Legally Isolated Primitive Tribe kills attempted Missionary

Nithavela · Nov 24, 2018

loveofourlord said:
And the creation of super bugs saved many lives, and we will stop super bugs eventually too. Remember a super bug is no more deadly then a normal one, they are just immune to our treatments. So we saved lives as long as we could, now those methods can't, but alternative was they die.

Actually superbugs are mostly created by using antibiotics in reckless manner.

Ana the Ist · Nov 24, 2018

Quid est Veritas? said:
What you are thinking of is Kuru, a Prion disease. It was endemic amongst cannibalistic peoples of New Guinea and the Solomons. It is hypothetised that it ultimately came from someone who ate a missionary that had Creutszveld-Jacobs disease (or a villager that spontaneously developed it) - the Human variant of Mad Cow Disease. They have even pinpointed the possible patient 0. From there repeated cannibalism spread it through the populace.

The situation is different though, since you need a concept of disease as a material entity, of having a cause in a pathological state, to make this connection. This is not a common cultural trait, which is why so many diseases went untreated or why basic measures, like sanitation, were seldom grasped to limit it. The learned doctors of mediaeval times coupled Black Death to Astrological movements or poisonous miasma, yet they realised the death arrived from other places that suffered it. Another example is Malaria, often ascribed to poisonous air. In even more primitive groups, we see spirits or karma concepts blamed. One can hardly blame someone for not grasping causes of disease, if you have no way to even articulate the concept thereof. Centuries of Logikoi Medicine from Hellenistic times went into mediaeval medicine, and they often couldn't do so - like coupling filthy water with diarrheal illnesses. It isn't a culture rooted in innovation, rather a culture rooted in a different medical tradition. I mean, by the tenets of Homeopathy we wouldn't be able to make such connections either.

Thanks for digging up the term kuru there...I thought that was what it was called, but for some reason I thought that was the name of a cultural psychological disorder where men believe their junk is shrinking.

While I agree with most of what you said here, I disagree with your conclusion. Yes, they are different medical traditions...but you're either ignoring or not considering how these two different traditions (ours and theirs) came about and the factors that changed them over time.

Once you consider those factors (of which the biggest is probably innovation) it's not hard to understand that their tradition will likely never become one with a concept of disease....in fact, it's a safe bet that it hasn't changed much in the past 2000 years.

Kenny'sID · Nov 24, 2018

FireDragon76 said:
Murder is a legal concept implying unlawful killing with malice.

What part of the world is it lawful to kill a man with malice?

Point being, this could be argued and go either way when it comes to law, but that's not likely to happen.

Kenny'sID · Nov 24, 2018

Nithavela said:
Yeah, it amuses me as well.

Nor can the tribesmen following indian law.

They obviously think differently than you do.

They don't go after victim, they only attack those who land on their island.

This place falls under the jurisdiction of india and india has long since decided that they wont indict any tribesmen for people they kill because they landed on the island.

The only one who broke a law was the "missionary" who broke indian law for repeatedly trying to contact the islanders. He himself is accountable for his own unlawfull actions.

This, and your other post that I assume is the same things...no need to take the time to respond except to say, some of your ideas are out there, so much so if people want to believe your wood chipper analogy, for instance, more power to them.

This is one of those situations where no matter how foolish the comment, you'll defend it to the end. The end.

Kenny'sID · Nov 24, 2018

Ana the Ist said:
That's your misconception.

I don't think anyone is picking up the fact they didn't kill each other so how did they have no perception of whether killing was wrong or not? It's ridiculous to think otherwise.

For the second time, people know they themselves don't like to be shot by arrows, nor do they like being dead...it's just something we know, and no law needs to point it out. lol

Fun thread.

Nithavela · Nov 24, 2018

Kenny'sID said:
This, and your other post that I assume is the same things...no need to take the time to respond except to say, some of your ideas are out there, so much so if people want to believe your wood chipper analogy, for instance, more power to them.

This is one of those situations where no matter how foolish the comment, you'll defend it to the end. The end.

So we are playing pidgeon chess now?

Kenny'sID · Nov 24, 2018

Nithavela said:
So we are playing pidgeon chess now?

You may have the last word if you like, not that important to me.

Nithavela · Nov 24, 2018

Kenny'sID said:
You may have the last word if you like, not that important to me.

Ill take that as a yes.

comana · Nov 24, 2018

Kenny'sID said:
I don't think anyone is picking up the fact they didn't kill each other so how did they have no perception of whether killing was wrong or not? It's ridiculous to think otherwise.

For the second time, people know they themselves don't like to be shot by arrows, nor do they like being dead...it's just something we know, and no law needs to point it out. lol

Fun thread.

I think the issue is not whether they believe killing is wrong in general but whether they believed killing an intruder was wrong. It's a fair guess that they did not believe it was wrong and motive is likely to remove a perceived threat.

GoldenBoy89 · Nov 24, 2018

Now that's an example of a militant atheist.

Kenny'sID · Nov 24, 2018

comana said:
I think the issue is not whether they believe killing is wrong in general but whether they believed killing an intruder was wrong. It's a fair guess that they did not believe it was wrong and motive is likely to remove a perceived threat.

Some seem to think they didn't know killing was wrong....period., you know, like a wood chipper doesn't know killing is wrong.

Ana the Ist · Nov 24, 2018

Kenny'sID said:
I don't think anyone is picking up the fact they didn't kill each other

What makes you think they never kill each other?

so how did they have no perception of whether killing was wrong or not? It's ridiculous to think otherwise.

Are we talking about killing anyone at all? Or are we talking about your specific moral beliefs about killing?

For the second time, people know they themselves don't like to be shot by arrows, nor do they like being dead...it's just something we know, and no law needs to point it out. lol

Fun thread.

I don't think they're shooting themselves with arrows. Suicide by bow and arrow sounds tricky.

Kenny'sID · Nov 24, 2018

Ana the Ist said:
What makes you think they never kill each other?

Are we talking about killing anyone at all? Or are we talking about your specific moral beliefs about killing?

I don't think they're shooting themselves with arrows. Suicide by bow and arrow sounds tricky.

We've come to the point where you are clearly choosing not to understand a thing I am saying.

Once that attitude happens, no sense in continuing.

Quid est Veritas? · Nov 24, 2018

Ana the Ist said:
Thanks for digging up the term kuru there...I thought that was what it was called, but for some reason I thought that was the name of a cultural psychological disorder where men believe their junk is shrinking.

While I agree with most of what you said here, I disagree with your conclusion. Yes, they are different medical traditions...but you're either ignoring or not considering how these two different traditions (ours and theirs) came about and the factors that changed them over time.

Once you consider those factors (of which the biggest is probably innovation) it's not hard to understand that their tradition will likely never become one with a concept of disease....in fact, it's a safe bet that it hasn't changed much in the past 2000 years.

That is Koro, a Chinese culture Psychiatric illness.

Innovation is only a good thing if you are moving in the right direction. Ayurvedic Medicine innovated on Galenic Physiology, so is a distant cousin of Western Medicine, but is basically hocum. As is Homeopathy an innovation based on the effectivity of quinine containing bark to combat malaria, while also provoking fever. Tradition isn't a bad thing, as we ourselves are working from one. You must stand on the shoulders oofthe giants of the past, via Tradition. It just needs to be integrated. A golden mean as it were. Too much and it is tyrannical, too little and its chaos and little can be done.

Quid est Veritas? · Nov 24, 2018

Nithavela said:
Actually superbugs are mostly created by using antibiotics in reckless manner.

Antibiotic Resistance arises from antibiotic use. The first 'superbugs' arose in ICU's and Operating Theatres long before antibiotic use became frequent. At that stage they were only resistant to Penicillin though. The organisms with natural resistance proliferate and then gift plasmids with protective genes to others and so on.

Antibiotic abuse has greatly facilitated this process, by simple fact of exposing more organisms to more antibiotics and allowing the somewhat resistant to grow again and thus develop strategies to deal with various antibiotic classes. There is much furore around antibiotic abuse via prescription, but the biggest culprit is actually industrial farming methods - especially for resistant organisms that aren't nosocomial. For instance, one of our last lines of defence is Colistin, where resistance was unheard of - till some bright spark decided to give it to cattle, and now resistance is growing rapidly.

Superbugs aren't more deadly, just difficult to treat. This would have occured naturally anyway, we just sped up the process greatly through human idiocy. Our medical studies have also grown far more expensive, and new avenues that haven't been explored are diminishing rapidly. Each new antibiotic soon creates resistance to it. We are even dusting off ideas thought impractical in the past, like Bacteriophages. Luckily organisms with extended spectrum resistance to all our armamentarium is still rare.

SoldierOfTheKing · Nov 25, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
if one wanted to evangelize them, one could be more cautious and cognizant of borders and boundaries...

eg waiting offshore for their curiosity & permission to land, starting by bringing them gifts which concretize the gospel, eg Rosary beads, giving them on the shoreline before departing... Asking permission to offer prayers for them...

...or simply have better sense than to show up alone and unarmed.

HowRU? · Nov 25, 2018

Quid est Veritas? said:
American 'killed by arrow-wielding tribe'

So this missionary died by the hands of this isolated tribe. This raises a number of questions to me:

Legally, they are cut off from all contact with the outside world. Words like 'Endangered' and 'Protect their Habitat' are used. Are they animals? This sounds suspiciously akin to the old usage where natives were part of the fauna.

Is our modern world so evil to us, that we would protect the 'Noble Savage' from it? Leave him in his high infant mortality and subsistence state? How are we justifying it? Sure, he lacks immunity to common diseases, being isolated, but that is nothing a immunisation regime can't fix. We have decided to keep him locked in time, some oddity. Or is this a damning verdict on how people feel about modernity? The simple myths we tell of the Rousseauan virtue or the Paleo-diet?

If we really feel our world is getting so much better, on what grounds are we denying it to these people? Are they not citizens of India, deserving all the other boons entailed thereby (even if they themselves have no such concept).

Quite odd. Sad they killed this man though, so clearly they, or their leadership, want nothing to do with the rest of the world - if they don't consider it demonic perhaps.

This little island is a little piece of India’s sovereign nation. They say it’s off limits, so the missionary was in error going there. He needed India’s permission first.
Also, was it God’s will that he go there to bring the good news of Jesus? Maybe, but I don’t think without India’s permission.
Finally, is India right in keeping them isolated and out of touch with the rest of the world? My feeling is no, but that’s something to take up with the government of India.

Nithavela · Nov 25, 2018

Quid est Veritas? said:
Antibiotic Resistance arises from antibiotic use. The first 'superbugs' arose in ICU's and Operating Theatres long before antibiotic use became frequent. At that stage they were only resistant to Penicillin though. The organisms with natural resistance proliferate and then gift plasmids with protective genes to others and so on.

Antibiotic abuse has greatly facilitated this process, by simple fact of exposing more organisms to more antibiotics and allowing the somewhat resistant to grow again and thus develop strategies to deal with various antibiotic classes. There is much furore around antibiotic abuse via prescription, but the biggest culprit is actually industrial farming methods - especially for resistant organisms that aren't nosocomial. For instance, one of our last lines of defence is Colistin, where resistance was unheard of - till some bright spark decided to give it to cattle, and now resistance is growing rapidly.

Superbugs aren't more deadly, just difficult to treat. This would have occured naturally anyway, we just sped up the process greatly through human idiocy. Our medical studies have also grown far more expensive, and new avenues that haven't been explored are diminishing rapidly. Each new antibiotic soon creates resistance to it. We are even dusting off ideas thought impractical in the past, like Bacteriophages. Luckily organisms with extended spectrum resistance to all our armamentarium is still rare.

The real problem is that there is little money in anitbiotics research, so no pharma company is really invested in it. The quiver is almost empty, but nobody wants to be the one who buys new arrows.

Nithavela · Nov 25, 2018

SoldierOfTheKing said:
...or simply have better sense than to show up alone and unarmed.

How about we just throw a few fuel-gas-bombs on the island and call it a day?

FireDragon76 · Nov 25, 2018

Kenny'sID said:
What part of the world is it lawful to kill a man with malice?

In the US, it's legal in some states to shoot trespassers if there is a perception of danger.

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