Issues with religion

paul becke

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I think God has his Anawim in every religion, never forsakes them, always nurtures them. Although I am not saying that that absolves us from our duty to witness to Christ and his Gospel, at least by our demeanour and our lives.

Bear in mind that Christianity was never intended to be an intelligence test, a test of worldly intelligence ; it was meant as a cardiac test, a test of our wisdom, a test of our hearts. I like to think of it in terms of the choice between being greeted at the Pearly Gates by Pinochet or the kind of wonderful character, Irene Handel, used to play in those Ealing comedy films.

Ultimately, whether a religious believer or an atheist, we will choose what we wish to believe, since God has deliberately left wriggle-room for atheists, and yet intuitively the Christian, if he ponders it honestly, knows that he possesses the truth. His putative doubt is really a little petulant rebellion about some peripheral matter, such as the perceived hypocrisy of others (particularly by youngsters), failures of the church in many matters, etc. Cutting their nose to spite their face.

But this 'wishful thinking' is by no means necessarily fallacious. Why should the ultimate truth be ugly, cold and hard ; not to be wished for, not to be hoped for, undesirable ? The greatest paradigm-changers of science were all, not just routinely religious churchgoers, but, in popular parlance, 'religious nuts'. And that included Galileo, a firm believer who was only prevented from becoming a priest by his powerful father ; and who lived and died throughout his whole life as a devout Catholic and faithful son of the church.

Einstein, closer to a panentheist than anything, brought up the matter of God so often in his colloquies with Niels Bohr that Bohr told him to stop bringing Him into everything. On one occasion Einstein remarked : “My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.”

And as for Max Planck, a sidesman in the Lutheran church all his adult life, he turned physics upside down with his discovery of the highly paradoxical, thus a priori, 'mysterious' nature of matter as viewed by classical physics up to that time, on its head.

Watch the best NDE's on YouTube and clips of the Holy Shroud of Turin. Re those NDE's, for me the body language, the emotional effects of the subjects at the mere recollection of them, is uniquely convincing. No one could feign it.
 
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PaulCyp1

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It isn't a question of Allah vs. Jesus. It's a question of Mohammed vs. Jesus. These are the two founders of the two religions. Jesus clearly demonstrated that He was God, by constantly doing things only God could do. Mohammed didn't, because he couldn't.
 
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aiki

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Yes i know:) but i feel no one understand what i´m saying :) I believe in God, i believe in the bible. But that does not change the fact that what i believe in could be wrong in theory.

What do you mean by "wrong in theory"? Are you conflating what's possible with what's probable or likely? Not everything that is possible is probable. It is possible that the Bible could be wrong, but the evidence in favor of it being the divinely-inspired word of God, diminishes that possibility to next to zero.

The bible and God and everything else can´t be proven.

Oh? What do you mean by "proven"? There is certainly excellent evidence and argument in favor of God's existence and the veracity of the Bible. How much of these things is required before one can be confident one has the truth? Can you prove you aren't a brain in a vat, being deceived into thinking that the world around you is real? No. But you don't go about acting as though this possibility is true, do you? You don't need absolute proof that you aren't a brain in a vat to act like you aren't. Nor do you need absolute proof that the Bible is true and that God exists to reasonably believe these things.

That is why it´s called belief, and not facts.

Well, hang on, now. Yes, we must trust that what God says in His word to us is true. But He gives us factual, rational and even experiential grounds upon which to do so. The Christian faith is not blind or existing in a vacuum of solid, concrete reasons to believe.

ust because it says so in a book, is no proof,

Well, that depends upon the book, though, doesn't it? If the book that "says so" is the divinely-inspired word of God, there is very good reason to believe it.
 
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Jayfrost123

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Why do you assume a person's allegiance to the god of Islam is God's doing?



But questions of truth aren't decided by strength of conviction. Reason, evidence, facts, experience - these are the tools God has given to us by which we may discern what is true from what is false.



Are you saying Christians are not in touch with reality?



This is what happens when you don't know your own faith well and don't have proper fellowship with God.



www.crossexamined.org
www.reasonablefaith.org
www.str.org
www.coldcasechristianity.com
www.rzim.org[/QUOTE]
I mean reality as in my 5 physical senses. Whereas Christians are living according to a spirit being inside them.

I will admit i
Well, there is the very ample evidence in support of the claims to being true that the Bible makes. But more than this, there is the daily experience of God that a Christian person has. More than evidence or argument, the fellowship I have with God each day is the bedrock of my faith in Him.



Why do you assume a person's allegiance to the god of Islam is God's doing?



But questions of truth aren't decided by strength of conviction. Reason, evidence, facts, experience - these are the tools God has given to us by which we may discern what is true from what is false.



Are you saying Christians are not in touch with reality?



This is what happens when you don't know your own faith well and don't have proper fellowship with God.



www.crossexamined.org
www.reasonablefaith.org
www.str.org
www.coldcasechristianity.com
www.rzim.org
I'll admit that I don't know if it's Gods doing or not. There seems to be so many people in support of Islam and they pray to practically the same God under different teachings.

By reality I should've stated as in back to only my 5 physical senses, as opposed to supernatural senses. It felt like at one point the holy spirit left me which is really scary to me because so much now I fear hell and damnation even though I don't believe in it anymore. I can feel the void of nothingness beyond my death again.
 
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Toro

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There is more to it but to keep it short and sweet.

In Christianity, Jesus paid a debit we all owe but none could EVER hope to pay. (Without sin)

In general other religions it comes down to attempting to paying that debit through their own good deeds by out weighing their bad deeds.

The act of not accepting Christ as good enough to pay that debit they choose to pay the debit to God themselves (and as stated....we humans being born of Adam can not offer up perfection.)

Its NOT about Christian's being superior to Muslims... it is about nothing more than accepting Gods grace and mercy and living a life of gratitude and submission to the Father (God) as we who accept that mercy were bought at the price of His sons blood.

Christians are not better than a Muslim.... none of us are better than anyone.

Salvation/forgiveness is a gift, a gift is not earned but given freely in love. You cant FORCE someone to accept a gift.
 
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NeedyFollower

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How can we be so sure that Christianity is the truth and every other religion is false? Why would an all knowing God guide some to Allah and some to Jesus? Both parties have equally the same conviction of faith that they're in the truth.

I used to think I was a born again Christian until there were certain things that bought me back to reality and after I started to question some things I had issues on. I started to think maybe Christianity isn't the truth as I was reading into Islam and how they view the Bible. I got genuinely confused about religion.

Why do we believe in God and how is faith reliable? I've been at that state before of feeling like you're in the truth and that God is with you etc, but is God actually there?

Cheers
Hi Jay ..I am very excited for you for a couple of reasons . For one , you seem to be truly seeking and honest . ( If you recall when Nathaniel made the comment " Can any any good thing come out of Nazareth ..Jesus said , truly a man of Israel in whom there is no guile ...in other words , Nathaniel was honest about what he thought ...just like a little child . ) We are told to seek and we will find ..knock and the door will be opened . Also , without faith it is impossible to please God for we must believe that He is AND that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him . That is not to be confused with " Those who got saved and sought him at some point ...any more than a child gets born and stops growing into a human . I believe there are many head christians but being a heart christian is different ...this is His work and He is faithful . In some ways I wish more christians would "get lost " so they could be found by Him . Not theological but one of the things I ask atheist is did we invent music with all of its harmonies , major chords and minor chords ...did music evolve or did it exist and we discover it ? I would say it is a gift .
Regarding who is the best representative of God only Jews , Christians and Muslims hold to one God ...and nature demonstrates we have one earthly father so for me , that rules out Hinduism and Buddhism is not really about God . Apart from personal faith in knowing God and loving Him ...I look for paradoxes ..Jesus said to learn of him , He is lowly of heart and meek . And elsewhere he told Philip ..he that seeth me hath seen the Father and Jesus said He did nothing but what the Father has shown Him . So that can only mean that our heavenly Father is humble ... No wonder it says that God gives grace to the humble but He is in opposition to the proud ...How beautiful that God is humble . Seek Him with all of your heart for He is beautiful in His lowliness ..He will not hide from you .
 
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St_Worm2

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I think God has his Anawim in every religion, never forsakes them, always nurtures them. Although I am not saying that that absolves us from our duty to witness to Christ and his Gospel, at least by our demeanour and our lives.
Hi Paul, this is a thread-drift question, but I thought it important enough to ask (obviously), so here goes.

If it truly is, "our duty to witness to Christ and His Gospel" (and I agree with you that it is), how can that be done "by our demeanor and our lives" alone :scratch: After all, St. Paul tells us plainly that, faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ .. Romans 10:17.

I think we all know what St. Francis is ~supposed~ to have said concerning this (that we can preach the Gospel w/o using words) but, unfortunately, this claim by others about him amounts to nothing more than a fabrication/lie. Both his writings, and the busy life that we know he led as an itinerant preacher/evangelist, tell us that it isn't true (not to mention the fact that such a thought directly opposes what the Bible has to say, as well what simple, common sense tells us, yes ;)).

If you've not seen/read it before, here is an interesting article from the National Catholic Register that addresses this subject directly: What St. Francis of Assisi Didn’t Actually Say

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - do I wish that we didn't have to use words and could "preach the Gospel" to those who have never heard of Jesus and/or the Gospel by simply being kind, nice, and helpful? YOU BET :tutu:

Mark 16
15 Jesus said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to all creation".
 
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zoidar

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How can we be so sure that Christianity is the truth and every other religion is false? Why would an all knowing God guide some to Allah and some to Jesus? Both parties have equally the same conviction of faith that they're in the truth.

I used to think I was a born again Christian until there were certain things that bought me back to reality and after I started to question some things I had issues on. I started to think maybe Christianity isn't the truth as I was reading into Islam and how they view the Bible. I got genuinely confused about religion.

Why do we believe in God and how is faith reliable? I've been at that state before of feeling like you're in the truth and that God is with you etc, but is God actually there?

Cheers

That's one of the things about Islam, Christianity and Judaism, they all make claims on the same God. Doctrinally we couldn't be more different but at the heart of the whole thing, we all believe in God Almighty being the judge of the living and the dead. I served in Afghanistan, I saw Muslims stop working on Friday for Friday prayers. I saw them in merciless heat observe Ramadan faithfully, and no food or water in the scorching sun had to be miserable. If God isn't there what could motivate people to long to worship and serve him with such deep devotion?

I'm a history buff, thoroughly enjoying wading through what I can glean from the pages of history. Man seeks to worship something, this much is clear. The New Testament explains this as natural revelation (Romans 1:18-21). Even raised a Catholic somewhat and always having an interest in Christianity I really never thought knowing God in a personal way was an actual option. Then one night in prayer I found out differently, but that's just one man's experience, there are other voices out in the world.

I wish you strength for the journey and answers to these profoundly important questions you have seen fit to consider. I would make just one suggestion my friend, try asking God to show you. I know that sounds so superficial it's almost comical but it's been my experience if you do, he just might.

Grace and peace,
Mark

My experience is a bit like Mark's, I prayed and God answered. There may be some good books out there that make a good case for the risen Christ, but I think you need through experience know that Christ lives. The good thing is that you don't need to know now to find out. Seek God with you whole heart and see what answers you will find.

Christ love,
P
 
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aiki

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I mean reality as in my 5 physical senses. Whereas Christians are living according to a spirit being inside them.

Well, Christians may have a spiritual dimension to their lives but this doesn't mean they lose touch with their physical senses.

I'll admit that I don't know if it's Gods doing or not. There seems to be so many people in support of Islam and they pray to practically the same God under different teachings.

No, Muslims do not pray to the same God as Christians. Not at all. Allah is unlike Jehovah in some very crucial respects. Allah is not a Trinitarian god. Allah does not love the whole world. He hates the infidel and those who don't love and worship him. Allah does not reach down to humanity; humanity must try to reach up to him. The god of the Muslim is aloof, cold, temperamental, and full of wrath.

By reality I should've stated as in back to only my 5 physical senses, as opposed to supernatural senses.

I don't know what you mean by "supernatural senses." I read of such "senses" no where in the Bible.

It felt like at one point the holy spirit left me which is really scary to me because so much now I fear hell and damnation even though I don't believe in it anymore. I can feel the void of nothingness beyond my death again.

How did you know you had the Holy Spirit to begin with? How do you know He left you? I see nothing in the Bible that indicates when a person is truly saved and the Spirit comes to dwell within that person, that the Holy Spirit may at some point withdraw. God promises that He will never leave nor forsake His children.
 
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Blade

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If one read the Quran you find.. you can NEVER know this god.. nor ever hear from him. If one just searched the names of Allah vs God in the word.. seems Allah names match someone else in the bible..and its not God. Its not the same God... they do not say.. The God of Abraham Issac and Jacob.. they change the ending..

What I LOVE about Muslims is they know the Quran.. they are what God would call cold.. they know the Quran.. have to memorize it. Ask any believer.. how much do you read the bible every day? How many hours do you pray a day? On and on..

For me.. I dont have to prove He is real.. all YOU Jay have to do is ASK! The key here is to ask from your heart.. Yeshua is real...this is why so many Muslims are coming to Christ.. they are just ASKING and when they do.. HE ANSWERS SHOWS UP! Because they really truly need to know the TRUTH..and the TRUTH is Christ..

And also the Quran was founded what 600y after Christ...so Jay... ask Him.. ask ANY so called god out there. only ONE will answer.. there is only ONE TRUE GOD! A man in prison some know this true story.. he was muslim.. prayed and fasted for over a week.. to hear form Allah.. Allah never answered. So he was about to give up.. then this thing.. all in white.. show'd up in his cell. He said.. he felt such shame all the sin he had done.. ran in the corner and said..over and over forgive me forgive me..he noticed holes in the hands.. this being said....when he asked.. who are you? The being said.. I am the way the truth and the life.. the man said..that means nothing to me.. He said.. I am Jesus.. ...Jesus asked him..how easy was it for me to forgive you? The man said like drinking water..

Jesus said.. as easy as it it was for me to forgive you.. I will forgive them.. see Jesus show'd him a vision of people in the world that didnt know him...

I am sure I left parts of that story out.. what I love about it. I seen the man tell this story like 20y later.. and I have never seen a man cry so hard when he got to when Christ show'd up.. he STILL could not stop crying..

This does not make it true..but I KNOW of SO many more stories like this.. where some NEVER also heard of JESUS.. JESUS IS REAL! Ask him
 
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How can we be so sure that Christianity is the truth and every other religion is false? Why would an all knowing God guide some to Allah and some to Jesus? Both parties have equally the same conviction of faith that they're in the truth.

I used to think I was a born again Christian until there were certain things that bought me back to reality and after I started to question some things I had issues on. I started to think maybe Christianity isn't the truth as I was reading into Islam and how they view the Bible. I got genuinely confused about religion.

Why do we believe in God and how is faith reliable? I've been at that state before of feeling like you're in the truth and that God is with you etc, but is God actually there?

Cheers

The Bible is the only book whereby you can experience true forgiveness, and have a true love, and peace from the real and living GOD unlike other false religions.

Most religions try to attack the Bible by adding their own holy book (Including Islam). You do not see a ton of religions trying to form around the Koran because it doesn't mean anything or have any real value to transform your soul and heart.

Jesus is also the only person who has died for your sins, and no other religious leader has died for your sins.

The Bible also has far more evidences backing it up that it is indeed divine than any other holy book out there. It claims it is the Word of God many times and has the credentials to back up that statement.

Here are many evidences that back up the Word of God:

Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

I would encourage you to check out all the resources in this blogger article (if you have not done so).
 
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Sketcher

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How can we be so sure that Christianity is the truth and every other religion is false? Why would an all knowing God guide some to Allah and some to Jesus? Both parties have equally the same conviction of faith that they're in the truth.

I used to think I was a born again Christian until there were certain things that bought me back to reality and after I started to question some things I had issues on. I started to think maybe Christianity isn't the truth as I was reading into Islam and how they view the Bible. I got genuinely confused about religion.
Why would you presume that God guides anyone to Islam?

Why do we believe in God and how is faith reliable? I've been at that state before of feeling like you're in the truth and that God is with you etc, but is God actually there?
Islam literally has the exact same problem.
 
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mindlight

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How can we be so sure that Christianity is the truth and every other religion is false? Why would an all knowing God guide some to Allah and some to Jesus? Both parties have equally the same conviction of faith that they're in the truth.

I used to think I was a born again Christian until there were certain things that bought me back to reality and after I started to question some things I had issues on. I started to think maybe Christianity isn't the truth as I was reading into Islam and how they view the Bible. I got genuinely confused about religion.

Why do we believe in God and how is faith reliable? I've been at that state before of feeling like you're in the truth and that God is with you etc, but is God actually there?

Cheers

The choice comes down to Mohammed or Jesus.

Mohammed:

1) slept with 10 year olds (Aisha)
2) made no prophecies that actually were predictions of future events but called himself a prophet nonetheless
3) Borrowed much of his material from earlier Christian sources and then had the cheek to say God dictated the words to him
4) Offers you no assurance of salvation
5) Said various things in the Koran which just are not true. e.g. Christian view of Trinity is not Father, Son and Mary, Jesus did die on a cross in front of eyewitnesses.
6) ……….the list is a long one but if you need more....

Jesus:
1) Performed miracles in front of thousands of witnesses. Even the Jews described him as a magic worker or someone working for the devil rather than deny the power he demonstrated.
2) Fulfilled previous prophecies - the whole of the Old Testament in fact. Unlike Mohammed who is a standalone prophet.
3) Made prophecies that came true later e.g. Fall of Jerusalem.
4) Was witnessed to have risen from the dead by 500 physical eyewitnesses. Many of whom would later die defending the testimony of what they had seen
5) Has the larger following. So he is the one to beat not Mohammed. Also more of his followers are added by conversion than mere birth rates which is a test of credibility.
6) Provided a mechanism by which you can be saved and be assured of your salvation. The cross atones for your sin and Jesus has promised to forgive you and welcome you into his Kingdom with repentance and confession.
7) The positive list is much longer than Mohammeds negative one... including love, character, honesty,the possibility of intimacy with God, textual veracity and audit trail.....
 
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JacksBratt

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How can we be so sure that Christianity is the truth and every other religion is false? Why would an all knowing God guide some to Allah and some to Jesus? Both parties have equally the same conviction of faith that they're in the truth.

I used to think I was a born again Christian until there were certain things that bought me back to reality and after I started to question some things I had issues on. I started to think maybe Christianity isn't the truth as I was reading into Islam and how they view the Bible. I got genuinely confused about religion.

Why do we believe in God and how is faith reliable? I've been at that state before of feeling like you're in the truth and that God is with you etc, but is God actually there?

Cheers
There are several things that, if you don't have faith, prove that Christianity, or following Christ, is true.
First, There are 100's of manuscripts that were written within the first 70 years of Christ's death, that detail what is in our canonical scriptures. No other pivotal documents, such as the works of Socrates, and other men of worthy philosophy that is held as rock solid truth to what they said. Even the Koran was told by word of mouth for centuries before it was put to paper. They were all written hundreds of years later and have sparse few number of written documents in comparison to the biblical texts.

Second, there are non biblical historical records that back up the canon. It is not an issue of historic question as to whether Christ lived and died and rose from the dead... There are enough documents from various non christian sources that back this up.

Third, the bible is so historically accurate that there are numerous archaeological sites that were found by using the Bible as one of the documents to locate and date historical sites.


Having said that... You can follow whatever religious or conceptual ancient view that you want.... However, the Bible stands and has been authenticated several times by ancient scrolls found in our recent history, that dispel arguments contrary to biblical accuracy.

When I was younger, I believed the Bible due to my upbringing. As I got older, I was surprised that people would ask questions similar to yours.

After doing some investigation, which is phenomenally easier and faster, now, with the internet, I have found numerous presentations, books and sermons, by very credible sources that easily put the Bible into it's proper place as a solid historical account of the history of this world, the timing of the events the accuracy of the many documents.. and the proof that Christ lived as it is written.
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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How can we be so sure that Christianity is the truth and every other religion is false? Why would an all knowing God guide some to Allah and some to Jesus? Both parties have equally the same conviction of faith that they're in the truth.

I used to think I was a born again Christian until there were certain things that bought me back to reality and after I started to question some things I had issues on. I started to think maybe Christianity isn't the truth as I was reading into Islam and how they view the Bible. I got genuinely confused about religion.

Why do we believe in God and how is faith reliable? I've been at that state before of feeling like you're in the truth and that God is with you etc, but is God actually there?

Cheers

I believe in our Scriptures, because God used them to wake me up, when I didn't even believe He did such a thing.

I was listening for understanding as I was relatively ignorant and had gotten drafted in a virtually dead mainline church to teach the four and five year olds. I started with an NIV New Testament on CD. I was a pharmaceutical rep, so I had a lot of time to listen while driving. I can't tell you how many times I hit that "go back" button to gain understanding. But I am sure I went back about 20 times or more on some chapters. The more I listened (intent on understanding) the more I wanted to listen. Then, one day, God woke me up to the most amazing peace, joy, and continued hunger and thirst for Him. Over 16 years later, I still can't get enough.

So, because there is Life born out of those Scriptures, I believe those Scriptures. In those Scriptures, I am told of a God who is not a man and does not lie. In those Scriptures, they tell me about Jesus Christ dying for me and setting up the exact scenario where God could wake me up, because of what He did.

Josh McDowell talks about your dilemma. He talks about how mohammed, who claims to be a greater prophet than Jesus, died and is still in his grave. But, we are told that Jesus Christ rose. And, in early church literature,we are told how almost all of the original Apostles (including Paul and only John excepted) were martyred for their faith and unlike everyone who followed them, THESE MEN would have known if Jesus didn't rise and what they were teaching were lies. The Jewish faith and the Muslim faith necessarily includes the belief that Jesus wasn't who He said He was, didn't die and wasn't resurrected. So, for the purest Christian faith to be correct, the others necessarily aren't.

We all have faith. It's just a matter of what we put it in. You have faith that traffic lights will work they way they should and that your car brakes will work the way you need them to and that others will do what they are supposed to do so they don't get in an accident with you. If you didn't, you wouldn't get in a car.

So, for me, since God woke me up using His Scriptures, I believe in those Scriptures and I believe in the God they declare brings life through His Word and His Spirit. So, my faith is in those Scriptures that the rest of what they tell me is true, as well.

You have to decide what you want to put your faith in. If you decide that the Christian Scriptures and the God they speak of are True, then you have got to make your home there!
 
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How can we be so sure that Christianity is the truth and every other religion is false? Why would an all knowing God guide some to Allah and some to Jesus? Both parties have equally the same conviction of faith that they're in the truth.

I used to think I was a born again Christian until there were certain things that bought me back to reality and after I started to question some things I had issues on. I started to think maybe Christianity isn't the truth as I was reading into Islam and how they view the Bible. I got genuinely confused about religion.

Why do we believe in God and how is faith reliable? I've been at that state before of feeling like you're in the truth and that God is with you etc, but is God actually there? Cheers
For starters you have to read the Bible because Islam is the false religion.
Genesis 25:34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.

Obadiah 1:18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.

Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S

The reason that Islam is the false religion is becaue Esau was a profane man who sold his birthright.
Hebrews 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

Are there any other reasons?

There are some so called Christians who believe that there is a Satan, just like the false religion of Islam believes in a Jinn. A true Christian knows that anyone who thinks there is a devil, Satan, Jinn, is not reading the Bible and is following what man thinks and not what the Bible teaches.

Matthew 16:23 Get thee behind me, Satan - Υπαγε οπισω μου σατανα. Get behind me, thou adversary. This is the proper translation of the Hebrew word שטן Satan, from which the Greek word is taken. [CLARKE]

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Is a devil - Has the spirit, the envy, the malice, and the treasonable designs of a devil. The word “devil” here is used in the sense of an enemy, or one hostile to him. [BARNES]

In the case of Judas it was the love of money; that swayed his heart by the adversaries, that is the chief priests and elders, and it was necessary to present to him only the possibility of obtaining money, and it found him ready for any crime.

It was not a literal satan that fell, it was the figure of all superstitions about demons. The phrase “from heaven” is to be referred to the lightning, and does not mean that he saw “Satan” fall “from heaven,” but that he fell as quick as lightning [falls] from heaven or from the clouds.

Luke 10:18
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. And Paul said in 2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

The case of tēi sarki can be either locative (in) or dative (for). What was it? Certainly it was some physical malady that persisted. All sorts of theories are held (malaria, eye-trouble, epilepsy, insomnia, migraine or sick-headache, etc.). Messenger of Satan (aggelos Satana). Angel of Satan, the affliction personified.[RWP]

Another mode of expressing what he calls the thorn in the flesh; and he seems most plainly to refer to the false apostle at Corinth. [CLARKE]

Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.
While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.

When you consider what Job says in chapter 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Job says that all the evil which the LORD had brought upon him Job 42:11

The Satan doctrine is one of the most deceptive and corrupt doctrines to ever enter Christendom, (and Islam) and which has been embraced and promoted by false teachers for thousands of years in as much as from the hand of God only good can come, but against him, the Creator of the universe, no opposing being could originally exist but through their own fault they fell (John 8, 44; 2 Peter 2, 4; Jude 6);when Christ shall appear to overthrow the kingdom of [death] (1 Corinthians 15, 26; Hebrews 2, 14; 1 John 2, 8). SEE Winer, 2, 385

 
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SPF

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But that does not change the fact that what i believe in could be wrong in theory. The bible and God and everything else can´t be proven. That is why it´s called belief, and not facts. It´s only true because we make it true, it´s our truth, in reality it could as easily be wrong. Just because it says so in a book, is no proof, but i do understand you, and where you are comming from:)
I think this response here is a testimony to the influences of secular philosophy in our world. I bolded and underlined the important part of your paragraph. You've actually changed and redefined "truth" by making this statement. The most simple and basic definition of Truth would be this: "Truth is that which corresponds to reality." Truth is not subjective. If something corresponds to reality, then it is true. If it does not, then it is false. This is important to understand.

Based upon what you said, in looking at the passages below, they contradict each other. Imagine for a minute you're having a discussion with Luke, and he says the below to you:

"it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Soul-searching; so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught."

Would you be tempted to smile at Luke and correct him and tell him that while you appreciate that he believes what he's saying, he actually could be wrong, and that's why it's called belief, not facts. The problem with that is that Scripture is inspired by God, Himself. So I wouldn't want to find myself in the position of contradicting what someone in Scripture said. And this notion isn't confined to just Luke.

Consider what Jesus Himself said:

..."and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

If Jesus said that to you, would be tempted to say, well yes, that's your truth, and while I may believe what you're saying, I can't actually know that it's the truth, that's why it's called belief and not facts. Would you say that to Jesus in response to what He said?

Luke and Jesus aren't alone in this idea that we can know the truth. Listen to what Paul said in writing a letter to Timothy:

"...who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Knowledge AND Truth used in the same sentence. Would you be tempted to tell Paul that he's wrong and that we can't actually have knowledge of the truth and that we instead just have belief in something we hope to be the Truth? Is Paul wrong?

William Lane Craig is one of the most brilliant philosophical minds of our day. I don't qualify that statement and say one of the most brilliant Christian philosophical minds, because he is indeed a Christian, but he is simply one of the most brilliant philosophical minds of our day. He has had dozens of debates with well known atheists which I recommend everyone go and watch on YouTube.

The point though is that he has gotten a lot of ridicule because he has been willing to say that even if it was "proved" beyond a shadow of a doubt that Christianity was false - that he would still believe. That's a shocking thing for a true philosopher to say. Yet, he says it because he claims to know that Christianity is true because the Spirit in him testifies to the truth. And even at the end of the day, even if the entire world no longer believed in God, he would still know that Christ rose from the dead because of his personal experience. That's bold. That's counter to everything secular culture teaches. Yet, that is consistent with Scripture.

For everyone struggling with their faith. The answer is to immerse yourself in Scripture. The answer is to put forth real effort in seeking to know God. Because He promises to reveal Himself to us.
 
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old me

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Hi Jay,

To know truth requires discerning true from false, right from wrong, and a person who discerns truth must be precise in judgement, not having any bias that can compromise their better judgement, that is to corrupt and prejudice their decisions. So in that way, truth and justice are intrinsically associated to righteousness (to be "morally justifiable").

As far as truth goes, that is what we are talking about: judging right and wrong for any given case.

When you say "how can we be sure that Christianity is the truth", it's sort of a difficult question to answer so generally, because from my experience, I know that there are people who teach things that they say are Christian, but that are not true! .. and the bible itself tells us why this happens.

So that is the nature of what we are talking about .. that there are people of all religious persuasions (indeed even non-religious people), who have an interest in thinking, discussing, and knowing the truth, and the bible itself is a collection of writings of people who have been of that pursuit according to a knowledge of faith in God that originates with the Hebrew people, and that has gone worldwide over the last 2,000 years.

Jesus famously said to Pilate "You say that I am a king; it is for this purpose that I came to the world: to testify to the truth. All who are of the truth hear me".. which, when we get further into the knowledge of spirituality, we recognise that He was saying those words not as a mere man, but as a spirit that does not die: The Holy Spirit. That same Holy Spirit was there in the beginning, which is how He said John 8:58, and He is with us even until this day, which is what He promised in John 15:14-18 and Matthew 24:35.

When we come to know Him in that way, we realise that He loves and leads people in all cultures and religions, and that is how He has said in John 10:16 "I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must lead those too, and they will listen to my voice. So they will be one one flock, with one shepherd". What He is saying by that, in more literal language, is that the sheep are common people while He is a shepherd (a king/leader), and that they are of a different "sheepfold" - that is to say, they are of a different group of people than the Hebrews He was of, in those days. He said that they would hear His voice, that is to say that He is speaking as a spirit and they would recognise Him when He speaks, so that there will come to be a united group of people from all races and religions, who have a personal relationship with Him, as a spirit.

The only thing that divides us, if we are united in spirit and following the same leader, is our individual knowledge/beliefs/culture etc.. that means to say that although I have a good knowledge of the bible while another of His sheep might have a good knowledge of Koran or Bhagavad Gita, that if we are patient in sharing with each other and not being sinful (that is pride, envy etc), then we can agree to the universal truth through coming to understand the language we each use!

.. So, you see that understanding/knowledge is more about a mind having a comprehension than the words of the scripture that has been the cause of that comprehension .. and yet, the words themselves are useful for forming comprehensions, so it follows that some scriptures (and even some translations compared to others) are particularly more useful to teaching truth than others.

It is not all God's work, and Christianity teaches that this has been the problem ever since Adam and Eve disobeyed God. The underlying sin that Eve committed in the first place was to not trust God and to not obey God, but she was tempted by the serpent: "Genesis 3:5-6 - For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eyes, and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom, she took the fruit and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, and he ate it."

We can see through all of the rest of the scripture, there has been a never-ending fight about what is the truth about God - culminating in the major event that Jesus was crucified in the name of God, while being the only-begotten of God (born to a virgin and having authority to speak and act AS God on earth).

So the problem is that humans cannot agree to the truth. They do not love the truth enough, and it gets more serious than that, because the sin in them is what causes them to become opposed to the truth.

What you might be seeing, for example, is within yourself, you are thinking that I am not giving you everything that you need as I say this, and you are being tempted to respond to me not with gratefulness and a holy ("without sin") spirit to ask for further clarification, but with hate in order to express some anger at my failure to be perfectly what you want. (Ok, you might not be that sort of person, but there is such a type of person as that, and that is the problem: 1 John 4:18-21, 1 John 3:14-15).

Whenever people are tempted to act that way, they are not doing love to their neighbour - and it is always because of sin. (This is stuff that they should be teaching us in school!). So I understand sin according to the Seven Deadly Sins, and I understand love as "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". But the whole pursuit of Christian knowledge is understanding what love is, and what sin is, and why humans are so imperfect in love despite that they don't really need to be! .. and that pursuit of knowledge really goes beyond whatever a religion is.. it is the knowledge of the ultimate truth, itself; and there are people who love to think and talk about those matters and we can have good conversations and agree on lots of things, regardless of what our religious background is.

But not all religious people are as open-minded as that, and it is far more common to get offended and hurt by the ignorance of religious people, that causes people to retreat into groups, and guard each other, for safety so that they don't get offended by that clash of culture.. that's how there are so many religions (and denominations within them).

Have some patience when you go through this booklet, and think about what the given verse is saying in context of the topic.. because some of the quotes are a bit of a stretch, but if you really think about it and understand what it is saying, then you will get the greater comprehension and by the end of the booklet you will understand what the problem is that makes Christianity seem to be so confusing.

Everyone has a different answer to that question. For me, there is a lot I can say about my testimony, but ultimately it is because I asked God to show me the truth and as soon as I opened my ear to hear Him, it all made sense. He has always been faithful in leading me to understand the truth that I have sought ever since, and I have such an understanding of the reality of our existence that is reliable and real, that I just know that I'm onto the real thing. But that's just me, and most people who have faith didn't actually ask God for that.

:) You know, most people don't actually get to see God when He is with us, although He does give us that promise in Matthew 18:20. It really is about coming to know who He is, as a spirit in our midst (John 4:23-24).
 
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paul becke

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Hi Paul, this is a thread-drift question, but I thought it important enough to ask (obviously), so here goes.

If it truly is, "our duty to witness to Christ and His Gospel" (and I agree with you that it is), how can that be done "by our demeanor and our lives" alone :scratch: After all, St. Paul tells us plainly that, faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ .. Romans 10:17.

I think we all know what St. Francis is ~supposed~ to have said concerning this (that we can preach the Gospel w/o using words) but, unfortunately, this claim by others about him amounts to nothing more than a fabrication/lie. Both his writings, and the busy life that we know he led as an itinerant preacher/evangelist, tell us that it isn't true (not to mention the fact that such a thought directly opposes what the Bible has to say, as well what simple, common sense tells us, yes ;)).

If you've not seen/read it before, here is an interesting article from the National Catholic Register that addresses this subject directly: What St. Francis of Assisi Didn’t Actually Say

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - do I wish that we didn't have to use words and could "preach the Gospel" to those who have never heard of Jesus and/or the Gospel by simply being kind, nice, and helpful? YOU BET :tutu:

Mark 16
15 Jesus said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to all creation".
I know what you mean, Worm2 and I've thought so myself, mentioning it to a Jesuit priest who has been a mostly long-distance friend of mine almost 50 years ago.

Was the receptivity of St Francis contemporaries less jaded than the atheists of our day, who think they've heard it all. If anyone shows an interest as lads in the army used to after a few drinks, I'm all too happy to evangelise. However, normally, they would have been more inclined to ask saved from what ? Most serious conversions occurring at a time of great crisis in person's life.

On the other hand, young people today are, I'm told largely ignorant of Christianity, so in their milieu I'd perhaps be more proactive in that regard. I certainly don't baulk at mentioning God in my normal conversation.
 
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Radagast

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Islam says the Koran is God's word and the Bible is corrupt, but the Bible says the opposite.

The many manuscripts we have of the New Testament, going back to the 2nd century, show that the Bible was not corrupted, as they claim.

I used to think I was a born again Christian until there were certain things that bought me back to reality

Would you care to share what those things are?

And, by the way, do you attend a church at all?
 
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