Issues with religion

[SolomonVII]

How can we be so sure that Christianity is the truth and every other religion is false? Why would an all knowing God guide some to Allah and some to Jesus? Both parties have equally the same conviction of faith that they're in the truth.

I used to think I was a born again Christian until there were certain things that bought me back to reality and after I started to question some things I had issues on. I started to think maybe Christianity isn't the truth as I was reading into Islam and how they view the Bible. I got genuinely confused about religion.

Why do we believe in God and how is faith reliable? I've been at that state before of feeling like you're in the truth and that God is with you etc, but is God actually there?

Cheers

We are assured of the truth of Christianity through living it. We have no assurance that God does not communicate through vehicles other than his Christian church though.

The number of 'truths' one can live out are virtually unlimited. Buddhist, Hindu, Islam, material secularism, there are unlimited ways that we can be molded into any amount of different understandings of the world.
God is the Alpha and Omega. He is where we begin from and where we want to end up. We are of his nature; we are already there, and we are developing to be at one with him in more mature ways all the time.
All belief systems have this feature, a nature that set the parameters of who we are, and a goal to be all we can be. If freedom and redemption, and a boisterous conversation with God and all that is good and powerful and pragmatically true are the goal, then this is something that Christianity strives for, and Judaism too, in a different way.
If submission is the goal, bringing law to society and instilling caliphs to submit to as to a law is the goal, then Islam is the choice that is more suited to the kind of truth that motivates you.

 

[EzekielsWheels]

Christianity is not predicated on certainty, Christianity is predicated on faith. I think this might be a misconception about Christianity that we have consulted some formula and come to the conclusion that Christ is Lord. While people have made such arguments I think it really comes down to God calling you and loving you and you responding to that, otherwise you will be blinded to the truth. If someone wants a bulletproof theory of Christianity they won't get it, but if they want the love of God ask and you shall receive.

 

[EzekielsWheels]

I can testify that I have seen two people look at what I would consider a miracle and one saw it and one did not acknowledge it at all. Life itself is a miracle and yet we take it as a given. If you assume away God as a priori to all things then you can make a lot of arguments about how the world works or the meaning of life because you've assumed away the fundamental cause of all things.

 

[Ing Bee]

We can´t be sure that Christianity or other religions are true, that´s why it´s called belief, and not knowledge. There is a huge difference of the truth and something we think is true. Something we think is true, does not need to be the truth. There is personal truth, which is individual for everyone. That does not make our truth less true, but it has nothing to do with the proven truth.

Hi Soul-searching-

I find it helpful to define terms clearly when discussing important topics like this. Would you mind clarifying two of your comments for me?

1) I agree with you when you say, "There is a huge difference of the truth and something we think is true", but I am confused by your last sentence since "our truth" IS less true if doesn't conform to reality. Obviously our false beliefs can have real "true" effects (e.g. people with paranoid delusions will likely become isolated by their constant mistrust and accusations of their friends and family). Do you mean that subjective truth "feels" true experientially – like a paranoid person really feels that everyone is out to get him even though no one is?

2) In your understanding, how do the biblical authors define the concept of "belief"? Can you give some examples of bible passages demonstrating your understanding of "belief"?

Thanks in advance-

Ing Bee

 

[Ing Bee]

How can we be so sure that Christianity is the truth and every other religion is false? Why would an all knowing God guide some to Allah and some to Jesus? Both parties have equally the same conviction of faith that they're in the truth.

I used to think I was a born again Christian until there were certain things that bought me back to reality and after I started to question some things I had issues on. I started to think maybe Christianity isn't the truth as I was reading into Islam and how they view the Bible. I got genuinely confused about religion.

Why do we believe in God and how is faith reliable? I've been at that state before of feeling like you're in the truth and that God is with you etc, but is God actually there?

Cheers

Hi Jay-

For about 3 years, I've been on a pretty intense "knowing venture",* one that I think can help offer some clarity. I think your fundamental question is framed in a less-than-helpful way since there are some mis-defined terms and hidden assumptions smuggled into it. These can go unnoticed because almost everyone gets fired-up about the questions without looking at the ideas IN the questions and asking if they are true. Here are 4 points to consider in tackling the questions you're wrestling with:

1. I have noticed a shared tendency (Christians and Non-Christians alike) to treat God as a concept to be proved rather than a person to be known.

If God is a thing, a concept, we have to use technique, reason, logic, etc. to prove His existence and nature. After all, that is what scientific rationalism is. For atheists, since God is not subject to the laboratory, they conclude he doesn't exist or can have no impact in reality. They misdefine "faith" as wishful thinking at best, and irrationality (or delusion) at worst.

For our part, Christians expend vast amounts of energy to stave off this criticism through logical arguments, historical and textual evidence and other methods. While I have great confidence in the historical foundations of Christianity and those who have enriched our knowledge of those foundations**, this pursuit is not the central focus of the Gospel message which is this: through Jesus's life, death and resurrection (yes, in history), we have been brought into a new, interpersonal relationship of adoption into God's family. (John 1:12, Ephesians 1:3-14, Titus 3:3-7, 1 Peter 1:3-6, 2 Peter 1:3-4, etc.).

2. Faith is the correct "toolkit" for interpersonal (rather than scientific ) investigation
All interpersonal relationships follow these two repeated steps:

• Person 1 self-discloses to Person 2. I use the phrase "self-disclosure" but we could also use the word "revelation". When I began to know my wife, I had to let her see me physically, intellectually, and emotionally. If I never did, she could never know me.

• Person 2 trustingly cooperates with Person 1's self-disclosure. If my wife-to-be had not trusted me and then cooperated by revealing herself and choosing to learn more and share more, our relationship would never have got off the ground.

This two-step dance is a repeated cycle. Prudence in human relationships is fine, but if we insist on background checks, tests, comparison with other options, etc. we are not actually IN an interpersonal relationship, the sharing of mind, desires and emotions. If we believe someone has really asked us to go to coffee and we want to go to coffee, we say "Sure, let's get coffee!" If we believe God is who he said he is and that he has done and will do everything he says in, to and through us, then we "trustingly cooperate" with that personal self-disclosure by living our lives as if it's all true. Just like a human relationship, we can start a relationship with God before we are %100 sure of (or completely understand) all the specifics.

This is why we can't treat "faith" as either something mystical or as something inferior to reason. We exercise interpersonal trust EVERY SINGLE DAY. That is because trust/faith is a relational tool , not a forensic concept. In reality, employing trust/faith in a worthy person is almost always better than employing reason (which is really just trusting our own limited capacities).

In the Bible, "faith" always means active, relational trust in the character and promises of God. This is a massive and unbridgeable chasm separating Christianity (an interpersonal love relationship with our Creator) from every other religion. For example, in Islam, "faith" is functionally identical to obedience in a legal sense (i.e. 'Follow the rules in order to not be punished and to possibly attain paradise'). In the gospel, God has shown his mind, will and emotions toward us by dying at the hands of his human creatures on our behalf in order to "demonstrate [the quality of] his own love for us" (Romans 5:8), and to "bring many sons to glory". (Hebrews 2:10)

3. Yahweh, the tri-personal God of everything is a free agent.
In Luke 19:10 Jesus said that he came to "seek and save the lost". In John 6:44, we learn that the Father is active in drawing people to the Son. In John 16, the Holy Spirit is being sent to "convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment" so that human hearts are prepared to receive the Son. There is no other expression of Divine love that parallels the active, seeking, rescuing love of the Father, Son and Spirit, the "Magnificent Three"***.

• Allah doesn't act this way. He doesn't "send his Son into the world…that the world through him might be saved" (John 3:17).
• Allah doesn't "empty himself, taking on the form of a servant" so he could die on a cross in our place (Philippians 2:5-8).
• Allah doesn't offer adoption as co-heirs with Christ into the Divine nature, not because of our righteousness, but because of the perfect sacrifice of Jesus (Ephesians 1:3-14)

I used to get sad when I shared the good news with someone and they rejected it, or when I heard that someone who had professed trust in Christ turned their back on the Savior for whatever reason. That doesn't bother me as much anymore because this God who has self-disclosed in history and especially in Jesus (Hebrews 1:1-2) is a free agent who goes where he wants, changing hearts (John 3:8) and turns enemies into Sons (Romans 5:8).

4. Your human understanding of human relationships is an excellent guide to knowing God
Made in the likeness of God, created for relationship with him and each other, the gospel is a call to deep, familial, interpersonal love. He "fully knows us" and has "given us everything we need for life and godliness" (2 Peter 1:3). He has fully revealed the depth of his love for us on the cross and his plans for our future. Now we respond with trusting cooperation. It's not mystical. It is exactly how we relate to humans.

God has shown us who he is in every way that one person can self-disclose to another person (through what he has made (Romans 1:20), through talking (Hebrews 1:1), through his actions in history (the whole Bible), through personally coming (Hebrews 1:2, John 14:9-10), and through the personal experience of the Holy Spirit, God's love poured into our hearts (Romans 5:5).


I hope that helps. I have confidence in the seeking and saving God so I'm not too worried about your doubts. This is the kind of person He is. I will say that Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses and every other works-based religious system have this in common, all of them enable a person to be at the center of their salvation story. But that is not the interpersonal reality offered in the Bible. It's scary to involve someone else. Will they really be there for me? Will they let me down? In Hebrews 11:6 the author tells us why faith (trusting cooperation) is irreplaceable: 1) you have to believe there is a person to know and that 2) if you try to know him you will be rewarded with relationship.

Ing Bee

___________________________________________________________________________________
*a term coined by Esther Meek in her excellent little book "A Little Manual on Knowing" which you might find helpful.

** see Mike Licona, Gary Habermas, Peter J. Williams, Richard Bauckham, Dan Wallace, Michael Heiser, Craig Blomberg, Steve Collins, etc.)If you find it helpful I recommend watching "The Jesus of Testimony" Documentary for free online. It has many of these scholars presenting current scholarship from their respective field of inquiry".

*** A great little book by Nicky Cruz, the former New York gang warlord who was transformed by the love of Jesus.

 

[SwordmanJr]

How can we be so sure that Christianity is the truth and every other religion is false?

Applying the term "religion" to Christianity is like an Eastern Mystic from India claiming that all of life is an illusion, and therefore your parents are an illusion, and belief in their existence is akin to "religion."

Belief in my parent's actual existence is no more a religion than to believe in the existence of the one, true God described within the pages of the Bible. If one wants to observe contradiction and self-refutation, just look at evolutionary theory....

Why would an all knowing God guide some to Allah and some to Jesus? Both parties have equally the same conviction of faith that they're in the truth.

There's no right answer to the wrong question. Your question here is based upon a false assumption; in that God directs some people to the moon god most call "allah." The God described within the Bible does nothing of the kind, therefore your question is a perpetual dichotomy.

I used to think I was a born again Christian until there were certain things that bought me back to reality and after I started to question some things I had issues on.

This statement lays claim to belief in many of the teachings of Christianity as being non-reality. Because the Bible has proven itself time and time again in many realms, such as archaeology, written history, moral superiority, internal continuity and many, many other areas of study, the reality of which you speak has every appearance of a self-delusional state.

I started to think maybe Christianity isn't the truth as I was reading into Islam and how they view the Bible. I got genuinely confused about religion.

How does what others claim about their beliefs in what the Bible says have any bearing on your beliefs? If you have never studied the Bible based upon its own merits, then it seems reasonable that you therefore never had any solid foundation for understanding the Bible and its countless evidences, and are therefore easily tossed to and fro by what others say about the Bible. A solid faith is unshakable, so it appears you never had a faith rooted in what you know to have been true.

Why do we believe in God and how is faith reliable?

Faith is a choice, not like some car one may drive, hoping it will not break down on the highway to grandma's house. What makes the difference is upon what you build your faith. If your faith was built upon the bandwagon crowd who say, "It's hip to be Christian," then your faith will fall off that bandwagon as soon as it hits a big enough bump. Erect your faith upon an actual rock foundation rather than some bandwagon on wheels, and what the muslims say about the Bible will cause you no consternation whatsoever.

I've been at that state before of feeling like you're in the truth and that God is with you etc, but is God actually there?

Feeling? What is that? "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." (Isa 1:18) Feelings are fleeting and fickle. They change from moment to moment. Reliance upon feelings is a shaky foundation at best upon which to rest one's beliefs. God created us rational beings capable of discerning truth from falsehood, and we have a Source upon Whom we may rely for ALL truth:

1Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

So, the question is: Who are you going to rely upon for your understanding of truth? Mere religion and the men who shape and direct it all, or God?

Jr

 

[Soul-searching]

Hi Soul-searching-

I find it helpful to define terms clearly when discussing important topics like this. Would you mind clarifying two of your comments for me?

1) I agree with you when you say, "There is a huge difference of the truth and something we think is true", but I am confused by your last sentence since "our truth" IS less true if doesn't conform to reality. Obviously our false beliefs can have real "true" effects (e.g. people with paranoid delusions will likely become isolated by their constant mistrust and accusations of their friends and family). Do you mean that subjective truth "feels" true experientially – like a paranoid person really feels that everyone is out to get him even though no one is?

2) In your understanding, how do the biblical authors define the concept of "belief"? Can you give some examples of bible passages demonstrating your understanding of "belief"?

Thanks in advance-

Ing Bee

Hi Ing Bee

Yes, our truth could have nothing to do with reality like what you said about the paranoid person, but it does not necessarily stop a person from believing what they think is true, regardless if it´s true or not. I believe that sometimes when someone believes something they can easily become blinded, and lose their realistic critical thinking. it´s nice to believe with all our hearts and souls, i do believe that, but it´s a thin line, and can easily become something it´s not supposed to be.

I´m sorry, i can´t answer your second question. I´m not educated enough, my bible is in Danish, it´s hard to translate what i want to say, my English is not good enough. I believe there is different ways to do things. There are people who knows the bible, knows every scripture, but does not practise what the core is, then there are people who does the opposite, and people who does something in between. For me, i don´t know the bible from inwards to outwards, i must admit that, but i know the core. For me the bible is a guideline, it´s a manual. What is most important to me, more important than to know scriptures, is practise what it preaches, which is humanity, love, empathy, denying ourselves basically.To take the core of the bible, and put it to use in our daily lives, love people, as God loves us.

 

[SolomonVII]

How can we be so sure that Christianity is the truth and every other religion is false? Why would an all knowing God guide some to Allah and some to Jesus? Both parties have equally the same conviction of faith that they're in the truth.

I used to think I was a born again Christian until there were certain things that bought me back to reality and after I started to question some things I had issues on. I started to think maybe Christianity isn't the truth as I was reading into Islam and how they view the Bible. I got genuinely confused about religion.

Why do we believe in God and how is faith reliable? I've been at that state before of feeling like you're in the truth and that God is with you etc, but is God actually there?

Cheers

I don't think that the objective of a Christian is to prove Christianity true by proving every other religion false. Any enduring religion-and the great religions are all of traditions that date back to beyond the beginning of literacy- has had its truth tested by being true to human nature and the existential problems of being a human in this world over millenia.
Truth, when it comes to spiritual affairs, is pragmatic. Any religion that can give the individual enough of the 'why' to endure any 'how', and to thereby advance the human condition, is true to its objective of creating a path for humans to live their lives out in the fullest possible manner.

Sure, there are differences and contradictions between religions, especially religions of the same traditions, such as the Abrahamic tradition that Christianity arose out of. And just as certainly there are maladaptation in religions that calcify them into positions of answering today's hows with yesterdays whys. Political Islam is the best example of that today.

In terms of history, Christ is as well documented as virtually any ancient figure. It is not for lack of historical documentation that Christianity is doubted today, but it is the extraordinary nature of the claims that causes moderns doubts.

Nevertheless, believing that possibility is not limited to what our understandings of the world dictate to be the realm of the possible is fundamental to the truth of any great religion. Our fullest nature may be fully realized only by going beyond the realm of the ordinarily possible. Our boundaries extend beyond the boundaries of this world. Religion extends our reality to believing that we are not limited to being slaves to the human systems that we have created. Miracles themselves are not God, but they are the signs that allow us to believe that God exists, and to go forth towards realizing God in our own lives. That is the path to freedom. So, even if a modern is no longer believe in the miracle without grave doubt, what the miracle points to can still be believed in. Christianity has set us on an extraordinary path, where the miracles of Jesus pale in comparison to what has actually been achieved. For a crop of wheat to grow, one seed must die.
Christ is a worthwhile path to follow. Humans are biologically designed toward finding purpose and meaning for their lives, and Christ is the narrative of truth who gives us the why for any how.


The truth of Christianity lies is in its fruits. It has transformed the Roman world and beyond, from a world in which the elites were gods, and the hoi-polloi were their beasts of burdens and amusements to watch writhing on crosses, into our world, where thousands of people are being lifted out of abject poverty every day, where the poor, the sick, the imprisoned and the dispossessed, are recognized as being creatures of immeasurable value and worth, not on account of birth, but on account of being born human, children of God, by our very nature.
The fact that God identified with the hoi polloi makes all the differences. That is the truth especially unique to Christianity that is as miraculous as anything now dismissed as biblical myth.

 

[paul becke]

I don't think that the objective of a Christian is to prove Christianity true by proving every other religion false. Any enduring religion-and the great religions are all of traditions that date back to beyond the beginning of literacy- has had its truth tested by being true to human nature and the existential problems of being a human in this world over millenia.
Truth, when it comes to spiritual affairs, is pragmatic. Any religion that can give the individual enough of the 'why' to endure any 'how', and to thereby advance the human condition, is true to its objective of creating a path for humans to live their lives out in the fullest possible manner.

Sure, there are differences and contradictions between religions, especially religions of the same traditions, such as the Abrahamic tradition that Christianity arose out of. And just as certainly there are maladaptation in religions that calcify them into positions of answering today's hows with yesterdays whys. Political Islam is the best example of that today.

In terms of history, Christ is as well documented as virtually any ancient figure. It is not for lack of historical documentation that Christianity is doubted today, but it is the extraordinary nature of the claims that causes moderns doubts.

Nevertheless, believing that possibility is not limited to what our understandings of the world dictate to be the realm of the possible is fundamental to the truth of any great religion. Our fullest nature may be fully realized only by going beyond the realm of the ordinarily possible. Our boundaries extend beyond the boundaries of this world. Religion extends our reality to believing that we are not limited to being slaves to the human systems that we have created. Miracles themselves are not God, but they are the signs that allow us to believe that God exists, and to go forth towards realizing God in our own lives. That is the path to freedom. So, even if a modern is no longer believe in the miracle without grave doubt, what the miracle points to can still be believed in. Christianity has set us on an extraordinary path, where the miracles of Jesus pale in comparison to what has actually been achieved. For a crop of wheat to grow, one seed must die.
Christ is a worthwhile path to follow. Humans are biologically designed toward finding purpose and meaning for their lives, and Christ is the narrative of truth who gives us the why for any how.


The truth of Christianity lies is in its fruits. It has transformed the Roman world and beyond, from a world in which the elites were gods, and the hoi-polloi were their beasts of burdens and amusements to watch writhing on crosses, into our world, where thousands of people are being lifted out of abject poverty every day, where the poor, the sick, the imprisoned and the dispossessed, are recognized as being creatures of immeasurable value and worth, not on account of birth, but on account of being born human, children of God, by our very nature.

------------------------------------
'The fact that God identified with the hoi polloi makes all the differences. That is the truth especially unique to Christianity that is as miraculous as anything now dismissed as biblical myth.'

Yes, but judging from some of the people I've been arguing with on the Crisis blog, who rail against St OscarRomero, Blessed Helder Camara and even St Ambrose, you wouldn't know it. These are well-educated monied people who are throw into transports of rage that they're asked to pay tax to provide food and shelter for the ever-growing number of homeless people, including rough-sleepers. They say it's their money, and its being stolen from them !


Their attitude is what's mine is mine, and what's yours/theirs is mine. No wonder one of them called St Ambrose an idiot ! I pointed out to them that Jesus said that the measure you give is the measure you will receive. It didn't go down well at all !!!! They want their bread buttered on both sides, and have their cake and eat it. Also, Fr Abraham's less than reassuring words to the rich man about having had good things in this life, while Lazarus had had bad, and now it was time to reverse the blessings.... I don't now how those people can even consider themselves poor in SPIRIT.

Of course, we know Jesus had rich friends as well, and loved them very dearly, but even Jesus had to generalise to make sense of the world.

Very interesting post, Solomon, and your signature, alas, is all too true.