Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?
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It says it is impossible to be renewed to repentance.
I think we should focus on the word/ ‘renewed’ part. Not whether that are going to repent because the verse says ‘it is impossible’. So then isn’t repentance out of the question if we take the entire verse
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Who, or what group, do you think is being talked about in that verse...?
Cause it does mean what it says, just that many think it is one group, when it is talking about another (group), usually those who are "calling the kettle black" type, the ones who hurl accusations at others that they themselves are guilty of doing, nearly impossible to revive or renew them back to the repentance they had at the beginning, for they have fallen away...
They think, about the the other group, that "they calling themselves and claiming to be sinners is shaming Christ", when in fact it is glorifying him, as the one and only truly sinless one, these types almost always are to unwilling to admit to their own shame and sinfulness (bear their/our cross that "we rightfully deserve and He did not") that makes it impossible to bring them back to repentance again, and they are the ones bringing shame upon Christ...
You'd think if they could just "hear" themselves talk/speak, but, most of the time, they really do not... (really "hear" themselves talk and speak)...
Sad...
They may not know that, what I am trying to do (with a lot of help) is bring them back around to repentance again, to revive them, though I doubt they see, or can see "this" that way...
God Bless!
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Vi
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But those are messages for the unsaved, yes. Those needing salvation. Once saved from sin, the HS is enabling us to live a sanctifying life. We can't do that ourselves, by will. Our sins are forgiven. Does this not speak of the unforgiven sins.
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This isn't a difficult question, proporsation or exposition. When it says 'imossible to restore to repentance'' there are specific condition swith one outcome. Your premise is that a single sin like adultery causes the believer to lose salvation, well how about harboring a murderer, even after he killed your own son? When Pilate washes his hand he is mimicking an OT ceremony the elders had to perform if thet couldn't find the perpetrator of a murder. This would absolve them and the town of guilt. So how about a king who let's his general get away with murder?
Ok you have a project, need to read a few commentaries, it's going to take a week. It's two verses and a short chapter. Spamming quotes out of context in a stream didn't work, changing the suvject didn't work and extended rationalizations didn't work because it's obvious if you can lose salvation you can only lose it once.
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I think it supports OSAS. Someone who is saved is always saved, cannot be renewed or resaved because it is impossible to loose salvation.
Just like it is impossible to re-crucify Christ. Romans says that we have been crucified with Christ in His death. That is why we become a new man or new being.
Also, if we were to become unsaved like Jason says, then we would loose the Holy Spirit because that is the seal of the New Covenant. So the Holy Spirit according to Jason would be gone or have left us, but then when we repent He would come back? Makes no sense.
If the Holy Spirit left, the seal of the Covenant of our Salvation in Christ, then Jesus would have to be recrucified in us to again allow us to be justified through His blood and cleansed of all sin to have the Holy Spirit come back again???
Very confusing theology that Jason has. It's like Christ dies again for every sin and we get resaved.
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Dorothy Mae
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I actually do use scripture but I do not highlight in in color with blinking lights because I want to know who knows the Bible or who knows the arguments they heard to prop up their position. Those who know it, recognize it whenever it is quoted whether the reference is there or not.
What you do is throw out isolated verses and I believe that is called "gish" that is overwhelming the other with isolated statments out of context that is just too much work to answer. It is employed when the person has no real concrete reason for their position. The same can be said of insisting that the scripture is obvious and it just happens to be what you think. The idea that you might think wrongly about the scripture does not seem to occur to you.
I do not recall this and cannot comment on it.
That is like asking for one scripture that says we need to sleep every night and because it does not, we do not. There is a real lack of understanding some basic logic here. I said sin separates us from God. Now can you stop beating that dead horse. Sin separates us from GOd. Do you need the scripture for tha?
Pinpoint one or two. I do not have time for a novel. You overwhelm anyone else with a gish full of isolated verses any one of which would take a full post to answer.
It is difficult to converse with you if you keep using straw man arguments. I never said the above or anything close to it.
[quote[For to say David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder means that we can can be like a King David and do that, too. We can sin and still be saved, too. No big deal. God just turns a blind eye to evil.[/quote]Nope, it is saying nothing of the kind. However, your view of David at that time does not at all match God's view of the man. God sent a prophet to challenge him and that prophet did not tell David that he was now unsaved and going to hell. He did not even quote ANY of the verses you use. None. God's view of David at that point in time is A LOT different than your view. You have a problem in that you assume that God only sees "unsaved" or turns a blind eye to sin. That is it for you. Only those two options. This is not what the prophet of God said to David and so you are wrong.
I do not go around looking at what sin others do in any case. I do not qualify it or quantify it. So I am not thinking about how much sin one can get away with. I do know the process of losing salvation as I have observed this in others. It is not how you describe it as one sin and God harshly judges "unsaved" as you seem to think.
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Dorothy Mae
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I have heard that sort of respones called "Gish" where you throw out so many disconnected pieces that the opponent is overwhelmed. I think that is what he does. Gish.
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Okay, I will try to do this without the commentary.
Hebrews 6:4-6 does not support your interpretation. You think Hebrews 6:4-6 is in reference to an unbeliever. But Hebrews 6:1 talks about not laying again the foundation of repentance (Which is not possible for an unbeliever).
Hebrews 6:1 says,
"...not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,"
Unbelievers cannot ATTEMPT to lay AGAIN:
#1. The FOUNDATION by their REPENTANCE from dead works
#2. The FOUNDATION of their FAITH TOWARDS GOD.
Only a believer can attempt to do try to do this (Which is impossible) according to Hebrews 6:4-6.
Hebrews 6:9 and Hebrews 6:12 are also key context verses for Hebrews 6:4-6.
Verse 9 It says, "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak."
Verse 12 says "That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises."
Verse 9, the author assures the recipients of the letter that they do not need to worry about whether they did this thing in Hebrews 6:4-6, and that they are persuaded of better things than that for them in regards to salvation.
Note: If Hebrews 6:4-6 was some hypothetical fall away or a promise stating that no believer can fall away ever, then the author would not say that they are persuaded of better things for them in regards to salvation because he gives them words of encouragement to continue in the faith in verse 12.
Verse 12 gives the recipients of the letter an encouragement to be not slothful but followers of them (i.e. the men of faith) who inherit the promises. We can merely look at Hebrews 11 for an example of those who inherit the promises. They were men who had faith in God (Which also included works of faith that followed).
Verse 15 gives an example of an encouragement of to continue in the faith; For it says, " ...he [Abraham] had patiently endured, he obtained the promise."
Why would the author mention anything about enduring in the faith here with Abraham whereby Abraham obtained the promise?
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" (James 2:21).
No man was around to watch to watch Abraham offer his son. He was not justified in the sight of men by his works here. His works that he was justified by were only before God. Both he and Isaac were believers or Jews.
Genesis 22 says,
10 "And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son," thine only son from me."
Abraham not only first needed to believe in GOD to be saved before this, but Abraham also needed to demonstrate his faith was genuine by his actions (Which he proved by offering up his only son) to GOD.
There are no chapter breaks in the Bible.
Hebrews is all one cohesive message trying to make a point.
Again, Hebrews 3:12-14 is an exhortation to BELIEVERS to not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin whereby they can have a hard heart and depart from the living GOD.
12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:12-14).
Hebrews 6:4-6 is in part talking in context to this!
It is mentioning how you can depart from the living GOD because of sin hardening your heart. The folks in Hebrews 6:4-6 were believers who thought they could go back to the Jewish OT system of animal sacrifices (to be saved and deny Christ) to avoid persecution. Jesus says if you deny me, I will deny you (Matthew 10:33). They wanted to deny Jesus for a while (By declaring they were saved under the Old way that was no more) to avoid persecution for their faith and then come back to serving Jesus when the persecution had passed. In the Parable of the Sower, we learn that one of the seeds fell away due to persecution.
Hebrews 10 says,
38 "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."
The just shall LIVE by faith.
If any man draws back, God's soul will have no pleasure in the one who draws back from living by faith. We have to believe everything in our Bible. Even the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers. That is all a part of the faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
Faith without works of faith is useless.
For example: If Rick said that his old rocking chair on his porch was able to hold his weight, and he said he believed that with all his heart, would he truly be showing forth that his statement of faith was true if he never sat in the chair? Especially if he was asked to sit in it and yet he refused to do so? In other words, if Rick believed that his porch chair would hold his weight (and he told others this), he would no doubt take the action necessary by sitting in that chair to prove that such a statement was true. Otherwise it would just be an empty profession of faith. In other words, if a person says they love God, and they have no visible good fruit to show that such a thing is true, then it would be just an empty profession of faith that they love God. Meaning, they really do not love God. It would just be a paying of lip service. I mean, a man can say he loves his wife, but if he does nothing to please her in any way, then he really does not love her. Action shows forth whether one's faith is the genuine and the real article vs. it being fake.
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Dorothy Mae
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It is quite possible to fall away from the real and true faith a man had and JEsus explains how. It is real. It happens. Christians can fall away from the faith and become lost.
Actually Hebrews says that those who fall away from the faith crucify the Lord to themselves again so the writer of the Bible disagrees with you. Don't be fooled by the OSAS semantics in their arguments. One does not become unborn but one becomes dead. One does not re-cruicify CHrist but crucifys him to themselves.
If we quench the Holy Spirit, he is gone. That is the term used, grieve or quench. IF a fire is quenched, it is out, gone. The HOly spirit can certainly leave someone.
Did you know that the Bible speaks of God repenting of something he was going to do or was doing? If the writer of the Bible has no trouble saying God repented, why should we? And it is called renewing the spirit.
Since he was never crucified in you in the first place there is no need for a second round. It is called, by the way, forgiveness based on the blood of Christ. But yes, one would have to be forgiven of sin and cleansed. I mean were you only cleansed of your sin once in your lifetime? Haven't you been forgiven and cleansed of sin as often as necessary?
Christ was the one time sacrifice. The blood of lambs etc needed to be sacrified yearly. But Christ only needed to be sacrificed once. Does not mean we are only forgiven once.
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Dorothy Mae
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You do not know that. By the way, where is the scripture that describes any of the disciples getting saved, prounced saved or where any of his followers were told they were unsaved? You have decided those who left were unsaved, JEsus wondered if the 12 would leave him too so he did not seem to think there was a difference between those who stayed and those who left, judging by his question.
He didn't say, "I know that you 12 are saved and so cannot leave me no matter what I say or do." You OSASers seem to think this is the case.
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The same greek word "anomia" (Which is where we get the word "Antinomianism") is used for the English word "iniquity" (KJV) or the English word "lawlessness" (Certain modern translations) in Matthew 7:23. Jesus said "Depart from me" to certain believers who thought they were doing good works and yet they were ALSO working "iniquity" ("anomia", i.e. Antinomianism, or justifying sin). Ask yourself, can God justify sin? Can he agree with a believer's thinking that they can sin and still be saved (even though His Word condemns those very sins)? No. God cannot break His own Word! God is not a respecter of persons (Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35) (Romans 2:11-12).
If your belief was true, Jesus would say in Matthew 7:23, "Depart from me you that did not believe alone in my sacrifice instead of worrying about your sins."
But is that what Matthew 7:23 says?
No.
So yeah, your belief is not even remotely in the Scriptures by a long shot.
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Dorothy Mae
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That is like quoting the scriptures that tell us to go out and heal the sick and raise the dead and you challenge that by asking anyone who quotes it if they have raised the dead or not and if not, those words of JEsus are not valid.
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Of course it is, I've just dealt with him on James 2 and 1 John before at length so no point pursuing it again, he wouldn't do an exposition then and doesn't want to now. Spamming verses out of context and generating mountains of rationalizations won't help his case. It's a simple exposition, the difficulty is due to the fact that the logic of his proposition is fatally flawed. The gospel is clear, we will struggle with sin right up until the return of Christ. Paul describes this at length in Romans six and seven, starting off with what shall we say then, which means, what shall we teach. In other words, it's a doctrinal discussion with a conclusive determination with regards to the nature of the Christian's struggle with sin even post conversion. This stuff gets easier when you learn to take things the underlying principles.
Grace and peace,
Mark
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Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,
Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:
Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)
And here is a list of potential fallen believers:
The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)
For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).
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