Signs of the Apostles.....Apostolic Uniqueness

Dave L said:

This does not produce scripture I can believe in.

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I don't think debate is your strong point friend.

ICONO'CLAST said:

No..not at all
There is no Apostolic succession at all.
There was the foundational Apostles eph2:20..
Did you read the opening posts?

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Sorry friend, you are promoting Apostolic Succession in the thread. Congratulations, you're a new Catholic just like your friend.

ICONO'CLAST said:

LoveofTruth,
[Tell me what you think this event was. Just one of many]
okay
A true event.
of course
[I was standing on the corner of the chief place of concourse in the city with another brother and waiting on the Lord, praying and ready to preach. I prayed and said to the other brother with me "we need something to stand on like a ladder". A few moments after I had said that, my other brother in Christ Tim, drove up along the street and parked right at that area. He stepped out of his station wagon and said hello and told us that he had something for us. He then went into the back of his station wagon and pulled out a ladder for us to use. I was amazed and rejoiced, I told him that I just prayed and told my other brother in Christ that we needed a ladder to stand on.]

Of course.....I always drive into a city with a spare ladder in the car in case I bump into a friend who happens to be there and needs a ladder to watch break dancers...who doesn't?

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I believe the Lord told him to bring the ladder

ICONO'CLAST said:

For there to be Apostolic sign gifts, there needs to be Apostles. There are no Apostles today. No one has what Jesus promised them. You say you read the verses what did Jesus promise the Apostles? can you tell us?

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There are apostles today just as there are prophets and evangelist pastors and teachers. These gifts were given AFTER the resurrection, so they are not speaking specifically of the original 12 called in Matthew 10. The five gifts mentioned in Ephesians 4:11 include pastors. This is the only place in the New Testament where the word "pastors" in a noun form is used. So if we get rid of apostles and prophets there then we must also get rid of pastors, evangelist and teachers.

If you ask a man who claims to be in a pastor gift what justification does he have for such a understanding. They may run to the one verse about pastors in the New Testament Ephesians 4:11.

These gifts are for the church and all still needed.

Ephesians 4:8-11. “Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:”

Also the original apostles extend into the New Testament and they also function in this capacity as well but they are also in a specific ministration and any ones as messengers of the life of Jesus from John till the resurrection having gone all through Jesus ministry as eye witnesses.

Acts 1:21. Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22. Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. 23. And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25. That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. 26. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.”

This was not the way Paul, Barnabas, Timotheus, Silvanus, Titus and other apostles were chosen. We see of Paul (who was not part of the original apostles and who did not see all they had to see in Acts 1) that his call is I would say, the first call if the New Testament apostles after the resurrection. Paul said of his call,

Galatians 1 - 1. Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead ).

And of Barnabas (who was either a prophet or teacher among others in the church) before he was called by God and sent out by God in his apostolic call. We read

Acts 13 - 1. Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2. As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. 4. So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.”

And the proof that Barnabas was an apostle by this is here.

Acts 14 - 14. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,”

With Timotheus and Silvanus we see also that they were apostles after the resurrection and for the church.

1 Thessalonians 1:1. Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ....2:6 “ 1 Thessalonians 2:6. Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.”

So the case is clear from scripture that there are apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers AFTER the resurrection of Christ for the church until we all come in the unity of the faith and of the Knowledge of the Son of God unto the perfect man.

I get a chuckle out of these guys at times. They've been around here since mid 2000's. They have an idea, so they cobble together some scripture around that idea, and then say "ok prove me wrong."

In this case, the idea was that there must be apostles for the gifts to be present, something that scripture never teaches or affirms, no matter how much you attempt to infer it. The biggest problem associated with that idea was who else promoted such a similar teaching, the Catholic church. They base their existence around the tradition of apostolic succession.

I think it's bad teaching like this that is affecting the old protestant denominations nowadays.

ICONO'CLAST said:

GOD is not telling people to drive into the city and bring a ladder....nope....not happening .

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And yet it did happen as I told you.

You do not understand

here are some type of examples of things similar

"9 And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare? 10 And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. 11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? 12 And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready. 13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover."(Luke 22:9-13 KJV)

"2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them."(Matthew 21:2,3 KJV)

A ladder may also symbolize the connection between heaven and earth and Jesus Christ the way as we see in scripture Genesis 28:12-15, and John 1:51.

Psalm 37:23
The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way.

Dave L said:

Not if the sole means of distribution no longer exists.

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The supernatural gifts belonged to the First Century church for sure, but today's church is nothing like it, so it is understood that there is little evidence of them in most churches today. Today's church is a mess of factions, divisions, hatred of brothers and sisters, jealousy, envy, worldly attitude and pagan philosophy. Not wonder we don't see evidence of God's supernatural power in churches like that!

Dave L said:

Present scripture I can believe in.

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But most of our churches don't act on it. They have their Sunday services and the members go home and forget about it until the next week.

Oscarr said:

The supernatural gifts belonged to the First Century church for sure, but today's church is nothing like it, so it is understood that there is little evidence of them in most churches today. Today's church is a mess of factions, divisions, hatred of brothers and sisters, jealousy, envy, worldly attitude and pagan philosophy. Not wonder we don't see evidence of God's supernatural power in churches like that!

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The way I understand this is; the body of Christ = the church made up of believers only. It is invisible until two or more meet in Jesus' name. It then becomes invisible when the meeting dissolves.

But divisive people draw off people to themselves based on the errors that divide them from the rest of the body. And denominations develop around them. And this is even true of the large scale visible institutional churches. But here we sit, refusing to become part of any of it. Biding the time and taking fellowship where we can find it.

Oscarr said:

But most of our churches don't act on it. They have their Sunday services and the members go home and forget about it until the next week.

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Just saying, faith comes from hearing the word and no word in the matter = no faith in the matter.

ICONO'CLAST said:

Oscar...
If a person visits New Zealand' what or where are 3 or places that are a must see ? Are their places that are not safe to go?
Is the Abel Tasman coastline as scenic as it Looks?
Or Te Pukatea bay?

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I don't know where Te Pukatea Bay is..
But I tramped the Abel Tasman coastline in 1986, and found it great! I fully recommend it. I also spent three weeks at Lake Te Anau in the South Island, caught a few trout and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. Lake Wanaka is another great place to visit. I found Queenstown a bit "touristy" and high priced for me. And the enormous trout under a moored barge just wouldn't take my lure!!!

Rotorua and Taupo in the North Island are interesting places to visit as well.
I spent my honeymoon in 1973 driving around the East Coast of the North Island from Napier to Tauranga and that was unforgettable.

I am not an overseas traveller, not interested. Too many great places in my own country to have fun. I'm getting a bit on now, and driving is a bit of a mission if I have to go somewhere that takes more than a couple of hours. When my daughter is up from Christchurch, she does the driving, and I can relax in the "suicide seat" and enjoy the scenery.

If you decide to come down here, and end up in Auckland, let me know and we can meet for coffee. I will enjoy that. Then we can haggle over the Apostles then! Hahahahahahaha!

ICONO'CLAST said:

Thanks Oscar...we can disagree and remain friendly.
I have been looking online and it does look like a go to kind of place.

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If you don't mind sitting for 14 hours in "Cattle Class"!

ICONO'CLAST said:

from John Piper;

Jesus chose Twelve Apostles for a unique, unrepeatable role in the history of redemption. This can be seen in the following five passages of Scripture.

• Luke 6:13 – “And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles.”
• Matthew 19:28 – “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
• Acts 1:21-22 – (After Judas had committed suicide, Peter realized that the number of the 12 needed to be re-established for the authorized eyewitness ministry of the Twelve. So he said…) “One of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.”
• Revelation 21:14 – (Describing the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, John says that the foundations of the city were the twelve apostles.) “And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
• Ephesians 2:19-20 – (Similar to this Paul speaks of the apostles as the foundation of the church.) “You are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.”

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No problem with those Scriptures because that is what actually happened.
What will satisfy me is Jesus saying, "These gifts and the signs and wonders are just for the establishment of the church and then they will cease, because your role as Apostles is unique and none will follow after you" (Hezekiah 6:17). When you are able to show me that Scripture then I will accept your theory.

ICONO'CLAST said:

The Apostles and Nt. prophets were specially chosen instruments of God.

mk3
14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,

15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:

1jn1:
1 John 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

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Scripture is not the only rule of faith and practice it is not the first primary rule but it is the second

Read my post on this topic “The rule of faith and practice is not scripture alone”

The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

Also there are apostles AFTER the resurrection for the church (Ephesians 4:11-14). We read of other apostles than the twelve like Paul, Barnabas Timotheus, Silvanus, possibly Titus, etc.