Did God predestine the Fall?

Hammster said:

Everyone in hell is there because of sin. Has it ever occurred to you that God never has to save anyone?

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I always find the modern entitlement mentality which pervades all of our culture to be strange, at best, and bizarre, at worst. All we are entitled to from God Almighty is an eternity in the Lake of Fire which burns forever and ever. I thank God constantly for His indescribable gift (II Corinthians 9:15).

Hawkins said:

This one is not about predestination. God doesn't need to defile logic....

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I like this and have taught it for a couple decades now. What God does is completely logical. There is nothing illogical about His ways. If we knew all the facts, principles, and situations, we would see that what He does makes sense.
Those who fall to the idea "we cannot understand God because He is so much bigger than we are and we cannot conceive logic." No. We can understand everything He does and why He does it- given we have all the facts. There is no truth or concept in the mind of God that we cannot perceive and fully understand. There is nothing illogical about God or His ways. We only lack the information to see the process from end to end.
God makes sense.

nonaeroterraqueous said:

An oft-repeated line by many a Christian but never the Bible.

What causes the will of a man? Himself? What caused the will that caused itself? This is one of the few matters wherein one can claim that a cause is its own cause, yet fail to see the logical farce. God is the only cause without a prior cause. Anything else to which we ascribe this condition is a false god.

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Does God have the power and Love to allow every mature adult to have a very limited amount of autonomous free will to allow humans to fulfill their earthly objective?

DZoolander said:

Absolute foreknowledge negates free will, IMHO.

If you have free will, that means there's uncertainty. It could be this, or it could be that.

If what you will choose is known with 100% certainty prior to you choosing it, then there was no true choice in the matter.

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The problem is with "prior to you choosing", because God does know prior to you knowing on your time line, but it is all history to God in His time. There is no prior time as far as God is concerned.

bling said:

Does God have the power and Love to allow every mature adult to have a very limited amount of autonomous free will to allow humans to fulfill their earthly objective?

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You lost the big picture as usual. Do you have the love not to ask Jesus Christ to be crucified the second time?

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Earth is a place for humans to show up as who they are.
A covenant is to identify the righteous (saved) from the wicked (unsaved).
A predestination is to facilitate the above.

The wicked don't need a predestination because it is super easy to expose them as who they are (they sin without exception).

It is however difficult for the righteous to be told apart (they sin too), without predestination that is.

Predestination is about how God designs a fate for the righteous to make critical choices along the path, such that they can be told apart from the wicked and thus openly judged as the righteous by the covenant applicable.

On the other hand, a covenant (unlike absolute Law) is not a complete objective mean to make the final judgment. It is however accurate enough for valid witnessing (of angels and saints) to be made. To put it another way, predestination makes it possible for your deeds to be witnessed by the chosen angels and human saints (i.e., Moses, Elijah and etc.) such that they can reckon you as the righteous by referencing a covenant in place which is applicable to you. However, this is not absolute. Jesus Christ is the final Judge. He says that you passed then you passed, He says that you are done then you are done.

For an example, the angels or saints may not be able to tell that theft on the cross besides Jesus is finally the saved. It's an extreme case that he's not "witnessed" but subject to the final decision of Jesus. To the mass majority of humans however, their deeds will tell them apart under the open witnessing of the angels and saints, by means of predestination and a covenant in place.

God knows who will be saved in the end by His foreknowledge but He didn't predestine them to be saved or condemned. He predestined the saved to make critical choices to show them up as who they are such that they will be saved by a said standard which is made known to everyone (i.e., a covenant). They are saved by such an open standard under the open witnessing of the angels and saints. Law itself gives the complete right to Jesus Christ to make the final judgment. Alternatively speaking, Jesus Christ earned this right by His own bloodshed. Those failed the judgment of covenant (i.e., by Jesus Christ) will subject themselves to another objective judgment, which is the judgment by God's absolute Law (one which applicable to both angels and humans). No humans are expected to survive this judgment by Law (angels will survive though).

The estimated final result is thus, those angels passing the judgment of Law, together with those humans passing the judgment of covenant (i.e., judgment of Jesus Christ) will make their way into the final Heaven where they live with God forever and ever.

Hawkins said:

You lost the big picture as usual. Do you have the love not to ask Jesus Christ to be crucified the second time?

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God is going to build a Heaven. It's more like you are going to build a large mansion, and to invite people to live with you forever. Will you accept someone who keeps teaching your children to become drug dealers and additive to drugs? You won't. So before you accept anyone to live with you, you need to set up criteria and rules for everyone to follow if they would like to live with you. That's the nature of what Law is.

Once rules are set, all candidates are equally judged under open witnessing. There's not much you can do even when you are God, if some candidates failed the judgment under open witnessing and in an open judgment.

In a nutshell, those not chosen are those not "suitable" to live with God in a forever realm. God's job is to define a covenant such that they would be disqualified openly and removed. He also defines predestination/fates for those "suitable" to live with him for them to show up as who they are, such that they can be qualified openly in accordance to the covenant in place.

To put it another way, God knows before hand who is going to be saved and who's not. However there's not much He can do if someone is openly witnessed and openly judged as the "disqualified".

That being said. God is the God of living but not the God of the dead. If you want the dead to be saved legitimately, Jesus would have to be crucified twice (this won't happen, that's why God is not the God of the dead). If on the other hand, you would like the dead to be saved illegitimately, it only means that God is not a just God to fail to stick to His own Law and covenants. If so, God's realm is not a lawful realm.

God isn't a Shepherd who loves both the sheep and wolves alike, simply because they cant' co-exist!

God isn't one who doesn't distinguish the weeds from the wheat. He only keeps the wheat by burning the weeds.

This is the Bible teaching! Trying your best to twist them in the name of love won't help. Emphasizing that you have more love than what God says who He is remains just another form of pride. While the underlying message is that "if God is who He said that He is then He won't be your God". There's where your faith stays!

bling said:

Does God have the power and Love to allow every mature adult to have a very limited amount of autonomous free will to allow humans to fulfill their earthly objective?

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So, what is the earthly objective for humans?

Hawkins said:

You lost the big picture as usual. Do you have the love not to ask Jesus Christ to be crucified the second time?

=======
Earth is a place for humans to show up as who they are.
A covenant is to identify the righteous (saved) from the wicked (unsaved).
A predestination is to facilitate the above.

The wicked don't need a predestination because it is super easy to expose them as who they are (they sin without exception).

It is however difficult for the righteous to be told apart (they sin too), without predestination that is.

Predestination is about how God designs a fate for the righteous to make critical choices along the path, such that they can be told apart from the wicked and thus openly judged as the righteous by the covenant applicable.

On the other hand, a covenant (unlike absolute Law) is not a complete objective mean to make the final judgment. It is however accurate enough for valid witnessing (of angels and saints) to be made. To put it another way, predestination makes it possible for your deeds to be witnessed by the chosen angels and human saints (i.e., Moses, Elijah and etc.) such that they can reckon you as the righteous by referencing a covenant in place which is applicable to you. However, this is not absolute. Jesus Christ is the final Judge. He says that you passed then you passed, He says that you are done then you are done.

For an example, the angels or saints may not be able to tell that theft on the cross besides Jesus is finally the saved. It's an extreme case that he's not "witnessed" but subject to the final decision of Jesus. To the mass majority of humans however, their deeds will tell them apart under the open witnessing of the angels and saints, by means of predestination and a covenant in place.

God knows who will be saved in the end by His foreknowledge but He didn't predestine them to be saved or condemned. He predestined the saved to make critical choices to show them up as who they are such that they will be saved by a said standard which is made known to everyone (i.e., a covenant). They are saved by such an open standard under the open witnessing of the angels and saints. Law itself gives the complete right to Jesus Christ to make the final judgment. Alternatively speaking, Jesus Christ earned this right by His own bloodshed. Those failed the judgment of covenant (i.e., by Jesus Christ) will subject themselves to another objective judgment, which is the judgment by God's absolute Law (one which applicable to both angels and humans). No humans are expected to survive this judgment by Law (angels will survive though).

The estimated final result is thus, those angels passing the judgment of Law, together with those humans passing the judgment of covenant (i.e., judgment of Jesus Christ) will make their way into the final Heaven where they live with God forever and ever.

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Is your Love for Christ such that you would have asked Him to not go to the cross the first time for you and because of you?

redleghunter said:

Also considering if we have 100% free will we end up telling God how things should be.

The libertarian free will promoted by some Christians makes God a beggar with hat in hand waiting for us to make some decision for or against Him.

This is the Enlightenment version of Deism.

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liberty of conscience said:

This may be of help to the topic at hand:

Why was sin permitted?

https://www.thedesireofagesproject....ers_media_-_music_score_and_sound_effects.mp3

God with us

https://www.thedesireofagesproject.com/uploads/6/2/6/8/6268448/da_ch_1_god_with_us1.mp3

"... The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Romans 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}

Lucifer had said, "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; . . . I will be like the Most High." Isaiah 14:13, 14. But Christ, "being in the form of God, counted it not a thing to be grasped to be on an equality with God, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men." Philippians 2:6, 7, R. V., margin. {DA 22.3}

This was a voluntary sacrifice. Jesus might have remained at the Father's side. He might have retained the glory of heaven, and the homage of the angels. But He chose to give back the scepter into [23] the Father's hands, and to step down from the throne of the universe, that He might bring light to the benighted, and life to the perishing. {DA 22.4} ..." - The Desire of Ages (1898), pages 22.2-22.4

Sin was never "ordained", for that is a blasphemous charge against God, though it was foreseen and permitted for a reason (people still cannot seem to understand the difference between omniscience/foreknowledge and omnipotence/permission in the context of God who is love, without freewill/choice there is no love, yet Christ Jesus is the free will offering, God freely gave which takes nothing away from His soverignty).

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"The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam."

The plan of salvation was made before the foundations of the earth.

Ephesians 1

4 Long before he laid down earth's foundations, he had us in mind, had settled on us as the focus of his love, to be made whole and holy by his love.
5 Long, long ago he decided to adopt us into his family through Jesus Christ.
6 He wanted us to enter into the celebration of his lavish gift-giving by the hand of his beloved Son.

bling said:

Is your Love for Christ such that you would have asked Him to not go to the cross the first time for you and because of you?

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It's His own choice, I have no and incapable of having any influence to God's own decision. Your pride tells you that you have such a choice?

bbbbbbb said:

So, what is the earthly objective for humans?

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The reason you have free will is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world which includes satan roaming around is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.



God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time:

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)



This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).



An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).



This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.



Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.



All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

That is an introduction to a huge topic.

Hawkins said:

It's His own choice, I have no and incapable of having any influence to God's own decision. Your pride tells you that you have such a choice?

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Would you have asked Him not to go?

bling said:

That is an introduction to a huge topic.

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As I have pointed out. This remains your own teaching, not Bible teaching!


That being said. God is the God of living but not the God of the dead. If you want the dead to be saved legitimately, Jesus would have to be crucified twice (this won't happen, that's why God is not the God of the dead). If on the other hand, you would like the dead to be saved illegitimately, it only means that God is not a just God to fail to stick to His own Law and covenants. If so, God's realm is not a lawful realm.

God isn't a Shepherd who loves both the sheep and wolves alike, simply because they cant' co-exist!

God isn't one who doesn't distinguish the weeds from the wheat. He only keeps the wheat by burning the weeds.

This is the Bible teaching! Trying your best to twist them in the name of love won't help. Emphasizing that you have more love than what God says who He is remains just another form of pride. While the underlying message is that "if God is who He said that He is then He won't be your God". There's where your faith stands!

DZoolander said:

If you believe that God is omniscient, knowing past, present and future with 100% certainty, then yes, the fall was predestined. Everything is.

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No. Because Adam and Eve had free will.

Just because God didn’t interfere doesn’t mean God predestined it. What do you think free will means?

Hammster said:

Everyone in hell is there because of sin. Has it ever occurred to you that God never has to save anyone?

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No. We can't save ourselves, so what does that leave? If we didn't need Him Jesus would not have come.
The issue is whether God will save sinners who come and ask for Him to do so. That is what keeps us from hell. Our choice to accept His free gift.

Yes, I believe that the Fall was predetermined. The Bible says that Jesus is "the lamb who was slain before the salvation of the world." The only way this is possible is if God foreknew the plan of salvation, and therefore knew that the Fall would happen. As others have mentioned, Ephesians 1 teaches predestination and God's sovereignty. Ephesians 1:11 says, "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will". God's will cannot be thwarted. However, is it really God's will for 80%+ of humanity to burn in hell for all of eternity? No. God's plan from all eternity is shown in Colossians 1:19-20: "For it pleased the Father that in Him (Jesus) all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross." Free will is an illusion; our "choices" are determined by our nature and nurture. As others have stated, God is the ultimate cause of everything, including our free choices. We act out based on our nature. A choice is either caused or uncaused, and if it's uncaused, it's random. There's no room for true free will. God ordained the Fall to happen so that we would have to experience frustration and separation from Him (Romans 8:18-21). He theoretically could have created us all in a state of perfection in heaven, but I suspect that this would be inferior to having to experience pain and frustration beforehand. The Bible says that, "Whoever is forgiven little loves little" (Luke 7:47). Some people will have to experience a great deal of pain and frustration and purification in the Lake of Fire, but ultimately, all will be saved. God will "be all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28). The predetermination of the Fall and of the subsequent reconciliation of all things is summarized nicely in Romans 11:32, which says, "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

vikingsfan345 said:

Yes, I believe that the Fall was predetermined. The Bible says that Jesus is "the lamb who was slain before the salvation of the world." The only way this is possible is if God foreknew the plan of salvation, and therefore knew that the Fall would happen. As others have mentioned, Ephesians 1 teaches predestination and God's sovereignty. Ephesians 1:11 says, "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will". God's will cannot be thwarted. However, is it really God's will for 80%+ of humanity to burn in hell for all of eternity? No. God's plan from all eternity is shown in Colossians 1:19-20: "For it pleased the Father that in Him (Jesus) all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross." Free will is an illusion; our "choices" are determined by our nature and nurture. As others have stated, God is the ultimate cause of everything, including our free choices. We act out based on our nature. A choice is either caused or uncaused, and if it's uncaused, it's random. There's no room for true free will. God ordained the Fall to happen so that we would have to experience frustration and separation from Him (Romans 8:18-21). He theoretically could have created us all in a state of perfection in heaven, but I suspect that this would be inferior to having to experience pain and frustration beforehand. The Bible says that, "Whoever is forgiven little loves little" (Luke 7:47). Some people will have to experience a great deal of pain and frustration and purification in the Lake of Fire, but ultimately, all will be saved. God will "be all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28). The predetermination of the Fall and of the subsequent reconciliation of all things is summarized nicely in Romans 11:32, which says, "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

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Knowing about something does not mean we forced it to happen.

Hammster said:

I think you misunderstood the question. At least I hope you did. So let me try this.

Is God obligated to save anyone?

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Yes, of course, IF they choose to accept the gift HE gave. He lives up to His word.

dad said:

Yes, of course, IF they choose to accept the gift HE gave. He lives up to His word.

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What do you make of Psalms 14 and 53, especially the phrase, "There is none who seeks for God, not even one."?