can do that... Again, if we had global reports of such an event, from Asia, Africa, the America, in ALL of their folk lore, you then have something. Reports from non-bias locations simply reporting something weird. This would be a hard pill to swallow for skeptics. Many nations reporting consistent contact from a claimed divine agency.... But as it stands, we only have later writings from the BIAS CHURCH/Theocracy, which were already believers. SUSPECT at the very least....


Again, people write of stuff they may take no emotion upon. Global writings of seeing weird stuff, whether they believe or not, would certainly raise the eye brow of 'possible' legitimacy on SOME level at least ;)


According to Christian Scriptures. God will eventually ultimately physically ARRIVE at Earth. At the end of earth time. Revelation 20:9

Until then, human awareness of God in heaven. Has been all the result of informational communication And CONTACT. Without physical arrival.

So apparently according to you. SETI. Could never find proof of extraterrestrials? Until after the very same extraterrestrials sent physical material space probes into our solar system. But the whole point of Seth Shostack and SETI is that it's always easier cheaper and faster to send electromagnetic radiation and communicate. CONTACT is easier cheaper and quicker. Than ARRIVAL and Visitation.

The Bible alleges the exact same order of events. Communication CONTACT from the days of Adam until today over the past approximately 8000 years. And some time, biblically soon actual factual physical ARRIVAL.
If you don't fault Seth Shostack and SETI for their claims - CONTACT BEFORE ARRIVAL So listen for contact - why fault the Bible when it makes the exact same claims?

Okay, this again did not address my point in any way....

God would write text Himself, and hand it to multiple nations. All nations would have copies. Preserved copies. It would be almost impossible for anyone to refute such --> evidence <-- We would have multiple preserved examples, on media not yet used at the time - (like carbon fiber or other); expressing instruction about well being/health/technology in which no human had access to at the time. Instead, we have writings from the human perspectives, all with a differing take. It is just TOO EASY to pass them off as any other human written piece of word, like from the Holy Qur'an or other for instance...


That will all occur. At Judgment Day. At the end of earth time. When fire from heaven scours the planet. Revelation 20:9.
Until. Physical ARRIVAL. It's all communicative CONTACT. Just like SETI says would happen.

Please understand the skeptic perspective, when looking at your response....

It is VERY EASY to state something WILL happen in the future. It is NOT FALSIFIABLE. 'It's gonna happen, in God's chosen time.'

But in the mean time, we have 2K+ years of nothing. Heck, this is part of the reason no one wrote anything down initially for decades/centuries. According to the legend and lore of the day (i.e.) oral tradition, the word on the street was that Christ would return swiftly. No need to write anything for future generations :) This story was one of many, which was fairly common, (i.e.) 'being a Messiah'. It was a cult following, like others prior and since. It wasn't until Constantine came along, and scribes started to really write stuff, that we have the writings we do now.


Moreover. We are not reading the same book. At least not the same section. All of the references which you could construe as condoning. Violence and brutality. All reside in the Old Testament. The front of the book. That Old Covenant was fulfilled and DONE AWAY WITH by Christ. That was the whole issue of contention between early Christians and their Jewish roots from which they emerged. That's why the Jews stoned Saint Paul. And so on.

Christianity is based on the brand spanking NEW Testament and Covenant.

No Jesus did not condone rape violence war

every human on this globe. Is aware of the gospel? Most of them have copies of it and not one of those copies has Jesus condoning. The violence from the Old Covenant. He fulfilled abolished and did away with.

As you quote The New Testament below. That obviously includes you. Where in the New Testament does Jesus Christ condone the violence is you speak of. If it's not in the brand spanking NEW Covenant is not part of Christianity.

Another typical apologist answer...

New covenant, old covenant, doesn't matter...

The book expressed that God WAS 'a okay' with slavery, war, rape, etc... If God makes a different pact with differing people in the future, so what?.?.?.? If God ever sanctioned such events, events I'm sure YOU do not agree with, then we have a conflict. This still means God was okay with such actions at one point at least. So I guess God changed His mind. Furthermore, Jesus IS God ;) God IS Jesus. God sent a clone of Himself down to earth later, then ascended back up to heaven - (salvation/rescue). I doubt if you ascend to heaven some day, you will be greeted by two Gods (Yahweh and Jesus), will you?

And in regards to this 'new covenant', Jesus is still 'a okay' with slavery and inferiority of women in leadership --> (food for thought) :)


As skeptics and atheists have themselves joked out of their own mouths. Even if God. Wrote. Of God's existence in earth skies in. Some sort of astronomical neon sign. The skeptics in a theists on the other side of the planet not having seen it with their own eyes would continue to deny God's existence.

No. Please address what I actually said....

Asia, Africa, the Americas, etc., all report the same events in history. All have preserved copies of the same ancient text, demonstrating future knowledge in many categories. Scoffers today would be able to see this evidence left behind. Would doubt still exist, of course. Just like you thinking the earth is <10K years old most probably ;) Even though we have STACKS of evidence that the earth is much older, and evolutionary theory is sound, you still deny ;)

But instead, isn't it funny how revelation happens exclusively in the areas where the concentration of believers already reside? (i.e.) Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, etc... Yes, they all later spread out. But the story originates somewhere for ALL of them :) Hence, the reason I've heard of all the others as well; (i,e,) legend, stories, and lore spreads over time....

Like whom The only people to witness the alleged event. Were Jews in Jerusalem? At the time. The darkness that fell over the whole Roman Empire. Numerous other secular sources noted and tried to explain. Earthquakes around the region across the eastern Mediterranean basin. Other secular authors wrote about because other populations of people experienced them. As for the reason? Resurrected Saints. At the time of the crucifixion. That was completely local. The only people who saw that were the Jews and a couple Roman soldiers.
Because they witnessed the event, they all became Christians. But being Christians you now label them all biased. You're imposing a catch 22. You require a person who witnesses a miracle testifying to the messiahship of Jesus. But then, who rejects Jesus as Messiah and remains non Christian.

No. You state secular reports speak of earthquakes. And yet, such secular reports do not report the dead walking. We have one passage of such a specific event in a book. That's it. You are cherry picking. The Bible reports that the dead walked around for many to see. I would assume the purpose of such a statement was intended to persuade others that it happened. But the only way to substantiate such a claim, is to have multiple attestation of the very same event, from multiple people. And when we DON'T, then there where lies the problem ;)

You mean to tell me that there was not even one literate person, whom saw some zombies walking across them, and then not reporting, 'Um, this is weird, I was in town buying fruit, and I saw a zombie.' As stated many responses ago, if the intent was for eyewitness attestation, an no one reports it, (except for the bias writer), you might as well have performed such acts on Mars.


Your response is an assertion/assumption, that's all.


That's why Christians prefer the brand spanking NEW second edition. Revised and updated. It's more socially progressive and moved beyond all of that .

Revised? Funny. So God never sanctioned murder, rape, slavery, women's inequality in leadership, etc..?

And in your asserted 'revised' addition, God is still perfectly fine with the slavery and the women thing ;)
 
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Erik Nelson

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Hey buddy. Please actually read my responses; and please do not just give the same old canned apologists responses I've seen before, which do not address my point. Please? :)

One more time...

Asia, the Americas, Africa, etc., would all have reported of receiving post resurrection contact from a divine force giving them proof, enlightenment, and testable future evidence of contact. All such locations would never have heard of Jesus, but would most certainly report such a miraculous sighting, if it happened enough. Kind of like reporting alien sightings, etc... (i.e.) Futuristic writings on futuristic media expressing futuristic innovations and health tips, written by GOD, not people at a later time whom simply pass them off as being 'provided by god'. Anyone can do that... Again, if we had global reports of such an event, from Asia, Africa, the America, in ALL of their folk lore, you then have something. Reports from non-bias locations simply reporting something weird. This would be a hard pill to swallow for skeptics. Many nations reporting consistent contact from a claimed divine agency.... But as it stands, we only have later writings from the BIAS CHURCH/Theocracy, which were already believers. SUSPECT at the very least....


Again, people write of stuff they may take no emotion upon. Global writings of seeing weird stuff, whether they believe or not, would certainly raise the eye brow of 'possible' legitimacy on SOME level at least ;)




Okay, this again did not address my point in any way....

God would write text Himself, and hand it to multiple nations. All nations would have copies. Preserved copies. It would be almost impossible for anyone to refute such --> evidence <-- We would have multiple preserved examples, on media not yet used at the time - (like carbon fiber or other); expressing instruction about well being/health/technology in which no human had access to at the time. Instead, we have writings from the human perspectives, all with a differing take. It is just TOO EASY to pass them off as any other human written piece of word, like from the Holy Qur'an or other for instance...




Please understand the skeptic perspective, when looking at your response....

It is VERY EASY to state something WILL happen in the future. It is NOT FALSIFIABLE. 'It's gonna happen, in God's chosen time.'

But in the mean time, we have 2K+ years of nothing. Heck, this is part of the reason no one wrote anything down initially for decades/centuries. According to the legend and lore of the day (i.e.) oral tradition, the word on the street was that Christ would return swiftly. No need to write anything for future generations :) This story was one of many, which was fairly common, (i.e.) 'being a Messiah'. It was a cult following, like others prior and since. It wasn't until Constantine came along, and scribes started to really write stuff, that we have the writings we do now.




Another typical apologist answer...

New covenant, old covenant, doesn't matter...

The book expressed that God WAS 'a okay' with slavery, war, rape, etc... If God makes a different pact with differing people in the future, so what?.?.?.? If God ever sanctioned such events, events I'm sure YOU do not agree with, then we have a conflict. This still means God was okay with such actions at one point at least. So I guess God changed His mind. Furthermore, Jesus IS God ;) God IS Jesus. God sent a clone of Himself down to earth later, then ascended back up to heaven - (salvation/rescue). I doubt if you ascend to heaven some day, you will be greeted by two Gods (Yahweh and Jesus), will you?

And in regards to this 'new covenant', Jesus is still 'a okay' with slavery and inferiority of women in leadership --> (food for thought) :)




No. Please address what I actually said....

Asia, Africa, the Americas, etc., all report the same events in history. All have preserved copies of the same ancient text, demonstrating future knowledge in many categories. Scoffers today would be able to see this evidence left behind. Would doubt still exist, of course. Just like you thinking the earth is <10K years old most probably ;) Even though we have STACKS of evidence that the earth is much older, and evolutionary theory is sound, you still deny ;)

But instead, isn't it funny how revelation happens exclusively in the areas where the concentration of believers already reside? (i.e.) Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, etc... Yes, they all later spread out. But the story originates somewhere for ALL of them :) Hence, the reason I've heard of all the others as well; (i,e,) legend, stories, and lore spreads over time....



No. You state secular reports speak of earthquakes. And yet, such secular reports do not report the dead walking. We have one passage of such a specific event in a book. That's it. You are cherry picking. The Bible reports that the dead walked around for many to see. I would assume the purpose of such a statement was intended to persuade others that it happened. But the only way to substantiate such a claim, is to have multiple attestation of the very same event, from multiple people. And when we DON'T, then there where lies the problem ;)

You mean to tell me that there was not even one literate person, whom saw some zombies walking across them, and then not reporting, 'Um, this is weird, I was in town buying fruit, and I saw a zombie.' As stated many responses ago, if the intent was for eyewitness attestation, an no one reports it, (except for the bias writer), you might as well have performed such acts on Mars.


Your response is an assertion/assumption, that's all.




Revised? Funny. So God never sanctioned murder, rape, slavery, women's inequality in leadership, etc..?

And in your asserted 'revised' addition, God is still perfectly fine with the slavery and the women thing ;)
So you think you can dictate terms to God in heaven.

All Earth was informed of. Christ and the resurrection. All Earth receive the gospel. And when they first received it. Miracles are manifested.

Yes, it happened to be sequentially in series, not in parallel. Maybe Hypothetically God can only work one miracle on Earth at a time. Even if God were somehow so limited. That doesn't disprove. That God is able to intervene on Earth and manifest miracles.

One miracle or many is a difference of degree. The issue is the kind are there supernatural miracles occurring on earth throughout human history?

You're allegedly open minded requirements. For belief. Are. Without any basis. In logic. Much less theology.

But anyway, According to Christian claims. Mark wrote mark in Alexandria. and Rome. Matthew wrote Matthew in Jerusalem. Luke wrote Luke in Rome. And John wrote John in Ephesus in Asia Minor.

All of these and other acts of alleged supernatural intervention onto Earth. Happened in parallel. Across Christentum. More or less simultaneously.

I think I hear you saying that you wouldn't acknowledge the existence of God in heaven. Unless God in heaven simultaneously mind controlled all 7,000,000,000 people up on this planet all at once all simultaneously, including you. And forced you all to acknowledge God's existence.

Unless God in Heaven takes you over personally yourself. Out of your mouth will never come, the possibility of God's existence in heaven. Is what I hear you saying in essence?

But other than you I don't know who else besides yourself. Nominated you. As judge of The. Alleged existence of God in heaven. your requirement of MULTIPLE SIMULTANEOUS miraculous interventionS. Is not reasonable... One miracle or many miracles is still miraculous.

You're just moving goal posts beyond what actually happened in. Recorded human history. You're claiming to be open minded with a finite standard of evidence. But your standard of evidence is completely unreasonable.

OK, fine, God can only manifest one miracle on Earth at a time. God's technology is limited like that. Maybe God's next generation of technology will be able to manifest. Simultaneous. Multiple miracles. In parallel.

But for the moment God's technology is comparatively primitive and God can only manifest one miracle on Earth at a time. That's still miraculous in human terms.

Your prerequisite that God manifested simultaneous miracles worldwide at the same time. Is preposterous

you're essentially saying? That GOD HAS TO DO ONE MORE MIRACLE or a few more miracles before you will believe. God hasn't done enough miracles, God hasn't done as many miracles as is required.

That's not logically legitimate. I guess I get to hope somebody else calls you on that. As for me that's not legitimate. If God did so much as one miracle in the whole of human and earthly terrestrial history. That's still one more miracle than can be explained. by. LOCAL natural. Scientifique processes occuring on Earth in ISOLATION.

The claim is that Earth's isolation has been violated. So to speak one or more times. Whether it was once or whether it was many times. Whether it was many times simultaneously in parallel. Or numerous times sequentially in series. Is a difference of DEGREE? It misses the heart of the issue It misses the KIND of question or talking about here.

Is Earth ISOLATED from heaven or are there heavenly actors that can INFLUENCE our planet?

If Earth has been influenced by outside actors so much as ONE time in the past since the formation of this planet. That is a miraculous wonders event, which requires acknowledgement. And explanation.

"I won't believe in external actors until they reach low Earth Orbit and enter the atmosphere and can affect the entire surface area of the planet simultaneously" is not legitimate.

Supposedly that day is coming, too. Revelation 20:9.
 
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cvanwey

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So you think you can dictate terms to God in heaven.

All Earth was informed of. Christ and the resurrection. All Earth receive the gospel. And when they first received it. Miracles are manifested.

Yes, it happened to be sequentially in series, not in parallel. Maybe Hypothetically God can only work one miracle on Earth at a time. Even if God were somehow so limited. That doesn't disprove. That God is able to intervene on Earth and manifest miracles.

One miracle or many is a difference of degree. The issue is the kind are there supernatural miracles occurring on earth throughout human history?

You're allegedly open minded requirements. For belief. Are. Without any basis. In logic. Much less theology.

But anyway, According to Christian claims. Mark wrote mark in Alexandria. and Rome. Matthew wrote Matthew in Jerusalem. Luke wrote Luke in Rome. And John wrote John in Ephesus in Asia Minor.

All of these and other acts of alleged supernatural intervention onto Earth. Happened in parallel. Across Christentum. More or less simultaneously.

I think I hear you saying that you wouldn't acknowledge the existence of God in heaven. Unless God in heaven simultaneously mind controlled all 7,000,000,000 people up on this planet all at once all simultaneously, including you. And forced you all to acknowledge God's existence.

Unless God in Heaven takes you over personally yourself. Out of your mouth will never come, the possibility of God's existence in heaven. Is what I hear you saying in essence?

But other than you I don't know who else besides yourself. Nominated you. As judge of The. Alleged existence of God in heaven. your requirement of MULTIPLE SIMULTANEOUS miraculous interventionS. Is not reasonable... One miracle or many miracles is still miraculous.

You're just moving goal posts beyond what actually happened in. Recorded human history. You're claiming to be open minded with a finite standard of evidence. But your standard of evidence is completely unreasonable.

OK, fine, God can only manifest one miracle on Earth at a time. God's technology is limited like that. Maybe God's next generation of technology will be able to manifest. Simultaneous. Multiple miracles. In parallel.

But for the moment God's technology is comparatively primitive and God can only manifest one miracle on Earth at a time. That's still miraculous in human terms.

Your prerequisite that God manifested simultaneous miracles worldwide at the same time. Is preposterous

you're essentially saying? That GOD HAS TO DO ONE MORE MIRACLE or a few more miracles before you will believe. God hasn't done enough miracles, God hasn't done as many miracles as is required.

That's not logically legitimate. I guess I get to hope somebody else calls you on that. As for me that's not legitimate. If God did so much as one miracle in the whole of human and earthly terrestrial history. That's still one more miracle than can be explained. by. LOCAL natural. Scientifique processes occuring on Earth in ISOLATION.

The claim is that Earth's isolation has been violated. So to speak one or more times. Whether it was once or whether it was many times. Whether it was many times simultaneously in parallel. Or numerous times sequentially in series. Is a difference of DEGREE? It misses the heart of the issue It misses the KIND of question or talking about here.

Is Earth ISOLATED from heaven or are there heavenly actors that can INFLUENCE our planet?

If Earth has been influenced by outside actors so much as ONE time in the past since the formation of this planet. That is a miraculous wonders event, which requires acknowledgement. And explanation.

"I won't believe in external actors until they reach low Earth Orbit and enter the atmosphere and can affect the entire surface area of the planet simultaneously" is not legitimate.

Supposedly that day is coming, too. Revelation 20:9.

Hey buddy, what I'm observing, and what you are answering are apples and oranges. For the sake of others, I'm going to make smaller bullet points; so that others may not skip these novels we are writing to each other ;)

1. Seems as though God might appear post resurrection to more than one nation, so that all ancient folk lore, stories, and oral tradition would speak of similar events. (i.e.) Asia, Africa, the Americas, etc... Nations, which had no clue Jesus even existed, would speak of seeing a magical man with messages which 'bettered' their societies. This would represent no bias, as the only reports we instead currently have are from the theocracy which influenced the surrounding nation it ruled.

2. God would write the message Himself, on media no other humans had access to. If we had many global copies of preserved futuristic writings, (i.e.) type written on media not yet invented; skeptics would have a HARD TIME explaining such evidence away. Yes, one could then still scoff to some degree. But the conclusion of something beyond naturalism would demand an option/consideration/conclusion.

3. When reading the Bible, and the time periods in which each book was written/canonized, it appears more logical that as general human morals shifted, so did the writings. It's more likely that humans wrote text, passing them off as God pronouncements, just the same way people did for the Qur'an for instance. The same reason we now mostly reject slavery and the oppression of women, in spite of the fact they are either condoned (via slavery) or commanded (via oppression of women) in the Bible.

4. Seems odd that apologists will mention that we have secular reports of earthquakes. But somehow, we have absolutely not secular reports of seeing the rising dead? Just think how interesting it would be if we found journals, writings, or reports of non-believers simply stating they witnessed the 'undead' walking the streets. It would not even need to correlate back to the claims of a resurrection. They would just report seeing some zombies. And if the Bible expressed appearing to MANY, then one might assume someone would have reported it, and NOT just the BIAS WRITER.
 
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DogmaHunter

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But we cannot place our modern views or thoughts on words on an ancient/late antiquity work. In that time, trust was trust, there was nothing special about trusting a person or trusting God in that time.

Yes, in those days it was nothing special.
Today we know better. Back in the days, they were just wrong.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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But somehow, we have absolutely not secular reports of seeing the rising dead? Just think how interesting it would be if we found journals, writings, or reports of non-believers simply stating they witnessed the 'undead' walking the streets.
As per Yahweh's Revelation, all went as He directed. Jesus after His Resurrection did not appear to any unbelievers at all. Only to His followers who believed in Him.
 
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