The No-Straw-Man Calvinism challenge.

dad said:

Their free will. If we can chose, we can change our mind. (of course God comes in and helps when we ask)

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We are all children of Adam and Eve. Adam's one sin condemns us all. His sin was disobedience.

As children of Adam, we are by extension children of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil instead of children of the Tree of Life. Children of disobedience do what disobedient do and do not seek God's Holiness and Love. Adam and Eve rejected God's Holiness and Love for the serpent's lie that they could be like God if they partook of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

That's the state we are all in. Explain, what good is there in our natural states as spiritually dead to approach a Holy and Loving God who will Righteously Judge our fallen Tree of Knowledge state?

Only God can directly fix this disobedient sin nature. Guess what? The apostle Paul explains how God does this by His Grace (unmerited favor):

Romans 8: NASB
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hammster said:

What exactly are they asking God for?

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Salvation.

Hammster said:

What if God had a way to ensure we’d choose Him without force?

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What if He left it up to us? What if the predestination verses were more like acknowledging He knew what we would chose, so that in effect makes us chosen?

redleghunter said:

I would like to see some expository from Scriptures to support this claim that we choose Him before He chooses us.

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Why would it have to be before?? The apostles chose to follow Him, but He chose them first. You can't really expect to do things before God. So, does or choice matter and does the future depend on our choice to chose Him? Yes. Whoever comes to Him He will not cast out! I suggest that it hinges on our choice.

Romans 3 refutes this notion:

Romans 3: NASB

10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

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Choosing Him has nothing to do with being righteous. We get righteous afterwards.
He came to call sinners, not the 'righteous'.

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

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Well once we get saved we can do some good! That is why He came, we were a mess.

13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;

14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING ANDBITTERNESS”;

15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”

18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

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Correct, unsaved men were stinkers. Than God He paid the price and offers salvation to all who ask!

This is the state of each and everyone of us.

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Wrong and absurd. The state of the saved is that Christ dwells in them now!

We must be 'smacked upside the head and beat about the shoulders' by Someone as we are dead in our sins and trespasses and children of wrath (Ephesians 2).

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False. We simply must know we need Him, and ask for forgiveness and salvation. In fact, He promises we then will NOT be appointed to wrath.

We are dead spiritually and like Lazarus dead in the tomb rotting and stinking we must be made alive in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2) before we can even choose.

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The alive part comes after we choose. Before that we are dead in sin. Therefore...chose life!

redleghunter said:

We are all children of Adam and Eve. Adam's one sin condemns us all. His sin was disobedience.

As children of Adam, we are by extension children of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil instead of children of the Tree of Life. Children of disobedience do what disobedient do and do not seek God's Holiness and Love. Adam and Eve rejected God's Holiness and Love for the serpent's lie that they could be like God if they partook of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

That's the state we are all in. Explain, what good is there in our natural states as spiritually dead to approach a Holy and Loving God who will Righteously Judge our fallen Tree of Knowledge state?

Click to expand...

Since He asked us to do so, and promised salvation for doing it, and He died to ensure we could do it, I would say there is a lot of good in coming to Him as wretched sinners.

It is not by virtue of being the sons of Adam that we can do that. It is the grace of God through Jesus...the new Adam.

Only God can directly fix this disobedient sin nature. Guess what? The apostle Paul explains how God does this by His Grace (unmerited favor):

Click to expand...

Romans 8: NASB
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

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Yes, and fix it He does when we come to Him. Since God is above time, of course He foreknew us. He also knows who will not receive Him. None of that negates our choice.

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Correct, once we get saved nothing can separate us.

dad said:

You can't really expect to do things before God.

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Yet that is exactly what you have promoted here and on another thread.

dad said:

So, does or choice matter and does the future depend on our choice to chose Him? Yes. Whoever comes to Him He will not cast out! I suggest that it hinges on our choice.

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Guess you were not following. I was explaining the even footed state we are all in---Condemned---before we are called to faith in Christ by God's Grace.

dad said:

Choosing Him has nothing to do with being righteous. We get righteous afterwards.
He came to call sinners, not the 'righteous'.

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Again, you are not reading the Scriptures nor what I commented on, so will let this one fly.

dad said:

Well once we get saved we can do some good! That is why He came, we were a mess.

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dad said:

Wrong and absurd. The state of the saved is that Christ dwells in them now!

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You do realize I was speaking of our condemned state before our conversion. I have to ask, are you really reading and taking the time to understand what I am writing?

dad said:

False. We simply must know we need Him, and ask for forgiveness and salvation. In fact, He promises we then will NOT be appointed to wrath.

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Again you are not considering what I plainly pointed out. Dead people don't respond to anything but the Light of Christ.

dad said:

The alive part comes after we choose. Before that we are dead in sin. Therefore...chose life!

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Ok, now we are dead again and made alive by Christ. Why do you write two conflicting things in the same post?

dad said:

What if He left it up to us? What if the predestination verses were more like acknowledging He knew what we would chose, so that in effect makes us chosen?

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Then it would not be "predestination" if we choose Him and then He chooses us. Unless of course we predestine that God will choose us once we choose Him. Dunno if that works considering He has been around for Eternity and you and I a few years.

dad said:

Since He asked us to do so, and promised salvation for doing it, and He died to ensure we could do it, I would say there is a lot of good in coming to Him as wretched sinners.

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Doing what exactly?

dad said:

It is not by virtue of being the sons of Adam that we can do that. It is the grace of God through Jesus...the new Adam.

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Now we are getting somewhere.

dad said:

Yes, and fix it He does when we come to Him. Since God is above time, of course He foreknew us. He also knows who will not receive Him. None of that negates our choice.

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Explain. Using the Bible will help too.

redleghunter said:

Yet that is exactly what you have promoted here and on another thread.


Guess you were not following. I was explaining the even footed state we are all in---Condemned---before we are called to faith in Christ by God's Grace.


Again, you are not reading the Scriptures nor what I commented on, so will let this one fly.




You do realize I was speaking of our condemned state before our conversion. I have to ask, are you really reading and taking the time to understand what I am writing?


Again you are not considering what I plainly pointed out. Dead people don't respond to anything but the Light of Christ.


Ok, now we are dead again and made alive by Christ. Why do you write two conflicting things in the same post?

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Before we make the choice to accept His Gift of salvation, we are dead.

Not sure why you seem to think we are forced to chose by some demented predestination...

redleghunter said:

Doing what exactly?



Now we are getting somewhere.

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The good that comes from being saved came by doing this...coming to Him and asking.

redleghunter said:

Explain. Using the Bible will help too.

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Well since He says we need to chose and ask, the mere fact He knew we would or would not do so before we did changes nothing in the value of the choice!

Hammster said:

They don’t believe.

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They believe enough to ask. That's all He asks. After we are saved faith can begin to grow by reading and hearing the word.

dad said:

Before we make the choice to accept His Gift of salvation, we are dead.

Not sure why you seem to think we are forced to chose by some demented predestination...

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I haven’t even mentioned predestination.

How can the spiritually dead choose God?

dad said:

The good that comes from being saved came by doing this...coming to Him and asking.

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The dead don’t move.

dad said:

Well since He says we need to chose and ask, the mere fact He knew we would or would not do so before we did changes nothing in the value of the choice!

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What Biblical teaching is that exactly?

Hammster said:

That is exactly backwards from scripture.

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I don't think so.

redleghunter said:

I haven’t even mentioned predestination.

How can the spiritually dead choose God?

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Easy. Same way the spiritually dead choose to reject Him.