Open Theism

ghtan said:

Might Jesus' admission that he did not know the date of his return be one scriptural proof that God need not know the future exhaustively, since Jesus was fully God as even non-open theists would agree?

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I wouldn’t cite that passage. It’s more likely that this is a human limitation, due to the Incarnation.

".. Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men" (Philippians 2)

I agree it was Jesus' own emptying of himself, or, He limited Himself of some of His divine attributes only 'for the incarnation'.

But I do believe the 'time' of the end is open ended, meaning God can wait or hurry the events that HE 'plans' to do.

lesliedellow said:

On the contrary:

“God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:” (Westminster Confession of Faith)

Orthodox Christianity has the merit of being self consistent, you see?

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(Me) Are you saying God can't 'cause' these things to come true, as in "bring it to pass"?
(You) On the contrary: “God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:” (Westminster Confession of Faith)

Yet your statement is 'not' contrary to what I said: That's my point.
Even a Calvinist would have to agree that God brings whatsoever to pass' (otherwise God is simply just watching without interfering in what happens).
Its 'not contrary' because 'both' positions say God can and does 'bring things to pass'. Right?

Whatever God 'ordains' (decrees, plans, decides) God will 'cause' and 'bring to pass' (what I asked is, you have to agree with that right?)
And that's what the texts say - just type in 'I will bring', or I will cause' or "I will do...' into your bible search or BibleHub browser and you get hundred references to God saying He will do something... thats not 'knowing' the future, thats 'making' it happen in the future - when the time comes.
Bible Search: i will bring
Bible Search: i will cause

Orthodox Christianity has the merit of being self consistent, you see?
The most 'consistent' thing here is the Calvinist misunderstanding of election, foreknowledge and predestined. Thats a sweeping generalization of the term Orthodox; as 'Orthodoxy' doesn't consistently agree with Calvinism. Because within Eastern, Catholic, and the Reformed churches there are differing or 'inconsistent' views of election etc.

zelosravioli said:

Whatever God 'ordains' (decrees, plans, decides) God will 'cause' and 'bring to pass' (what I asked is, you have to agree with that right?)

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Absolutely, and since he knows what he is going to bring about, he knows the future, contrary to what the open theists would have us believe. I really don’t know what you are prattling on about.

The most 'consistent' thing here is the Calvinist misunderstanding of election, foreknowledge and predestined. Thats a sweeping generalization of the term Orthodox; as 'Orthodoxy' doesn't consistently agree with Calvinism. Because within Eastern, Catholic, and the Reformed churches there are differing or 'inconsistent' views of election etc.

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Try reading Thomas Aquinas on the subject of predestination, or St Augustine for that matter.

While you are at it, you could go to Amazon and try typing Fr Reginald Garrigou Lagrange into their search engine.

hedrick said:

This is poetry. It is trying to say that God knows the author completely. It really only says that God knows his words before he speaks them. This is not a statement that God knows everything that everyone will do for all of history.

I checked a number of translations. The NASB is unusual. Most are more explicit that God knows your words before you speak them. So are the two commentaries I checked.

This is proof-texting at its worst.

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Nice try, hedrick.

I'll stick with the scriptural support for God's perfect foreknowledge.

hedrick said:

The prophets in general are speaking of God's intentions rather than predicting.

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That is essentially true, but it doesn't eliminate prediction.

The roles of OT prophets were:

1. To speak for God (see Jer 23:22; Deut 18:18; Ex 4:15-16);
2. To be mediators of God's covenant through announcing blessings and curses (e.g. Lev 26; Deut 4, 28-32);
3. Prediction (e.g. Micah 5:2, virgin birth; Isa 7:14; 9:6). In Jer 25:11-12, we have a prophecy given between 626-586 BC, but was not fulfilled until 50 years later.

Remember, God knows his own plans. Mic 5:2 is probably speaking of a renewal of David's line. A king to come from Bethlehem, the city of David, is a new Davidic king. Jesus was in many senses from Nazareth. He is born in Bethlehem because his family goes there specifically because they are of David's line. Surely God intended the Messiah to be from David's line, and quite probably to be born in Bethlehem. Sending the Messiah is something under God's control, after all.

Similarly, Jeremiah. God is responsible for bringing about Israel's destruction and also its restoration.

GodsGrace101 said:

Interesting. This would answer the problem with prayer. Why do we pray? Does it really change anything? Did God foreknow we were going to pray and thus knew the outcome?

If God only knows what's happening at the moment, it would make more sense that when we pray we may get a YES to that prayer.....

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Why ?
ALL of the Promises of Yahweh are Yes and Amen! in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior. Lord=Master=Rabboni tells us to pray , to bring everything , every request to the THRONE (of who?) THE ALMIGHTY! YES! HALLELUYAH! And when we pray, if we know that HE HEARS US, we know that we receive what what ask ! HALLELUYAH !

lesliedellow said:

Try reading Thomas Aquinas on the subject of predestination, or St Augustine for that matter.

While you are at it, you could go to Amazon and try typing Fr Reginald Garrigou Lagrange into their search engine.

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No. Not if seeking the Truth. I believe that there's obvious real or potential troubles with your suggestion.

OzSpen said:

That is essentially true, but it doesn't eliminate prediction.

The roles of OT prophets were:

1. To speak for God (see Jer 23:22; Deut 18:18; Ex 4:15-16);
2. To be mediators of God's covenant through announcing blessings and curses (e.g. Lev 26; Deut 4, 28-32);
3. Prediction (e.g. Micah 5:2, virgin birth; Isa 7:14; 9:6). In Jer 25:11-12, we have a prophecy given between 626-586 BC, but was not fulfilled until 50 years later.

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I'm not sure "prediction" is really the appropriate description, perhaps not the most accurate , per se.
Everything, every prophecy of Scripture is fulfilled as Yahweh says - foretelling, not predicting, what will be, perfect in the knowledge that it will be as Yahweh Says..

zelosravioli said:

".. Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men" (Philippians 2)

I agree it was Jesus' own emptying of himself, or, He limited Himself of some of His divine attributes only 'for the incarnation'.

But I do believe the 'time' of the end is open ended, meaning God can wait or hurry the events that HE 'plans' to do.

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Whatever he is supposed to have emptied himself of, the question remains whether he was still fully God as a result. If he was - and most conservative theologians maintain he was - then this is scriptural proof that one can be God yet not know the future exhaustively. In that case, there is no need to insist the same of God.

As an aside, I think the KJV correctly renders the Philippian verse to read that Jesus "made himself of no reputation" i.e. what he emptied himself of by becoming man was his heavenly glory. Therefore he retained all his eternal attributes, including omniscience.

lesliedellow said:

Absolutely, and since he knows what he is going to bring about, he knows the future, contrary to what the open theists would have us believe. I really don’t know what you are prattling on about.




Try reading Thomas Aquinas on the subject of predestination, or St Augustine for that matter.

While you are at it, you could go to Amazon and try typing Fr Reginald Garrigou Lagrange into their search engine.

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The open theist view says God is 'more amazing' and omniscient than the limited doctrine of 'closed' theism.

We say Gods plans are 'not' thwarted by beings with free choices.

Where closed-theism seems to assume that some human decision would upset and throw off God's plan!

We see God as so Omniscient - as to be able to work His plan - all while humans have freewill. God is an all knowing God; allowing all people to be free, knows what they are thinking, brings about his plans irregardless of our actions, and yet can answer, accommodate, tolerate, and when he wants to intervene - He can.

We do not believe God limits Himself and all the actions within the Universe - simply because Calvinists think His will and plans might get outsmarted and thrown off by freewill.

We say God is never outsmarted - and we have no worries of such - because Our God is infinitely smarter than a god who must limit Himself and everything so not to get lost or outsmarted.

ghtan said:

Whatever he is supposed to have emptied himself of, the question remains whether he was still fully God as a result. If he was - and most conservative theologians maintain he was - then this is scriptural proof that one can be God yet not know the future exhaustively. In that case, there is no need to insist the same of God.

As an aside, I think the KJV correctly renders the Philippian verse to read that Jesus "made himself of no reputation" i.e. what he emptied himself of by becoming man was his heavenly glory. Therefore he retained all his eternal attributes, including omniscience.

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This is normally not seen as an issue of God's omniscience, but rather of the fact that as fully man, when he is speaking as a man he doesn't have full knowledge. Remember, it's a heresy to deny that he has a distinct human mind.

He also died, but that's not taken as evidence against God's immortality.

hedrick said:

This is poetry. It is trying to say that God knows the author completely.

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hedrick,

I had quoted Ps 139:4 (NASB) as an example of God's omniscience. You don't like it because 'this is poetry'.

God tells the truth of events - even through poetry.

Ps 150:2, 6 (NIV) state:

2'Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness....

6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.

Praise the Lord.

I agree that Ps 150 is poetry but it teaches the truth of ....

• The need to praise the Lord. Why?
• For his acts or power (Gen 1:1; Jer 32:27; Col 1:17; Heb 1:3);
  
• For his surpassing greatness, i.e. magnificence (Deut 5:24);
  
• All who have the gift of breath in them should praise the Lord (Neh 12:46; Ps 145:21; Heb 13:15).

Let's not be misguided by the idea that poetry does not convey fact and agree with truth. What about this poetry?

1. Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
   That saved a wretch like me!
   I once was lost, but now am found;
   Was blind, but now I see.
2. ’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
   And grace my fears relieved;
   How precious did that grace appear
   The hour I first believed.
3. Through many dangers, toils and snares,
   I have already come;
   ’Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
   And grace will lead me home.
4. The Lord has promised good to me,
   His Word my hope secures;
   He will my Shield and Portion be,
   As long as life endures.
5. Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
   And mortal life shall cease,
   I shall possess, within the veil,
   A life of joy and peace.
6. The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
   The sun forbear to shine;
   But God, who called me here below,
   Will be forever mine.
7. When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
   Bright shining as the sun,
   We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
   Than when we’d first begun.

I cannot accept that, although Amazing Grace is a poem, it does not convey biblical truth/teaching that is found elsewhere in Scripture.

The Writing Center (University of Wisconsin - Madison) has an interesting analysis of 'How to Read a Poem'.

Oz

O LORD, You have searched me and known me 2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
You understand my thought from afar 3 You scrutinize my path and my lying down,
And are intimately acquainted with all my ways. 4 Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O LORD, You know it all. (psalm 139)
The verse says God knows our thoughts while we are thinking, and or from afar (and before we talk). The verse does not seem to imply, or even go further than that. How far back in time God may be anticipating our thoughts before we have them - we don't know - and this verse does not say (atemporal or not).

Secondly; this verse states this is 'enough' to say that God knows it all (is Omniscient).

zelosravioli said:

The open theist view says God is 'more amazing' and omniscient than the limited doctrine of 'closed' theism.

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zel,

Are you pulling my leg? Do you maintain that the God of limited omniscience (open theism) is 'more amazing' than the God of absolute omniscience (orthodox theism)?

Here is an exposition, including Scripture, by Stephen Charnock of, 'God Knows All Things Past, Present and Future'. This is the orthodox view of absolute knowledge, compared with the limited view of God's knowledge espoused by openness theology.

Oz

yeshuaslavejeff said:

I'm not sure "prediction" is really the appropriate description, perhaps not the most accurate , per se.
Everything, every prophecy of Scripture is fulfilled as Yahweh says - foretelling, not predicting, what will be, perfect in the knowledge that it will be as Yahweh Says..

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Jeff,

The Oxford Dictionaries online (2018. s.v. prediction) give prophecy as a synonym for prediction.

If a prophecy is a foretelling, it is a prediction.

Again, Oxford Dictionaries online (2018. s.v. foretell) provides prophesy and predict as synonyms for foretell.

I think you are quibbling over something that isn't any problem because prophecy = prediction = foretelling.

Oz

The difference is , a prediction can fail (like weather predictions every day!!!!!!!!)

Yahweh's Word NEVER FAILS.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

The difference is , a prediction can fail (like weather predictions every day!!!!!!!!)

Yahweh's Word NEVER FAILS.

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Jeff,

A biblical prophecy/prediction can NEVER FAIL when the prophet receives it from God.

Human weather predictions (no matter how fancy the instruments used) provide a poor analogy to God's prophecies/predictions that will never fail, e.g. Micah 5:2.

It was prophesied in Jeremiah 25:11-12 (NIV) that Judah would be ruled by Babylon for 70 years. The prophecy was given ca. 626-586 BC and was fulfilled 50 years later.

Isaiah 45:1 (NIV) was written ca. 701-681 BC. Babylon's gates opened for Cyrus is ca. 539 BC, thus fulfilling the prophecy 150 years later.

Nahum 3:15 (NIV) was prophesied ca. 614 BC,

'There the fire will consume you;
the sword will cut you down –
and it will devour you like a swarm of locusts.
Multiply like grasshoppers,
multiply like locusts!'

God, through Naham the prophet, predicted that Ninevah woud be destroyed by fire. Encyclopaedia Britannica reported that archaeologists found layers of ash on the ruins of that city:


There are many other OT prophecies that were fulfilled in the OT era.

Oz

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Yahweh's Word NEVER FAILS.

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Jeff,

Where do you find Yahweh's Word?

Oz