The No-Straw-Man Calvinism challenge.

[BobRyan]

Only the elect have faith upon hearing. Isaiah 53: 1 is one good example.

Abraham was justified even before the Isaac sacrifice incident. Please check the book of Genesis.

Romans 10 spells out the process very well.

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

 

[Si_monfaith]

What is the problem of molinism which opposes the Calvinism challenge?


It is feared that if the human will is free, and since humans commit acts of sins, this would render God as the originator of evil/acts of sin.

Reply:
God says that He creates evil (which refers to sinful acts also because Adam and Eve chose kge-knowledge of good and evil, which eventually led them to violations of the law and which is committing acts of sin. Nakedness was considered an act of sin after they chose kge) in Isaiah 45:7 because humans have the kge. Without kge, humans cannot know that something is evil or a sinful act.

So if one is set free from the kge as per Romans 7:4,6, the kge is taken away from him (as knowledge of what an act of sin is, comes from the law-Romans 3:20) and he cannot know what an act of sin is, and therefore he will not be worried about God creating evil/sinful acts. Now, God says that He creates or authors evil/sinful acts to demonstrate to the elect the difference between the life under kge and the life under His grace. Under kge there is death whereas under grace there is eternal life.

 

[redleghunter]

No, I don't think so. The God I believe in, the God of the Bible has granted the opportunity of salvation to everyone.

I think the follow up question would be this according to your quote:

If everyone has an opportunity of salvation why do some still reject Christ and not choose Him?

Put the opposite way...why do some choose Christ? What makes them special?

 

[redleghunter]

An equal opportunity at that

If it’s equal then why do some still reject the Gospel?

What made the free choice of the chooser better than the free choice of the rejector? Was there some inate quality in one and not the other?

Truly I’m curious as no one seems to want to address this.

 

[redleghunter]

This was before chapter 3 of Romans. Which means we can write Romans 3:20 over the top of this.

Paul is the one that wrote it, not me. Ask him.

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:13-14‬ ‭NIV‬‬

 

[Si_monfaith]

I began a thread which uses 11 quotes from Calvin to show that, on Calvinism, 1) God is the author of evil, 2) God predestines to Hell, and 3) there is no free will.

Now I would insert an argument to show any one of these three points, but I suspect that you will just say, "Still doesn't disprove Calvinism." Do you think Calvinism disagrees with any of those three points? Do you think God is not the author of evil, or God does not predestine to Hell, or there is free will?

God hardened pharaoh and he sinned and admitted his sin. Why?

It is because God is conveying a message which is stated in Psalms 135:6 and Psalms 115:3.

 

[gordonhooker]

What is the problem of molinism which opposes the Calvinism challenge?


It is feared that if the human will is free, and since humans commit acts of sins, this would render God as the originator of evil/acts of sin.

Reply:
God says that He creates evil (which refers to sinful acts also because Adam and Eve chose kge-knowledge of good and evil, which eventually led them to violations of the law and which is committing acts of sin. Nakedness was considered an act of sin after they chose kge) in Isaiah 45:7 because humans have the kge. Without kge, humans cannot know that something is evil or a sinful act.

So if one is set free from the kge as per Romans 7:4,6, the kge is taken away from him (as knowledge of what an act of sin is, comes from the law-Romans 3:20) and he cannot know what an act of sin is, and therefore he will not be worried about God creating evil/sinful acts. Now, God says that He creates or authors evil/sinful acts to demonstrate to the elect the difference between the life under kge and the life under His grace. Under kge there is death whereas under grace there is eternal life.

Which Law are you referring to?
I ask because the Law Paul is referring to in the passages you referenced Rom. 7:4,6 and Rom. 3:20 relates to Mosaic Law and you are trying to link it to the Adam and Eve story which is long before Moses gave the Israelites the Law.

 

[gordonhooker]

God hardened pharaoh and he sinned and admitted his sin. Why?

It is because God is conveying a message which is stated in Psalms 135:6 and Psalms 115:3.

These Psalms are songs of praise from the people to God, how do they relate to the premise of the post you were responding to?

 

[redleghunter]

Then those in hell will have an excuse to blame God

The very fact anyone would be driven to blame God says something about their heart.

 

[redleghunter]

Well, if they claim that we do have free will, then we cannot be predestined in the way of salvation, in the way we think of the word predestination. Any definition of predestination must include our having a real choice. You cannot claim God is sovereign over our will..because He limited Himself to allow us the choice!

You do realize Calvin is not doing the predestination. Ephesians chapters 1-2 are very helpful.

 

[redleghunter]

How could anyone destined to chose something have free will?

Understanding our fallen nature is key to understanding our free will choices.

Jeremiah 13:

23Can the Ethiopianb change his skin,

or the leopard his spots?

Neither are you able to do good—

you who are accustomed to doing evil. (NASB)

We cannot change our nature which is dead in sin (Ephesians 2) and suppresses righteousness (Romans 2).

That means our will is a slave to sin leading to death (Romans 6).

Based on this what we choose freely is colored by our fallen nature. Therefore as Paul says in Romans 3 none seek Him and we are all sinners.

So something has to change to respond to God’s Love letter the Gospel.

Therefore, because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

 

[redleghunter]

I've heard you guys say we have no free will at all. It doesnt exist. Free will.

Don’t think this is the case. See post above this one.

Do you see our free will as being influenced by our natures and if so what nature would that be before our conversion?

 

[Si_monfaith]

Which Law are you referring to?
I ask because the Law Paul is referring to in the passages you referenced Rom. 7:4,6 and Rom. 3:20 relates to Mosaic Law and you are trying to link it to the Adam and Eve story which is long before Moses gave the Israelites the Law.

Moses law was written. Knowledge of good and evil is the law in the heart.

 

[Si_monfaith]

These Psalms are songs of praise from the people to God, how do they relate to the premise of the post you were responding to?

Psalms contain truth. They have prophecies as well.

 

[gordonhooker]

Psalms contain truth. They have prophecies as well.

I know that, I was asking how they related to the post you were responding to?

 

[gordonhooker]

Moses law was written. Knowledge of good and evil is the law in the heart.

The Mosaic Law was written well after the story of Adam and Eve, so it had nothing to do with Adam and Eve or the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[Si_monfaith]

The Mosaic Law was written well after the story of Adam and Eve, so it had nothing to do with Adam and Eve or the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Written law versus knowledge of law present in the heart

 

[Si_monfaith]

I know that, I was asking how they related to the post you were responding to?

God does His will everywhere.

 

[redleghunter]

As I've shown according to the Canons of Dordt, we aren't free to reject or accept faith, it is instilled in us without our consent or choice. God simply doesn't give us any option. That makes our expressions of love, obedience, and devotion completely meaningless, as they are compelled from us rather than chosen by us.

Have you explored that God's Grace towards destitute and damned sinners is for His Namesake? Does not seem 'fair' by human standards. Especially post-modern human standards.

Ezekiel 36: NASB
22“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23“I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24“For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28“You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. 29“Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you. 30“I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31“Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. 32“I am not doing this for your sake,” declares the Lord GOD, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!”


I will, I will, I will....Quite a series of "I wills" there.

 

[dad]

You do realize Calvin is not doing the predestination. Ephesians chapters 1-2 are very helpful.

So who is 'doing the predestination"