Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

[mark kennedy]

Hebrews 6:4-6 is not a clear verse and is challenging to most believers. Trying to use an unclear and challenging passage as your defense is not really a good defense to make. It will also take time to come up with a commentary to leave no stone unturned so that you cannot twist it to into trying to turn God's grace into a license for immorality with this passage. So lets discuss a verse that is easy and plain to understand like James 2:24. It says very plainly that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. The context in James 2 supports this line of thinking. It does not support a sin and still be saved kind of doctrine. The OSAS interpretation on James 2:24 does not work. It is saying that the works of justification are only in sight of God and not man (Romans 4). But that does not fit the context of James 1 and James 2. Nowhere does James make a case about how these sins are only to be justified in the sight of men while one is still saved in God's eyes. James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Can a dead faith save you? No. Scripture says without faith, it is impossible to please God. I could keep pointing out more of the context if you like, but you probably don't want to hear it.

No, let's discuss Hebrews 6:4-6 because it's the passage I proposed as a proof text for my proposition. When the believer loses salvation in that way can they be restored to repentance? I only ask because you need to understand if salvation you can only do it once. My other point of David's death bed confesion has eluded you as well, is haboring a murderer a sin and was he lost the entire time until he confessed it to Solomon?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, let's discuss Hebrews 6:4-6 because it's the passage I proposed as a proof text for my proposition. When the believer loses salvation in that way can they be restored to repentance? I only ask because you need to understand if salvation you can only do it once. My other point of David's death bed confesion has eluded you as well, is haboring a murderer a sin and was he lost the entire time until he confessed it to Solomon?

And I told you that is going to take some time for me to come up with a commentary to explain it in a way detailed way with lots of context (so as to refute your belief). I am busy with another project, so this may be a little while to make a commentary on this one. So we can discuss James 2:24 in the mean time if you like. If not, then have a great evening.

And may God bless you.

 

[ClementofA]

Even life teaches us that not all sin is the same. For do you consider the breaking of the Law of going over the speed limit by 5 miles per hour (in driving a motor vehicle) as the same as the crime as murder? Surely not.

So, Jason, it's okay to do the little sins because they won't cause loss of salvation?

What other things do you consider little sins can people get away with & still be saved?

Does the Bible expressly forbid watching non Christian movies, listening to worldly music, playing cards, drinking alcohol, masturbation, watching porn, gambling, etc? Are these what you consider little sins that a person can commit habitually & not lose salvation?

 

[mark kennedy]

And I told you that is going to take some time for me to come up with a commentary to explain it in a way detailed way with lots of context (so as to refute your belief). So we can discuss James 2:24 if you like.

You have consistantly failed to address that context as well, I don't care but it's typical of your approach. Read all the commentary you like but kindly address the content of the verse in it's natural context. The proposition remains, if you can lose your salvation you can only lose it once. I have not the slightestest interest in making grace a licence for sin, I'm addressing the premise of the thread that you lose salvation when you sin. You really didn't have an answer for this when you started the debate?

You go gleen what you can from the commentary and we can talk some more. If you really wanted to address the issue you would look at Hebrews and that would be a welcomed change.

 

[ClementofA]

No, let's discuss Hebrews 6:4-6 because it's the passage I proposed as a proof text for my proposition. When the believer loses salvation in that way can they be restored to repentance? I only ask because you need to understand if salvation you can only do it once.

As OMT implied the passage says the person is - only - lost - while - they are choosing to crucify Christ. Therefore it does not rule out the possibility of future repentance:

"Hebrews 6 does not state that "the atonement is once and for all." Rather, what is does state is that it is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance SINCE they are CRUCIFYING and SHAMING Christ. In other words, those who shaming and crucifying Christ are still in the process of doing it, therefore their very ongoing actions demonstrate that they are still in a state of ongoing rebellion and have no interest in repenting. As long as they keep doing that, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to restore them to repentance. No repentance = no forgiveness."

 

[mark kennedy]

As OMT implied the passage says the person is - only - lost - while - they are choosing to crucify Christ. Therefore it does not rule out the possibility of future repentance:

"Hebrews 6 does not state that "the atonement is once and for all." Rather, what is does state is that it is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance SINCE they are CRUCIFYING and SHAMING Christ. In other words, those who shaming and crucifying Christ are still in the process of doing it, therefore their very ongoing actions demonstrate that they are still in a state of ongoing rebellion and have no interest in repenting. As long as they keep doing that, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to restore them to repentance. No repentance = no forgiveness."

I clarified that I meant simply the atonement was a once and for all sacrifice Hebrews 10:12. It was a passing remark intending to emphasis that if you abandon Christ you abandon that atonement and you can do that only once according to Hebrews 6:4-6.

As usual, you missed the whole point.

 

[ClementofA]

I clarified that I meant simply the atonement was a once and for all sacrifice Hebrews 10:12. It was a passing remark intending to emphasis that if you abandon Christ you abandon that atonement and you can do that only once according to Hebrews 6:4-6.

As usual, you missed the whole point.

Heb.6:4-6 & Scripture as a whole - nowhere - teach "if you abandon Christ you abandon that atonement and you can do that only once according to Hebrews 6:4-6".

6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Heb.6:6, NASB)

[d] while

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 6 - New American Standard Bible


"That Ominous “Impossible”

What is the plight of one who has known and experienced the lovely blessings detailed in Heb. 6:4-5, and then he defects? What is his spiritual status should he “fall away”? And “fall away” from what? From the grace that had been bestowed upon them (see Heb. 12:15; cf. Gal. 5:4).

The answer to the question is this. “It is impossible to renew them again unto repentance.” The phrase is frightening. It sounds so bleak. It is bleak! It is an “impossible” endeavor.

The word “impossible” derives from the Greek adunatos, literally “without power.” Note the word’s use elsewhere in this letter (Heb. 6:18; 10:4; 11:6). Any attempt to weaken the term is an exercise in futility.

But, as our original question suggested, the passage does seem to conflict with so many other biblical texts that lavishly describe the unfathomable love and mercy of our wonderful and benevolent Maker.

How is one to reconcile this seeming difficulty?

The key to the solution is to be found in the following phrase. The American Standard Version renders it as follows:

“seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”

The ASV footnote has it: “the while they crucify....” The English Standard Version reads like this: “since they are crucifying once again....”

The translators are attempting to give the English reader a hint as to the force of the original text. Here are some important grammatical facts.

They keep on crucifying Jesus

Both of the expressions “crucify” and “put him to open shame” are present tense participles. In Greek, the present tense has more to do with the type of action, rather than time (the latter being secondary). The present tense represents an action that is in progress, and generally, one that is sustained (see Wallace, 518).

The “crucifying” and “putting to open shame,” therefore, represent on-going actions on the part of apostates.

As long as ...

It is also important to note that present participles normally express action that is contemporary with that of the main verb of the sentence (Wallace, 625), which, in this case is “renew.”

In other words, “while they continue to crucify,” “as long as they are crucifying,” etc., the Son of God, they cannot be brought to repentance.

Why is this the case? Because Christ is the motive for repentance! How could one possibly repent of falling away from the Christian faith, if he believes that the crucifixion of Jesus was a just sentence upon a false Messiah?

As F. F. Bruce expressed it: “Those who repudiate the salvation procured by Christ will find none anywhere else” (149).

Conclusion

And so, it is not the case that Jewish Christians who abandon the faith cannot ever be saved. The tragic reality is this. They cannot be saved if they drift into a state of unbelief and remain that way!

But, as Blackwelder observes, the temporal participles imply that “if persons guilty of such sin will cease it, and repent, they can be reclaimed” (104).

While the passage contains a fearful warning for apostates, it does not suggest a state of utter despair."

Are Apostates from the Faith beyond Repentance?

-------------------------------------------------------

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[Oldmantook]

The present tense of what exactly?

Since you initially cited Heb 6, (but now I see you in correction you actually meant Heb 10) regarding the atonement which I have no problem with. But regarding Heb 6:6, I pointed out that in v.6 the words translated as 'crucify' and 'shame' are Greek present tense participles more accurately translated as crucifying and shaming. This verse interprets itself because it states 'it is impossible to renew them to repentance' SINCE they are crucifying and shaming Christ. Those actions demonstrate ongoing rebellion instead of a posture of repentance and hence no forgiveness.

 

[Oldmantook]

Would you care to explain what you think the interpretation the scripture clearly provides is? And if this is so clear, why are there differences of opinion.

Because Heb 6:6 is one of those scriptures that interprets itself as I explain above in #448. When a scripture explains itself, there is no need for us to seek any other sense. Would you not agree with this basic hermeneutical principle?
There are differences of opinion because people are unaware of, or ignore the parsing of the participles in this verse.

 

[mark kennedy]

Since you initially cited Heb 6, (but now I see you in correction you actually meant Heb 10) regarding the atonement which I have no problem with. But regarding Heb 6:6, I pointed out that in v.6 the words translated as 'crucify' and 'shame' are Greek present tense participles more accurately translated as crucifying and shaming. This verse interprets itself because it states 'it is impossible to renew them to repentance' SINCE they are crucifying and shaming Christ. Those actions demonstrate ongoing rebellion instead of a posture of repentance and hence no forgiveness.

Of course it's in the present tense because if you could do it you would be doing it at that momet. The tense there is obviously irrelevant.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have not the slightestest interest in making grace a licence for sin,

But if one says David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder, than a license to sin is exactly what a person is espousing (Whether a person wants that to happen or not). For when a person hears a Christian preach that King David was saved, they could easily think they can be like a King David and sin like him and be saved, too. For do you not believe Christians today can commit certain grievous sins and still be saved while doing them by just having a belief on Jesus?

I'm addressing the premise of the thread that you lose salvation when you sin. You really didn't have an answer for this when you started the debate?

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes on act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes on act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

#6. David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

#7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

#8. Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some. NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

You go gleen what you can from the commentary and we can talk some more. If you really wanted to address the issue you would look at Hebrews and that would be a welcomed change.

You did not listen to what I actually said. I said I would provide the commentary. But seeing it will take time, and I am working on another project that is really important for the Lord, it will have to wait (Lord willing). If you cannot patient, I cannot help that. if you don't wan't to discuss other simple verses like James 2:24, I cannot help that, either.

 

[mark kennedy]

Heb.6:4-6 & Scripture as a whole - nowhere - teach "if you abandon Christ you abandon that atonement and you can do that only once according to Hebrews 6:4-6".

6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Heb.6:6, NASB)

[d] while

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 6 - New American Standard Bible


"That Ominous “Impossible”

What is the plight of one who has known and experienced the lovely blessings detailed in Heb. 6:4-5, and then he defects? What is his spiritual status should he “fall away”? And “fall away” from what? From the grace that had been bestowed upon them (see Heb. 12:15; cf. Gal. 5:4).

The answer to the question is this. “It is impossible to renew them again unto repentance.” The phrase is frightening. It sounds so bleak. It is bleak! It is an “impossible” endeavor.

The word “impossible” derives from the Greek adunatos, literally “without power.” Note the word’s use elsewhere in this letter (Heb. 6:18; 10:4; 11:6). Any attempt to weaken the term is an exercise in futility.

But, as our original question suggested, the passage does seem to conflict with so many other biblical texts that lavishly describe the unfathomable love and mercy of our wonderful and benevolent Maker.

How is one to reconcile this seeming difficulty?

The key to the solution is to be found in the following phrase. The American Standard Version renders it as follows:

“seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”

The ASV footnote has it: “the while they crucify....” The English Standard Version reads like this: “since they are crucifying once again....”

The translators are attempting to give the English reader a hint as to the force of the original text. Here are some important grammatical facts.

They keep on crucifying Jesus

Both of the expressions “crucify” and “put him to open shame” are present tense participles. In Greek, the present tense has more to do with the type of action, rather than time (the latter being secondary). The present tense represents an action that is in progress, and generally, one that is sustained (see Wallace, 518).

The “crucifying” and “putting to open shame,” therefore, represent on-going actions on the part of apostates.

As long as ...

It is also important to note that present participles normally express action that is contemporary with that of the main verb of the sentence (Wallace, 625), which, in this case is “renew.”

In other words, “while they continue to crucify,” “as long as they are crucifying,” etc., the Son of God, they cannot be brought to repentance.

Why is this the case? Because Christ is the motive for repentance! How could one possibly repent of falling away from the Christian faith, if he believes that the crucifixion of Jesus was a just sentence upon a false Messiah?

As F. F. Bruce expressed it: “Those who repudiate the salvation procured by Christ will find none anywhere else” (149).

Conclusion

And so, it is not the case that Jewish Christians who abandon the faith cannot ever be saved. The tragic reality is this. They cannot be saved if they drift into a state of unbelief and remain that way!

But, as Blackwelder observes, the temporal participles imply that “if persons guilty of such sin will cease it, and repent, they can be reclaimed” (104).

While the passage contains a fearful warning for apostates, it does not suggest a state of utter despair."

Are Apostates from the Faith beyond Repentance?

-------------------------------------------------------

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Oh it clearly suggests a state of utter dispair, if you can't be restored to repentance your going to hell. Abandon Christ and you abandon salvation and that means the fires of perdition in no uncertain terms. There is a hell, there are those who will find themselves there forever and they will never escape.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Oh it clearly suggests a state of utter dispair, if you can't be restored to repentance your going to hell. Abandon Christ and you abandon salvation and that means the fires of perdition in no uncertain terms. There is a hell, there are those who will find themselves there forever and they will never escape.

So you believe apostasy is possible?

 

[mark kennedy]

But if one says David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder, than a license to sin is exactly what a person is espousing (Whether a person wants that to happen or not). People will think that by a preacher saying King David was saved, they can be like a King David and sin like him and be saved, too.

Are you a sinner right now, was David right up until his deathbed?

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes on act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes on act of adultery to be an adulterer.

So it's ok to harbor a murderer, no consequences, no sin, no problem? I so much as look at a woman wrong or call my brother a fool I'm a sinner but harboring a murderer is fine?

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

And of course you have never coveted a woman, a car or house since being converted?

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

So David was lost right up until he confessed his guilt?

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

I have no reason to disagree and wonder what this has to do with the point.

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

#6. David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

#7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

#8. Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some. NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

Still not addressing the point.

You did not listen to what I actually said. I said I would provide the commentary. But seeing it will take time, and I am working on another project that is really important for the Lord, it will have to wait (Lord willing). If you cannot patient, I cannot help that. if you don't wan't to discuss other simple verses like James 2:24, I cannot help that, either.

We talked about James 2 and you ignored the context. We talked about Hebrews 6:4-6 and not once did you even address the verse, let alone the context. You cannot help me understand thise verses or any others because you have no concept of an exposition. The point and proposition is based on Hebrews 6:4-6, so address your own topic. The text in it's natural context will do nicely. For a guy that quotes Scripture ad infinitum, you sure know how to avoid a key text endlessly.

 

[mark kennedy]

So you believe apostasy is possible?

I believe apostasy is all too common, it's just not a sin committed by believers. The definition is the exact opposite. Still waiting on Hebrews 6:4-6.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Are you a sinner right now, was David right up until his deathbed?

Are you saying that David sinned up until his deathbed?
If so, then prove with Scripture that David was a sinner up until his deathbed.
But if so, does that prove that all men of God had sinned as a way of life?
Oh, and no; I am not sinning right now. Are you?
Do you not believe it is not possible to stop sinning?
If not, then please read your Bible: 1 Peter 4:1-2, 1 Corinthians 10:13, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Romans 13:14, Galatians 5:16, Galatians 5:24, etc..

You also missed the point I am trying to make.
You said you are not trying to turn God's grace into a license to sin.
But how exactly do you define turning God's grace into a license to sin?
Does it require an excessive sinful lifestyle?
Was David in an excessive sinful lifestyle?
In other words, (not counting his confession) a Christian would have to go beyond what David did?
Can you describe that for us?

So it's ok to harbor a murderer, no consequences, no sin, no problem?

Why are you changing the subject? Do you disagree with the Bible that just one act of murder makes a person a murderer? Do you disagree with the Bible that one act of adultery makes a person an adulterer?

And of course you have never coveted a woman, a car or goyse since being converted?

God's grace is there for us to overcome sin and not to continue to indulge in our sin. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). Again, you are changing the topic. Jesus's words did not change here. He said plainly that if a person looks upon a woman in lust they will be cast bodily into hell fire. He was not speaking metaphorically here.

So David was lost right up until he confessed his guilt?

Yes, for why would a saved and forgiven man ask for forgiveness and ask for his salvation back in Psalms 51? Again, you are ignoring the point I made. 1 John 3:15 says... NO MURDERER has eternal life abiding in them! No murderer would be the murderer who just murdered one time and did not repent. To see the qualification of being a murderer again, see Numbers 35:16-18.

I have no reason to disagree and wonder what this has to do with the point.

Again, you are changing the topic away from the verse. Proverbs 6:32 says that he that commits sin destroys his own soul. Commits sin just one time. They destroy their own soul. This is yet another testimony in Scripture (along with the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30) that says that adultery can cause spiritual death for a person.

Still not addressing the point.

We talked about James 2 and you ignored the context. We talked about Hebrews 6:4-6 and not once did you even address the verse, let alone the context. You cannot help me understand thise verses or any others because you have no concept of an exposition. The point and proposition is based on Hebrews 6:4-6, so address your own topic. The text in it's natural context will do nicely. For a guy that quotes Scripture ad infinitum, you sure know how to avoid a key text endlessly.

And I said it will take time to give you a commentary on this passage. Please listen for a change and have patience, my friend. Love suffers long (i.e. is patient) (See 1 Corinthians 13:4).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Still waiting on Hebrews 6:4-6.

When I said it is going to be a while, I meant sometime next week maybe. As I said, I am busy with another project for the Lord in addition to talking here and doing other things, too. A fuzzy passage like Hebrews 6:4-6 needs to be explained in an exhaustive way whereby you cannot distort it.

 

[ClementofA]

Jason i'm wondering how you'ld address these comments by an admirer of Joseph Prince (perhaps you are familiar with this prolific "Hyper-Grace" author):

"I believe what permanently makes a person a genuine Christian is that he has been born again (by receiving Christ into his heart):

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” John 3:3.

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.John 1:12-13.

I don’t believe a Christian can lose his salvation by sinning/ doing “bad works,” including suicide. Genuine Christians are not saved by good works, and so they cannot lose their salvation by bad works:

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one. John 10:28-30.

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. Galatians 2:20a.

For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. Colossians 3:3. [Sounds pretty secure, doesn’t it?]

Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will neverleave you nor forsake you.” Hebrews 13:5.

To paraphrase grace teacher Paul Ellis—

In John 15:6, when Jesus said, “If anyone does not abide in Me [have a relationship], he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned,” he was NOT referring to unfruitful Christians: they are lovingly “lifted up” by the vinedresser. (In John 15:2, Strong’s G142 - airō, sometimes translated “cut off” or “taken away,” would better be translated in this verse, “1. to raise up, elevate, lift up.”)

In 15:6 he was transitioning to warn those who refuse to believe that he is the Son of God. He was describing those who are looking for life outside of the true vine.

John 15:2 encourages Christians. John 15:6 warns non-Christians. (See Ellis’s discussion here.)

I was Arminian for many years, but now I am happy to proclaim, “once saved, always saved.” "

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I gotta sleep; Hopefully, I will be back later today (God willing).

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Since you initially cited Heb 6, (but now I see you in correction you actually meant Heb 10) regarding the atonement which I have no problem with. But regarding Heb 6:6, I pointed out that in v.6 the words translated as 'crucify' and 'shame' are Greek present tense participles more accurately translated as crucifying and shaming. This verse interprets itself because it states 'it is impossible to renew them to repentance' SINCE they are crucifying and shaming Christ. Those actions demonstrate ongoing rebellion instead of a posture of repentance and hence no forgiveness.

So your interpretation is as long as the rebellion is on going there is no forgiveness (present tense?) Is this really saying anything worth saying? Of course if there’s no repentance there is no forgiveness. The point is the scripture says it’s impossible ( futurw) to renew them AGAIN to repentance. That’s talking about the future. That’s the warning.