Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

Jason0047 said:

You are still not getting what I am trying to say.

The miracles God did in your life is not the same as the miracles as Peter and Paul performed. Can you heal with your shadow? Can you heal by handing out your clothes? Can you heal by speaking to others that they are healed and they are then instantly healed?

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W2L said:

Who is writing these modern day scriptures then?

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Foxfyre said:

I didn't say that walking by faith means that we expect miracles. But I do believe walking by faith has to allow for the possibility of God doing miraculous things.

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Foxfyre said:

Many many have. I have found myself writing or speaking an insight or truth that never occurred to me until the moment I have written it down or spoken it. And I thanked God for that moment, that glimpse of wisdom that I earnestly believe came from him. I believe that happens to all who allow God to be God and do not presume to dictate how anybody must believe or how anybody must love or worship him. It probably even happens to the legalistic faithful who dictate what people must believe and do, but they probably don't recognize it as often maybe.

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W2L said:

The possibility yes, but also the possibility that He wont perform a miracle for us. I have not witnessed any miracles, but i have Jesus in my heart and thats the true miracle. I walk by faith not sight, which means im looking at eternal things not temporary things. Maybe God wont heal me. This world is temporary anyway. All the more reason to hope in eternal things

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W2L said:

Anyone can speak a doctrinal truth, but it always comes from scripture. Show me a doctrine that doesnt and i'll show you fallible doctrine.

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Cis.jd said:

i completely agree with the TC. I've seen people speak in tongues, claimed to have sage like powers, claimed to be able to channel the Holy Spirit to speak directly out of them to read people's hearts in almost every denomination i've been too. From Catholic, Baptist, Non Denom, Methodist, etc.

To me they are either liars or just social climbers. I remember when I was attending this Non-denom church, and one of the head people there had this "ability" (or gift as they call it) in where the Holy Spirit enters him and he will talk to you about what is in your heart. My church gave me and other members a 1 on 1 with him. He sat in a chair, then placed his palm over my heart, and then prayed in tongues and then a minute later went into some "trance" to signal that God is now using his voice to speak to me. Sadly, the only thing he revealed about myself where things I asked my connect/prayers groups to pray about but not the things i kept secret (anger towards god, my past addictions to smoking and masturbation).. yet that was never addressed. I've met Catholics and other denoms like this as well.

The audacity to lie like that almost made me leave christianity. If this man (and other people who do this) had the "gift" to have the Holy Spirit use him to speak whatever is in someones heart, then why can't they use this "gift" for good and go help the police in finding out suspected murderers?

This is why I am so against any form of christian views that lacks realism and rationality.

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Cis.jd said:

i completely agree with the TC. I've seen people speak in tongues, claimed to have sage like powers, claimed to be able to channel the Holy Spirit to speak directly out of them to read people's hearts in almost every denomination i've been too. From Catholic, Baptist, Non Denom, Methodist, etc.

To me they are either liars or just social climbers. I remember when I was attending this Non-denom church, and one of the head people there had this "ability" (or gift as they call it) in where the Holy Spirit enters him and he will talk to you about what is in your heart. My church gave me and other members a 1 on 1 with him. He sat in a chair, then placed his palm over my heart, and then prayed in tongues and then a minute later went into some "trance" to signal that God is now using his voice to speak to me. Sadly, the only thing he revealed about myself where things I asked my connect/prayers groups to pray about but not the things i kept secret (anger towards god, my past addictions to smoking and masturbation) yet that was never addressed.

If this man (and other people who do this) had the "gift" to have the Holy Spirit use him to speak whatever is in someones heart, then why can't they use this "gift" for good and go help the police in finding out suspected murderers?

This is why I am so against any form of christian views that lacks realism and rationality, and I honestly have this fear of going to any church regularly. It's like they are all scammers.

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Foxfyre said:

I respect your belief about that. I will also trust the counsel of the Holy Spirit more than I trust anybody's rigid interpretation of the scriptures that God has given and preserved for us.

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DamianWarS said:

The OP is making an incorrect comparison with the same word in james just because they look the same as a way to build a case that it refers to the completion of the canon as well as rejects an eschatological event and this is being deceptive (if not deceptive than in ignorance)

It's not 50/50 but rather it as how most translations put it as "when the perfect comes"
not when the perfect law comes, or the perfect scripture, or the perfect thing; it is just "the perfect".

Could this refer to an event analogous with the competition of the canon? Yes grammatically it can but it can also grammatically agree with the perfect lasagna that I have yet to taste but since both these events cannot be defended through scripture they would be done irresponsibly. What it should agree with is an event established in scripture not one missing in scripture.

Traditionally it has been thought of when we die and see Jesus in heaven or the return of Christ (both well supported in scripture) and this idea that it points to sometime in the 4th century is a more recent phenomenon which cannot be defended in scripture. I personally feel it points to an eschatological event specifically our incorruptible bodies which Paul talks about in the same letter. "body" is also a neuter noun so if we demand that it must be a neuter noun then this still agrees with it (scripture, law, canon, church are not neuter) .but as I established already, we miss the point when all we do is fish for a word that magically fits. I don't demand it is our incorruptible bodies but I do take my queues from established concepts already presented in scripture and the more in context the better (like within the same letter)

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1stcenturylady said:

This was unfortunate, but try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

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W2L said:

Its not rubbish. They were signs. I see many Christians dying of illness. It happens to believers and unbelievers. How do you explain that? I guess those believers just dont have the faith you do, or Jesus dont love them. Poor souls.

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devin553344 said:

Yeah I read the scriptural references that were used to suggest that these things don't happen anymore, and they seemed very vague to me. Did I get that wrong?

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Cis.jd said:

"i know. it's just i've experienced this a lot in different denominations. I just can't trust churches anymore.

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Jason0047 said:

You have to take the whole chapter into account when you read this verse. Otherwise, you are taking this verse out of context. Paul here is criticizing the Corinthians for speaking in tongues without an interpreter.

Let all things be done unto edifying." (1 Corinthians 14:26).

Here are the commands for speaking in tongues:

1. Let him that speaks in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful (1 Corinthians 14:13-14).
2. If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God (1 Corinthians 14:27-28). The spirits of the prophets [the speakers in tongues] are subject to the prophets [the interpreters]. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. (1 Corinthians 14:32-33).

Prophesying is done for the purpose of edifying the church.

"But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification," (1 Corinthians 14:3).

But he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks to edify themselves.

"He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church." (1 Corinthians 14:4).

"Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church." (1 Corinthians 14:12).

Paul is telling us to seek to edify the church and not to edify ourselves.

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Oscarr said:

Although I agree with your post, I do take issue with your last sentence. Paul did not say that we should not edify ourselves. He said that speaking in tongues edifies oneself and if a person wants to do just that, then he should speak to himself and to God, but not to the whole church unless there is a interpreter who can edify the church.

To say that a person should not edify themselves, is to deny Jude when he said that we should build ourselves up in the most holy faith, praying in the Spirit. (I'm not using this reference to support tongues, so don't start another debate on this one!). So, you can't say that we should not edify ourselves and then see Jude saying that we should.

No, edifying ourselves is for our private prayer before God alone, and edifying the church is for the public meeting. There is a place for both.

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Oscarr said:

The "sign" that John wrote about was the sign that Jesus is a good, loving, and compassionate Saviour. This is shown in His compassion for sick people and those who were under the oppression of the devil.

As far as Christian getting sick and dying, well, Paul was quite plain in 1 Corinthians where he said that people entered into the Lord's Supper without discerning what the body and the blood of Jesus were all about. Much of the church has turned the Lord's Supper into a religious ceremony instead of what the Lord intended it for. The significance of the broken body of Christ for our wholeness, mental, spiritual, and physical has been lost through the ritual and ceremony. This is why people are sickly and dying before their time. It is not God's fault. It is the church that has blocked the compassion of Jesus for sick people through its wrong doctrine, ritual, and plain unbelief.

Jesus is full of love, grace and compassion for people, but His love and grace can be frustrated by cold, non-compassionate religious people, just the same as He grieved over Jerusalem because He wanted to gather them in His arms like a hen gathers her chicks, but they would not! Therefore He couldn't get His way with the Jews because of their religiosity; and it is the same with many of our churches. He wants to show His love and compassion, but religiosity, judgmentalism and condemnatory attitudes prevents and frustrates Him. So He has to stand by and witness the church allow people in it to be sickly and die before their time instead of allowing His grace and power to make the difference in their lives.

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Jason0047 said:

I used to think that way, but Scripture has shown me otherwise. It's not an easy thing to accept. Many like the idea of chasing after the miracles instead of the heart of the Miracle Maker. Jesus criticized those he fed with the miracle of the many loaves and the fishes and He pointed them to seek after Himself (Who is the Bread of Life). They wanted more physical food (Which would be Him doing more miracles for them to be amazed by them).

Jesus told Thomas that blessed are they who do not see and yet believe. I believe Jesus is prophetically speaking of a time when miracles would cease and men of God would come to trust in Him by faith without seeing any kind of miracles.

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